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Most people online are looking to learn something new. At one point I focussed on resolution and detail, then sound, lighting, story and script writing, legal/IP, editing/post, advertising, etc. This thread is titled,"The Skin Tone Holy Grail". It implies learning about what are great skin tones and how to achieve them. While it is reasonable to point out that certain cameras have better or worse skin tones, the spirit of the thread is to learn 1) what are great skin tones and 2) how to achieve them for various cameras and conditions. Many posts are argumentative for the sake of argument and ego and don't contribute anything significant to learning how to achieve great skin tones. To be more productive, this forum could use moderation. That would start with no more antagonistc posts by the site owner, who leads by example, and by said site owner to maintain etiquette and politely keep threads on topic when they dissolve into unproductive arguments.

What JCS said was challenging, but lafilm has made it much worse with his comments, there is no need for such confrontational attitudes from anyone. Especially in that tone. It's fair for people to judge from their own conclusions, different eyes see different things. At least be civil about it.

You asked why we make a big deal of skin tones. We've taken the time told to break it down for you. Now you seem dismiss it as a luxury too rich for your blood. Not sure why you brought the subject up the first place unless it was to tell us why it doesn't matter to you. Of course writing and directing should take a front seat - at any budget. Not a groundbreaking discovery, but you asked a tech question, hence tech answers. People with 1k + cameras usually won't have the budget to consider complex production design but next to writing / directing your one of strongest cards is how you capture a human face. And there are many a cheap camera in the DSLR / Mirrorless market that can capture great skin tones - if you take the time to figure it out. A little applied knowledge is not above anyone's pay grade. So do we care about seeking the "Holy Grail" of flesh tones? If so, ask away. I've gotten great advice on this forum on how to unlock the A7s color profile.

​I just thought your initial post was "challenging", which is fine. Everybody needs to be challenged. Your input into these topics are very useful (sometimes beyond my brain receptors) so thank you. I thought lafilm's reply was inappropriate and could of potentially fuelled a few emotions of the more opinionated members. Everyone makes mistakes when they get angry eh? Ebrahim is a top guy, he is spot on. Topics like this are important to follow for the technical check-list - I'm trying to make a buying decision and this post involves those very cameras. These camera are very very close in DR. What matters is the price difference as per performance. Great sign for the future!

Ah, I can finally post, my first post had to be authorized first. It's there now, but probably no one has read it. I'm the guy who wrote to Andrew on Vimeo about the Frame Guide thingie. Thought it could be fixed by turning it off and using center weighted metering, but of course it couldn't. Strangely enough, I think once or twice, after playing around with all the settings, switching the camera on and off, the problem was gone, but well, I don't feel like doing that every time I need a usable video. What amazes me: that hardly anyone notices it. I could be faulty units, alright, but somehow I have the feeling that it's a general issue. For instance: the impressive footage that Andrew brought (Lisbon) is mostly tripod-still and here I think the problem doesn't occur. I tried my best to make it reproducible and found the following method: I put a dark turquois background on my PC and had enough white areas for contrast, too, and then I tilted the camera up and down towards it. At one point it starts to shift the exposure and if at that point you stop the tilting and just move the camera ever so lightly, you get the flickering. So the camera probably keeps switching madly between two exposure values. Of course, if it's perfectly still, it wouldn't do that (at least that's my thinking). My impression revolving around that: the NX1 is mainly a stills camera and no video camera. I think they mostly worked on that part (and I really do love it as a stills camera, I find the image not really inferior to my D800 and it has the tiltable screen which makes shooting that much more interesting in terms of framing IMHO). Then they thought: oh look, 4K video is the new hype, let's do it, we have the processing power. See also in terms of the not so great video features. Poor histogram, missing flat profile. So, unless we get some hackers to make a Magic Lantern for the NX1 (for which it would be absolutely marvelous due to the fast CPU), I kind of doubt they will deliver in terms of video. And personally, I'd rather not wait for that, I can always come back later, IF this happens. Over the last few weeks, I've tested first the GH4 of which I just didn't like the picture and the tiny, plasticky lenses, then the a7s which I thought had terrible ergonomics (and I just don't like Sony as a company with all their attitude towards an exclusive network and such), but a picture you could hardly break. I'm not a great professional in terms of lighting and such, it's just too much for me and with the Sony you can really shoot in every situation and get clean footage. I mean, it IS made specifically for video which the NX1 is not IMHO. So, I will send the Samsung back and rebuy the a7s. 4K is nice and everything, but I really prefer the dynamic range of the Sony (and I really do believe that the NX1 doesn't have impressive DR like many are saying; though it might be software related or even probably is) and the larger sensor for that shallow DoF. I also think that 4K introduces a plethora of problems into the footage once things start moving and that the technology just isn't there, yet. And most cameras probably don't even have the processing power to handle it properly. Which the NX1 would have, but I doubt it will be happening. With the next model possibly, but even with that I'm not too optimistic. Just my couple of cents.

​Those are my objections too. I am merely guestimating DR, but I've shot with a lot of cams, including GH2, and the NX1's DR doesn't seem good. Weird because NX1 still shots were tested at 14 stops and it's a big modern sensor. GH2 doesn't even have a good DR, and it seems equal to or better than NX1. I've noticed too the evf and oled don't match well and neither accurately reflects what you see once you computer plays off the card. I'm worried I'm outside of the return window, hope not, I can't wait and hope Samsung tries to address this. What a disappointed first firmware upgrade right? All these glaring issues and they just nibbled around the corners with the upgrade.

One thing I'm surprised that more people aren't trying is Sony's own LA-EA4 A Mount to E Mount adapter.. in theory you could attach the Tamron 24-70 in Alpha mount to the A7S. I literally have seen no one try this.. but if the lens works at all I'm willing to bet it will be less buggy and cheaper overall than the Metabones. Of course you'd have to find a suitable stabilized alternative to the 70-200 as well (would have to be a Sigma or Tamron in this case).

​It's a big deal in narrative. Even with make up, we still need an accurate chip. So when we dial in the face our backgrounds aren't AWOL. I work mostly episodic TV. We have ridiculously tight turn around times. They like cameras that have less fiddling and grade time in post (saves them $$). It's the reason why Alexa and C300's have been dominating TV. I I'd say they comprise 80 percent of my work and it's not because of the resolution. I've been on many a shoot for broadcast where they use 5D's because they love the colors. Granted, you're right about Canon being saturated and warm, but post finds it easier to dial down a richer signal than boost a thin one.

About 11 usable stops for 1Dc seems consistent with Adam Wilts review from March 2013. When he stretches it in post he gets to 13 stops. Doesn't really matter. The point here is that Canon Log is a beautifully designed picture profile specifically for 8bit after carefully evaluating both technical as well as psycho visual aspects with many screenings before experiences DPs. There is a DR craze going on with the false notion that a camera is supposed to capture everything from the darkest shadow to the brightest highlight. Welcome to amateur hour. Just as the photographer/cinematographer carefully selects his/her framing, he/she also carefully select what light to include. Blown out highlights should be beautifully rendered. Light falling into shadow creates drama. It should be obvious that both the Canon 1Dc as well as the A7s should be able to create satisfactory images. The error will fall on the operator. The 1Dc captures the image internally to CF-cards with no fuss, which is nice.

jcs, For some reason Andrew is not getting through to you people. so (again) I will translate whats happening. The guy who owns this website just spent some serious time with the 1 DC, and as with all smart people, attitudes and opinions change..as a person gets more experience, gets older, wiser, more educated, etc..etc..Tests come and go..new tests, re-tests..and the dude does it his way because its his site. I know, it took an 8 year college education to decipher that information. As new tech reaches the owner of this site (or old tech) and he gains experience with said 'gear'...his opinion and statements (wether you like it or not) are apt to change. Again, this happens with intelligent people. I have nothing to gain by defending Andrew, (he can be confrontational himself at times..like with me)...however its tiresome to come on this website and have to scroll through the dribble of confrontational people like you...People keep continually challenging this dude on his own fucking site. Its a waste of everyones time. Andrew obviously is getting something out of dealing with idiots like you, or he would be banning people left and right. Maybe he likes a challenge, likes an argument, or whatever..however I believe he is costing himself really cool and interesting people in the industry from joining this website..when they come on here and read this bullshit...time and time again. I see it as a waste of time to challenge a dude on his own website. Get your own fucking site and challenge yourself. Yes, the 1 DC is superior to the a7s...it's also a lot more expensive, and should be. And the site owner owes you nothing. Zero. Nada. No explanation. Now go watch "Roadhouse" with a gin and tonic w/ xanax chaser.

Thanks for the review. I pondered the Shogun for my A7s but then decided at the extra expense, etc., I'd sell the whole lot and get something else. Also, the stealth of the A7s gets lost with the Shogun. What Atomos needs to do, like you mentioned, is make a small 4k recorder like a Blade that I can velcro or screw on to my cage and call it day. Also, the fact that Atomos don't have an HDMI lock or hood, is disappointing. How were they expecting us to use it. Even with full size HDMI, the last thing you want is a lost connection during a take. It will happen. Andrew, you may want to consider a small compact cage. I can't recommend the Movcam enough. Not much bigger than the camera, braces the Metabones adaptor so there's absolutely no jiggle, and the HDMI and sound cable lock works like a charm. You can than throw a ball mount on the 1/4 20 or 3/8" holes and not worry about wonky shoe mounts. The only mod I did to mine is buy a new handle with NATO rail so I can pack it away more tightly by popping the handle off quickly. Sorry about your Metabones issues. I have a more recent iteration (from September) and have absolutely no issues talking to my EOS lenses. AF is still slow as expected. Interesting conclusions about the color science. Does the color science in the A7s work the same, better or worse through HDMI than internal 1080p? I've been playing around with pre-sets and been finding you really must boost the saturation in S Log to get a decent grade. Perhaps 8bit is just too thin for boosting it in post without shadow noise penalties. I actually get my S Log closer looking to Canon log out of the box. I've been also using PP6 a lot and getting very nice colors. Something tells me S Log was really made for a more robust codec.

For video, Canon rates the 1DC at 12 stops. Sony rates the A7S at 15 stops. In lab conditions with the Xyla 21 chart, the 1DC gets around 12 and the A7S around 14. For useable DR Samuel and MacGregor got 12 for the A7S and by their metric of useable DR would expect the 1DC to be 11 stops (dropping 1-2 stops measured for useable DR). Asking us to look at your examples without modifying them to explore useable DR doesn't make sense, as we'd most certainly make changes for any real work. Even so, your examples generally show more useable DR with the A7S. Comments that imply our eyes don't work are unprofessional, immature, and antagonistic. If you'd like to create drama for page views vs. an honest search for truth, wherever it may lead, how can we take anything you say seriously?

​Make's a lot of sense, I like the natural as well as the filmic look. Thanks for posting.

I preferred the cat video.

​I'm thinking exactly the same thing. I love the C100 with recorder. Always wanted the 1dc(too much $). Thinkin now of settling for A7s but if I can get a similar price on a c100......hmmm

you caught some beautiful light on your video, i think its one of the best things you have ever shot for my tastes reminded me the "hunters in the snow" http://www.most-famous-paintings.org/86810/The-Hunters-in-the-Snow-(Winter)-1565-large.jpg

Well this blog IS heavily opinion based, just look at the 1DC dynamic range discussion vs the A7s, everyone has a different opinion about which camera has more DR. Andrew would be better off just to go outside and shoot something pretty with his 1DC so we can stop pixelpeeping.

​Yeah, opinions do change fast at this place. But so does technology, so what are you going to do? I'm biased because I have a new A7s here with me, Andrew may be biased because he has a new 1D C there with him. Plus I just dislike Canon with a passion, so bias +1. I need to stop writing and focus on actually using my camera now.

Just watched that also and was really impressed. On a similar note, can't say enough about Abbas Kiarostami:

Thanks everyone for responses! ​No, absolutely not. 1080p will be fine for now. ​I would say that functionality is the best thing about A7. From what I see, it was really created as a camera for serious video shooters. Maybe Sony didn't quite deliver the video quality we expected from that sensor, but overall, its OK. Could be better, though. In my country there aren't any extra deals like in the USA. I will be looking for a used one, because new is out of my budget. ​To be honest, everyone - especially on EOSHD - is saying that Canon DSLRs (apart from 5DM3 and 1D C) are obsolete and almost dead in terms of video. I really don't want to take that road, especially considering that I mostly do stills nowadays and stills on Canon APS-C aren't something great right know (sensor is old). Nikon and Sony are way ahead in this area. 70D would be worth considering if it would cost around ~700$, but for 1149$ I would rather go full frame with A7. One great thing about Canon is Magic Latern, as you mentioned. Although I'm wondering if is it really stable and can be used on serious jobs? ​In stills area I know what I'm doing and what type of photography I'm pursuing. Here are some examples: All done with a camera that now costs ~300$, so I really can push my gear as hard as I can With film, we'll see. I want to shoot a short story this year, but also try to get into commercials, web series etc. ​I would totally buy A5100 if it had EVF! However, if A6000 would have XAVC-S... there is a rumor that we'll see A6100 next year, with XAVC-S. One thing that I particullary like about A6000 is AF. I played with A6000 twice in the shop and wow, this AF is really great. EVF is ok, slightly better than in my A35. One thing that worries me is 1/160 x-sync. It is always better to have 1/200 or 1/250 (A7). Talking about "try before you buy" - it is hard. You can check some things in shop, but only few of them. I mean, the camera shows you true inner-self in real life situations, on set etc. When I was playing with A6000 I cannot even record anything to SD, because shop clerks told me that it is prohibited in their shop. RX10 and FZ1000? I would rather stay with interchangeable lens camera.

http://www.eoshd.com/2014/07/25-ways-sony-a7s-trumps-canon-1d-c/ i guess opinions change, but based on the stuff you pointed out there i'd still opt for the a7s, especially given the price :/

​l Hey, insightful! Thanks for these thoughts.

I think if you're still developing I'd recommend a cheap M43 Panasonic body with a set of used M43 fast prime lenses; 12, 24, & 45mm. Small, affordable, and will cover just about everything you might want to shoot except for extreme wide and long. Good for video and stills. I believe primes are better for learning how to shoot. Zooms allow you to develop too many bad habits at the beginning. Or, maybe an Olympus body; depending if you think the 5-axis stabilization is a big value for whatever you're doing. ​

That's asking for a grade rather than a correct, and I think that's a bit over saturated for a neutral base line. You can go further if you want, but it just becomes hyperactive in colour, and sacrifice hue accuracy to get that level of colour. etc

​I've heard Cinema5d getting incredibly criticised on the Internet regarding the lab tests. I personally have no idea if they are right or not. Where are they wrong? ​Another cool solution I've seen away from the hotshoe is the Edelkrone Modula 3 upwards. It's a shoulder based rig with a classic camcorder grip, the Shogun to the left (so it's in front of your face) and a mount option at the back to fit in an external device, such as extra power. It seems like the most intuitive solution I've seen... The hot shoe mount seems like a pain.

In that case I'll be very careful about mentioning the Falklands

​They are wrong.

The S-Log 2 A7s image is better than the 1DC Log image imho, the 1DC sample you posted has clipping, and it's simple and easier for me to correct the A7s image. And a bit more punchy The first all you need is levels settings. Rec.709 with just 1 pass of levels

Thanks Cosimo! I got an Isco blue ultrastar. It fits perfectly. However I'll be doing surgery on my Sankor (like you did) to test it out. I'm not liking the Isco because it doesn't flare as well. Sharp, but I want more flares.

What anamorphic did you put inside the FM?Thanks for sharing, enjoy!!!​

huge update with almost all the missing chapters. Two more to go!

I still think for us jack-of-all-trades (masters of none) shooting with >$1k cams, it's okay to put accurate skin tone a bit down on the list of priorities. If we're close, that's fine. Should we put skin tone above production design, writing, directing, or editing for example? I'd rather take an opportunity to implement an incredible story in a slightly technical flawed way than to implement a flawed idea in a technically incredible way. That's just my approach at the level I'm at. As mentioned, some folks have the luxury or inclination to focus on the intricacies. You know that ridiculous saying, "It's above my pay grade?" Well...

Lovely job! The first few shots in the forest are epic, and I do love the film look. A7S seems to lend itself to a very filmic tone I think. The musician reminds me of Daughter... It's a shame the Shogun is so big! It makes the package look quite unwieldy

If only one lens for the A7S, the Sony SEL18200 (18-200mm F3.5-6.3) is excellent. Autofocus, IS, complete zoom range for just about every shot. If zooming while shooting, auto ISO works well. F3.5-6.3 isn't an issue as the camera works well at higher ISOs. Here's what the A7S+SEL18200 looks like in low light, with many different light colors, at 1080p60 (slowed to 24p in post). This is an APS-C lens, so not full frame, however this works well for handheld as rolling shutter is reduced. For full frame and shallower DOF, the Canon 24-105 F4L looks great. Lots of folks report the Commlite adapter at ~$99 works well (or at least as good as MB). Getting a nice prime in the F1.2-2.0 range is also worth it for super shallow DOF. Used Nikon fast prime lens are pretty popular for the price (Nikon to NEX adapters are also low cost). If you want to do much still photography, consider Sony FE primes so you'll get autofocus (e.g. Sony-Zeiss 55mm F1.8).

The 24-105 on the Sony is going to auto focus slower than it would on a native Canon. You already sold the NX1 for workflow issues, which should tell you something It looks like you RUN a recording studio, so will you have time to manually set focus, exposure, etc. I can tell you that using two system, I have Sonys and Panasonics ruins many shots for me because my 53-year-old brain doesn't move between menu systems as well as it used to. What I've learned in the last couple of weeks is these cameras, as nice as Cine-D and s-log might be, are NOT RAW cameras. You have to have the experience and skill to set exposure EXACTLY RIGHT. There is little you can do in post. In short, getting the right exposure on your GM1 or EM1 will do more than having an A7S improperly exposed. The Sony's have fantastic auto-focus in good light, but I find they struggle indoors. The Panasonics too. Again, if you're going to manually do everything IGNORE all this. But if you have to be realistic, pick one camera platform and get lenses that are made to autofocus with the camera and you have image stabilization.

sometimes a great director comes up from nowhere, watch this movie shot with anamorphic zeiss lenses killer scenario killer images makes you want to go out and shoot

Fuzzy, sorry if my posts are coming off pedantic. You're making a case that skin tones aren't that important. I'm providing many facts (which you can verify for yourself) to make the case that skin tone color is indeed the most import element in your thread "the skin tone holy grail". Back when the 5D3 was released the big issue was it was too soft. I showed that with post sharpening it was pretty good (lots of folks disagreed; many felt post-sharpening was invalid and the camera should be sharp straight from the camera). I spent a lot of time looking for a camera that provided better native resolution and went with the FS700 when the SpeedBooster came out. After many projects with feedback from many people, it was clear that people preferred the look of the Canon over the Sony. There were indeed comments on the 5D3 being too soft for some shots, but overall people love the look of the 5D3 over the FS700+SB. The FS700 still provides value with up to 240fps 1080p (ish) slomo. As I read about lots of different cameras, the recurring pattern for what people love the most is skin tones. We are emotional beings and we evolved color vision, at least in part, to read emotion through skin tone color. Researching the best cameras, I found the same pattern: they produce skin tones which evoke a positive emotional response: "I like it." "I love it!". In narrative and commercials too, color sets the mood, helps tell the story, and conveys emotion at a deep level. Hi Jonesy- Blackmagic cameras have indeed gotten good reports for skin tones, though I haven't used them. A big part of the filmic look is highlight behavior of the camera/sensor and even more important: lighting for narrative (emotion). I have started paying very careful attention to scenes that look really 'filmic'. Even that ARRI Alexa and Red Dragon can look 'videoish' with bright lighting and resulting harsh highlights. Combine such lighting with an oversharp image and you've got the video look. Notice how often narrative scenes have very little lighting, with the most lighting on the face and eyes. The challenge I've had with Sony cameras, especially the FS700, is that after setting proper WB and exposure, even tweaking WB in post (including 3-way), parts of the face can look good/correct, but other parts are too yellow/orange/green/blue and don't look right. So now you have to do secondary color correction for those areas. Time consuming. The final results tend not to look as good as Canon or Panasonic. The A7S is better, but still requires more work vs. the 5D3 or GH4. For video, in my experience Panasonic cameras work pretty well for skin tones, to the point that I didn't worry about them. They just worked. For stills, in my experience Canon looks much better than Panasonic. It wasn't until using Sony cameras and getting feedback from others regarding skin tones that I started looking at skin tones in more detail. I was curious why so many top productions used ARRI cameras when it was only 2.8K/3.4K max resolution. The result of much reading was that ARRI provides the best color and skin tones. How do we know it's the best? We look at what people use when cost is not an issue, which cameras were used in the top grossing/award-winning films, etc. This lead to learning more about color and skin tones. So while many cameras can look great, cameras which look great with the least effort are the most useful and cost effective. It's also why Canon drives Andrew crazy releasing cameras with very limited features which outsell all the other brands with more features. Canon hasn't had to compete on features so much as they compete mostly on (skin tone) color.

After shooting and editing extensively with the 5D3 (H.264 + RAW), Sony FS700, GH4, and A7S, based not only on my personal opinion, but on feedback from actors/models/clients, cameras which produce better skin tones are preferred. I found this out by shooting the same scenes with multiple cameras and reviewing the results with others. Doing research online I found that skin tones were the single most important element for cameras used to make money. Resolution, frame rates, viewfinders, ergonomics, etc., are all very important too, but skin tones are number one. Skin tones affect emotion, and emotion is used to tell a story or sell a product. What cameras provide the best skin tones? ARRI and Canon. What cameras are used the most professionally? ARRI and Canon. What cameras are used the most in Oscar winning films (last few years)? ARRI. What DSLR was used most in feature films? Canon (5D, 7D, 1D): http://shotonwhat.com/?s=5D. Why did the C100/C300 far outsell/outrent the FS700, even though the FS700 has way more features (and can even look full frame with a SpeedBooster)? C100/C300 produce better skin tones with less effort. In the end, it's possible to get similar, sometimes even better (rare/unusual lighting conditions) skin tones from the GH4 and A7S vs. the 5D3, however on average, the 5D3 requires a lot less time and work. How do we know when skin tones are better, when it's so subjective? Shoot the same scene with multiple cameras then show the results to multiple people for feedback. Some DPs do a ton of testing to figure this out before shooting a feature: http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2013/10/arri-alexa-vs-canon-c500/

@nahua & @Rudolf quite surprised to hear your comments re the C/Y mount Zeiss lenses as I've only ever heard glowing comments about them. Indeed, there's a 259 page (and growing) thread all about them on the Red User's forum in which there's nothing but love for them. Still, it's all personal preference at the end of the day!

There is still a bit more micro blocking with A77II in fast-motion sequences versus the A7S. You can see a little of that in the penultimate shot of the van passing (I don't include such a shot with the A7S in this sample, but I've done it enough at this point to know it's not a serious issue.) Also, as you probably noticed, the A7S definitely has more detail. As for latitude in post, both are now on XAVC-S and seem to behave rather similarly when doing color corrections. I'll have no problem cutting these two cameras together and outside of pixel peepers and large projections, a normal person probably wouldn't notice the difference. For a web spot I would have no problem using the A77II in a pinch. The biggest problem with the A77II was nailing focus. For some reason the Zoom to Focus doesn't really improve the clarity of the image. It looks like they just took the screen information and made it larger on the A77II. This is implemented much better on the A7S, which shows more detail on the enlarged image. To make sure these were both in proper focus I had to attach a SmallHD screen. It's funny. These past couple weeks I've been editing a project I filmed two years ago on an FS100 and a Canon 5DMkIII. Both those cameras were great for their time, but my god the fast motion micro-blocking on the FS100 is awful (nice image tho). Then there's the 5D with an image so soft I constantly think it's out of focus. (Note: I recently sold my FS100) Both the A7S and A77II are better modern options.