Leaderboard

With which cameras? On what settings? Makes a bigger difference to which parameters? I'm more of a writer and director than a cinematographer, so I tend to evaluate images by feel. Looking at 10-bit, I see a much greater depth, tonal clarity, and a richer palate of colors than any 8-bit 4K. This is exacerbated by everyone shooting their cameras super flat, even though we've known for years that shooting 8bit codecs flat ruins their tonality and definition in the midtones--ie, skintones. In this test, for example, there's a huge, marked difference between internal 4k and the externally recorded files. https://vimeo.com/101350338 It's not something easy like just sharpness, either. It's an overall aesthetic difference that's easy to notice but hard to explain. The aspect we CAN put a number to is dynamic range. If you squeeze 12 stops of dynamic range into an 8-bit bucket, you only have 21.3 tones per stop. This gives you muddier tones with thinner gradients. With 10-bit, on the other hand, you get 85.3 different tones for each stop of dynamic range. That's huge. It also affects the richness and accuracy of your colors, since the same color with a slightly different tone is in fact a different hue. To me, this also gives a sense of richer detail since the shadows (a huge visual cue for resolution) have better tonal definition. I feel like we got caught up in this whole 4K thing to get rid of moire, aliasing, and manufacturers pawning off upscaled SD garbage on us instead of proper HD. Now we've gotten rid of those problems but forgotten what we wanted in the first place: a cinematic look. And in that regard, bit and color depth were always bigger obstacles than resolution. My two cents.

I really want Canon to succeed, it's for our own benefit. If Sony gets a monopoly on sensor design we will suffer eventually. Imagine if Sony decided to stop working with Nikon. Where would that leave them? Canon are dangerously close to becoming a Sony customer. Already are for some models. Canon have an innovative CMOS division and even make the machines to make the sensors. They have 4K on a full frame sensor (1D C) it just needs to go into a more innovative camera and at a price we can afford. Currently on dynamic range and sensor capabilities (both manufacturing and end product) they are behind Sony. Not good. The joke about Taylor Swift fixing stuff at Apple is an internet meme. If you didn't get it, no need to say "EOSHD is off his meds again". But maybe join this generation. I bet Canon found it funny... all 11 employees under the age of 85 that is.

JVC did. They have a Micro Four Thirds mount camera with Super 35mm sensor in it. Cooke, Panavision, etc. and they already have made a S35 camera, it's called the Varicam S35! In the consumer market there's a ton of lenses... all the APS-C and full frame stuff in the world for example. If Panasonic want to sell lenses like that there's nothing to stop them building some or outsourcing the work to Sigma. It has to make economic sense though. ​We don't need that now we have the Speed Booster XL for 1.5x crop in 4K and 1.28x for stills. Far better. The key thing for me is how Panasonic are going to compete with Sony. How would an updated GH5 with 2x crop sensor be better than the A7R II for either 4K or stills exactly? They HAVE to up their game on the sensor side.

Yay, some love for the G7! Have you tested the actual crop factor of the G7 Andrew? According to Cameralabs it doesn't crop as much as the GH4 in 4K mode. Kinda weird, because that would mean it's not a 1:1 pixel crop. http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Panasonic_Lumix_G7/ Panasonic Lumix G7 coverage for 4k video G7 4k UHD crop indicated by outer edge of red frame. GH4 4k UHD crop indicated by inner edge Image: Cameralabs

I hate to say it but who cares about canon? no really. who cares. They are just a company that makes tools, not a religion. This aspiring cinematographer you speak of doesn't hold a soul contract on canon, neither does shooting canon mean anything is going to improve for them all else being the same. If canon can't keep up, that is nothing to cry over it. If canon does not want to keep up, that is also nothing to cry over. Let canon be canon. They are no longer the king of imaging, and haven't for some time, and arguably they have never been a force in the high end video market either. These are just tools. use whatever works and just be glad you have choices. stop the brand fanboysm. it is childish.

​Well Digital Bolex with tiny sensor does look great. It proves that a film like dynamic range (13+ stops), global shutter, etc. can be done with a smaller chip. But they need to give us the choice. Would Canon and Nikon be anywhere near as successful if they had never launched their digital full frame ranges and stuck to crop formats? It doesn't help that Micro Four Thirds is a non-standard as far as cinematography goes, either. It's not Super 16mm so out go most of those lenses (vignetting) and it's not Super 35mm so you miss out on the corners of your Cookes, etc. It's a very creative camera for adapting these lenses, yes... but not optimal. 2.3x crop is not my favourite look from my full frame lenses. There's always Speed Booster but if Panasonic did S35 we could use that for full frame... important thing is we'd have the choice.

@Jordan Drake Skintones are actually manageable using cinelike D. But have been working on my workflow quite some time... This is an example just using my LUT (Before, below after LOG LUT and further grading) Notice the green hue on her skin (especially the last picture). It's completely gone after grading. I really would love to see a test between my workflow and V-LOG. Here's the link: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?336957-dLOG-(a-vLOG-replacement-somehow) @Andrew Reid Congrats to your forum software! Love it.

from http://www.eddavid.tumblr.com Vimeo basically help me with my career- through a small camera test I did called, “Sexy S Log” where I tested s log on the f3 (new at the time) - an influential director and friend found me and got me into higher end commercial work. And so did so many other films I worked on. It is literally the best thing that helps me able to have a career. With that said, I have watched it since 2008 - and since then, I have noticed more and more, that there are many things it can improve. The biggest thing too is that it needs to improve, because right now, the video quality and playback is superior on youtube. Vimeo was started as an alternative to youtube in that it gave higher resolution and less compression than youtube. But youtube caught up. So now more than ever there is less reason to use vimeo than youtube, except for the community that exists there. Basically it’s a social network for filmmakers. And I think they get that - with their “Staff” people always checking out videos and commenting - I love that. You feel like you know them personally. It’s so nice. Anyway here’s a quick list of ways they could improve the interface to make it more successful as a film social network. 1. have a “like” buttons. so people can like comments. or upvote or downvote a comment. a la Reddit. so there are also less, “thank you” short unnessicary comments 2. the homepage should have a feed of all the videos of the people you are following. like a news streams like twitter or facebook. and allow you to hide or mute people you don’t want to follow 3. allow users to quickly create “film festivals” - playlists of content that inspires them. like how spotify does it. and feature the most popular ones. Lilke curation - feature the most popular ones - the people with the most followers. Or have famous filmmakers go on vimeo and find their favorite films, like spotify. 4. improve the search function - it’s still very hard to search for filmmakers 5. update the user page experience - so it’s more customized to the artist. maybe more like imdb. where you can quickly list films you worked on - resume style 6. show location and other things that users have - what cameras, where are they located - do they want to meet up? 7. allow meet up events - film screenings, event invites - to build community - get a bunch of people together to watch films and talk about them. maybe help create a film community in smaller areas. connect people more globally 8. vimeo pro - feature more vimeo pro films - it seems like vimeo pro is where a lot of the effort is going - monitization is always a good thing - but still - for non vimeo pro - maybe still create ads on the page, so that vimeo can focus on the free content as well. 9. mobile friendly - still make it more social network like on the mobile browser. 10. notifications - allow people to know when someone commented easier and your comment is responded to - like eoshd - this helps build community and discussions 11. have a section just for discussion - have more forums - just for talking about filmmaking - again with minor banner ads, whats the harm, right? 12. allow tags to work more efficiently - like twitter. live and die by the hashtags - to quickly allow people to find similar videos 13. like netflix - have other videos if you like this, you might love - to keep people on the site, to discover new videos. the rest of my ideas is hardware based - having faster loading of videos - those are harder issues because that costs a lot of money. the ideas above is expensive too, but maybe a little less. anyway let me know what you think of all this. And I will continue of course to support vimeo - I love how there

   

​This isn't the same or even a similar argument. Kubrick used super fast lenses to deliver on a creative idea on how he wanted to stage the scene. The question is more like: Kubrick - 'If I shoot Fuji stock over Kodak, will anything change?' Forum user - 'Do tests man, but remember that in the grand scheme of things, which stock you use isn't the biggest concern' Kubrick - 'Alright, well at least I know if they don't have enough Fuji stock for my film, I can use some Kodak stock and it won't matter so much' In fact the debate/chat these days is more like this: Filmmaker: 'If I use Kodak Vision2 stock instead of Vision3, am I going to be missing anything..?' Forum user 1: 'Man, Vision2 is so old now, you can't even get grain structure anywhere near that of Vision3. I made the switch to Vision3 not long ago and I would never go back to Vision2' Forum user 2: 'I don't like the colors in Vision3, they're so different to Vision2. I know Vision3 supposedly gives you more dynamic range and better grain structure, but I like the colors so much better in Vision2. I know some people can work with Vision3, but I think for the majority of people, Vision3 is way too hard to get good colors out of' Forum user 3: What happened to Fuji? I used to shoot Fuji stock all the time, but they haven't brought out a stock I've liked in so long. I'm using Vision3, but would happily jump back to Fuji stock if they ever came out with anything I was interested in using. Forum user 4: 'I don't understand the fuss - all the stocks mentioned give you great images - just go out and shoot on what's easiest and cheapest for you to afford. No-one in the cinema is going to be nitpicking whether or not you used Vision2 or Vision3. Yes, there are differences between them, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not that big a deal Filmmaker: 'I'm so confused'

Haha.

Some footage from those Kern-Paillards mentioned earlier.

This isn't intended as a "Content Is King" debate. I'm more interested in how purchasing a camera affects a persons creative decisions. It affects mine certainly. If anything has to be said though, it's better to have an idea and no camera, than actually have a camera with no idea at all.

How is this going !?

I can't believe there is not a Half Life movie and no sequel for years and years, it is almost as if Valve don't like money. Maybe they had their hands full with Steam!

That's actually quite impressive that a band member knew about a GH4. I talk to photographers all of the time who don't have a clue about Panasonic. To your point I agree. The only reason I upgrade is if it makes my job easier working the camera. I'd say we're at that point this year where tech is good enough to "just do it".

I'm a guy that doesn't have any qualms shooting images with a crop more than s35, so the G7 looks like it'll be a great cheap cam to get regardless if I ever put a speedbooster on it. Good to hear about some of the details with the adapter, however. Always nice to know what the options are.

Thank you very much Julian for your support. Yes, testing all LUTs takes quite some time just to switch from one to the other. I think the easiest way to create an automated process to preview all LUTs on a still should be a Photoshop action script. I'll find about it. Ahah, about IWLTBAP, it's a mystery...

​Wow didn't know that! Thought it was 1500+! Personally im much more excited to get a full frame camera than a 4k capable one. Looks like its time to dig into the A7 and find out some more for me.

Julian, I love your test with the LUT 8700 On Premiere Pro I use Lumetri but if I'm right the free plugin LUT Buddy from Red Giant is supported. Maybe it's easier to use than Lumetri.

I've been looking for a cheap package of LUTS that work well with the GH4 and this seems to tick the box Just gave the free 8700 LUT a try on some clips I shot last holidays in Indonesia. Original footage (showing at the beginning of each shot) is shot with the Natural profile, don't remember the exact settings. Didn't make any other adjustments, just put the LUT on top at 100% strength. Looking forward to give the other LUTS a try. Does anyone know a fast way in Premiere Pro to switch between different luts?

I think it's unlikely because they will probably still want to give rich pros a reason to buy the GH4! There's not many reasons! 10bit HDMI, YAGH compatibility for XLR, erm...!

​Yes! I haven't figured out how to calculate the exact crop, but it does. It also means you can use a cheap 0,71x focal reducer Speed Booster knock off and still get S35 probably. The Speed Booster XL is nice of course, but the $100 alternatives suit the G7 budget shooter better I think Thanks for checking Andrew! Even though it is not 4K 1:1 pixel crop, it doesn't seem to add moire/aliasing, according to the test by Cameralabs. If that's the case, I wonder if Panasonic could give the GH4 the new processing method by firmware update...

That will be appealing. Until then there's always the NX1! It won't be before the A7R II does the whole 4K Super 35mm thing first. Sony want our $3200 and I don't blame them. Look at the investment in the tech they have made, it is enormous.

Just tested and yes can confirm that is the case. Crop is less in 4K than on the GH4! How weird!!

I think we all forget that the whole Canon-video thing was really a fluke. Canon is not a video company. They are primarily a STILLS camera firm. As a company they are very conservative. I liken them to Rolls-Royce in the 1950's and 60s.. slow and plodding and selling things that are well-built but 10 years behind times. I personally love Canon and feel the same pain. I would love to buy a new Canon for my film productions but it seems that's not going to happen. I think that when they introduced the 5D Mk3 (which was pretty underwhelming) it became obvious that the MK2 was not a company trend but a fortunate mistake. I fully expect the 5D mk4, when it comes out, will be very modern, in a fashion of a few years ago,

The point is that if you like a brand in general, you own a lot of accessoires for that brand, and you know that a brand can do much better, it makes you angry if their politics unnecessarily create a lose-lose situation for the consumer and themselves. It's also important to speak out against it in public, so Canon knows they are on a bad path. I personally simply don't like the look, menus, mount, history etc of Sony DSLRs that much to switch for 1-2 years until Canon finally have their game together with swivel screens, focus peaking etc.

Did Andrew go off his meds again?

The colours in that video still don't seem as natural or as nice as those shots with your usual cameras though?

m4/3 on s35 is a genius idea. Its been requested by Blackmagic users for years and now when JVC has released it I think a lot of people see the potential. Having s35, m4/3, s16 all in one camera.

I wouldn't be surprised if the future of VR is a cross between a CGI movie experience and a video gaming experience, perhaps in addition to pure CGI movies, and video games (in addition to video games for VR headsets).

I don't know about that. My experience is limited to the GH4, but I can see a huge improvement in detail and noise by shooting 4K scaled to 1080p in post, rather than shooting 1080p in-camera. And in my 8bit vs 10bit comparison tests, it's nearly impossible to tell one from the other on a 10bit monitor until you start to aggressively grade it.

Hohho, the weather is nice there, and Italy is beautiful. I went to Chioggia and Padova once, doing hitchhiking! Great places. Well of course I will stay in London, but you know, nothing is impossible. I was thinking about working with someone remotely as well. Like setting up an FTP server, get a 100/100 broadband and share the project files like that, and do Skype meet ups. Who knows. It wouldn't be the ideal solution at the moment, but I might get into this once. Thanks for the heads up

​I've noticed a huge improvement in skin tones with V-Log L, I've been bitching about Cine-D 'wax face' for some time. I've only shot preliminary tests with 10 bit, but it does look to make a difference in skies. I'll test it more thoroughly this week.

The A7RII isnt even out yet, and for some reason this makes the GH4 (which is now over a year old and a third of the price) insignificant? Do brand new camera releases suddenly mean the previous awesome camera (GH4) isn't awesome enough to film with? I haven't bought a GH4, A7S, NX1, FZ100, LX100, G7.. (or any other 4k mirrorless). Still using my GH3 as the small camera. It does fine, still makes money. Doesnt have V Log or 4k and is just as good as when I bought it 2 and a half years ago. All on cheapo FD lenses. Firmware is a simple equation. Either crippled for product segmentation or promising the world (whilst delivering poorly in other key areas such as battery life!). Let's just buy ALL the cameras and we can have all the firmware we want! I do agree firmware is very important though. Poor firmware affects my creativity. The slow, sluggy speed of the FS7 menus means I have less time to work on the shot. The Monitor LUT dissapears. WHY!? The 1DC (official cinema DSLR champion) doesn't have peaking. And this camera launched for $634,000,345 as a Cinema EOS whatever thingy. "Modern" firmware is the way forward. Samsung has ideas and Blackmagic really seem to be onto a really simple, inutitive, elegant system. Sexy.

While I agree that V-log on the GH4 should be released Asap, since it is already late I kind of disagree on releasing lots of firmware updates. I feel that Samsung should have done more to make the H.265 format more editing software compatible. That is doing its bit for greater sync. The biggest complaint of users was inability to use the codec either completely, or fast enough, and that workflow was seriously hindered. Right now the GH Series only lacks in-body stabilisation and higher ISO. The higher ISO is partially dealt with by faster lenses, that with the new metabones adaptor go all the way up to f.0.8. That's 2/3rd of a stop more light that an f2.8 lens. While I am sure the next in the GH series may consider in-body stabilization, new pistol gimbals have mostly dealth with that too. One can add these, considering the Enormous Price difference betwern Panasonic and its Sony competitors. About the Varicam, well it records in 3 different formats, simultaneously, and has some very interesting in-camera grading options apart from a host of other great features. The good thing about Panasonic from GH2 onwards, is that they seriously listen to user feedback. Only if they would hurry up with the V-log now.

It's all good enough for me at this point. I came up in the days where if you didn't have pro gear it really showed. You had to buy-in to get great IQ. That was high 5 (into 6) figures, easy, now it's in the low 4's. The fact that's there's two less zeros between these cams with pretty much indistinguishable IQ to all but the most discriminating viewer...well, I'm cool with that. You whippersnappers and your expectations! Why, when I was young I had to film uphill in the snow! Both ways.

I can't totally agree on this and weight on the final part sounds a bit bitter. I do agree that Panasonic took a bit too long and that this delay may cost them but I think it's a bit unfair to call out Panasonic like that almost like they were Canon itself. There is a reason why Samsung is doing this. First because they can, Panasonic does not have the same firepower and resources as either Sony or Samsung, Panasonic is much more like Fuji. Secondly because Samsung is the one racing from behind, the one that had no credit in the market so if they were any serious about video, they HAD to show that to the world, so the firmware guerrilla is a big part of that and a way to sustain interest from people. I don't think Panasonic would had been able to offer V-long off the bat, I doubt they had resources or engineers for that, at the time they were already proving the first of its kind, they were the one pushing bounderies. Sony wasn't even able to provide internal 4K in time with the A7s, that's why they pushed the S-log. Sure, after that Panasonic should had start thinking more serious about providing V-log since it was clear that it was a matter of time before 4K was coming to Sony cameras. Panasonic still provided the FZ1000, the LX100 and now the G7, which seems to be an excellent budget choice, all great cameras for the price and feats and only now Sony is catching up on that front. So, from my POV, this is back and forth and Panasonic is a bit late but just that. Panasonic won't come up with a new GH camear every year like Sony is doing with the A7 family. The A7s still doesn't offer internal 4K and it will never do that, and as I said, Panasonic doesn't have that same power to push new products like that. But Panasonic better wake up though. With Sony being able to provice internal 4K, S-log2, IBIS, etc. Sony basically took away most of Panasonic's upside. Panasonic still has the better lens ecosystem but with adapted lens with electronic connectors working as they are with the A7RII, anyone that have Canon glass can easily jump into Sony, just selling their Canon body. So Panasonic better come up with a new sensor, better sensitivity, faster readouts - possibly better slowmo -, IBIS, 4K/slowmo, etc. Panasonic still have a swivel screen, no overheating issue, better battery and some other things but that's barely enough now. Maybe not just a GH camera but an AF as well. I would like Sony to make the rumored A9. They could use their new tech for faster readouts and improved low light. There are 2 alternatives. One would be something like a bigger brother of the A7s with that insane low light capabilities and DR, another, which I think might be interesting as well, would be to make a sensor with more pixels, which would allow them to have lots of PDAF - to work well with electronic adapters - but one that could do 1:1 pixel crop in Super35/APS-C mode in 4K. I think they would need a 24MP sensor, this way you have the option for FF or Super35, in Super35, you would get less rolling shutter and differently from the A7s or A7RII, a true 4K image output. You could even use Metabones to get more light and FF look. Plus, 24MP would be enough for photographers as well. With a bigger body Sony will be able to put a better shutter for faster burst, without the miniaturization limitation that the A7 family faces, it would have better battery life, zero overheating issues and a swivel screen as well. I'm not sure Sony is ready to make the A9, but I think a camera like that would be pretty nice and it would make sense as well, it wouldn't be cheap though but I doubt Canon would be able to respond to that with a possible 5D MKIV or even upcoming EOS-C cameras. Anyway, this is all about competition and this is great for consumers. What more can we expect from the A7s II, the GH5 and what's the next step for Samsung?