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Plenty of people do paid work with 8-bit material. I've shot a number of events and done a few cheap/free broadcast commercials. All were 8-bit, and I go back to the 5d2 in like 2008 or so. All of the spec was either 720/60p or 1080/30p and a minimum bitrate of 50mbps. I've never shot 10-bit or more outside of tinkering with a C300 and a Red a few times. Scratch that - I had a BMPCC for awhile, so I did shoot some raw/prores. But I never did any paid work with it because the workflow didn't jive with my run-and-gun shooting style. People keep repeating things like Netflix of BBC standards, which in most cases apply to them - not everyone. I know people that have shot stuff for Discovery, Nat geo and so on with gear below their published standards. If you're doing stuff for broadcast, then it might be an issue, but if you're shooting weddings or TV spots, its not an issue. I never understand why people criticize specs from their own bubble. If you want a 10-bit camera, this isn't for you. If you want to shoot for 3 straight hours, this isn't the camera for you. Move on. Why keep repeating the same numbnut argument and clogging up this thread? Back to the XH1- I absolutely love Eterna. 24p looks beautiful. I'm much more excited about this camera than the A7III. It looks like a winner. I'm looking forward to mine arriving soon. Chris

In fact, cable TV stations here require BBC/EBU standards, and this is the norm in EU, I know because I did sound on a couple of this last year. Most terrestrial channels ask for 4:2:2 8bit, but most of them are not very anal about it (a couple of years ago a C100 was enough), but on another 2 shows on private stations, they requested 10 bit, so we shot with GH5. A few other jobs I did this year needed top specs as well (a feature documentary we shot C300mkII, and a couple of shorts with Ursa mini pro), and this were just medium to low budgeted jobs. I do not thing that this conversation is relevant here though. Different tools and different needs. The @Alt Shoo expressed his opinion that this specific tool isn't right for his intended use. No one should have been offended by it. This joke about Soderbergh's film will go on forever I guess. If you feel confident do your work with an iPhone 7+, be my guest, no one will judge you, and I support every artistic choice (my favorite films of all time are Italian neo realistic films and indies of all kinds from around the world), but this is not a serious argument for a dozen of reasons, thoroughly discussed on similar threads, or in all the other threads that this arguments out of the blue appears to bring off topic comments and confusion (e.g the thread about the Canon's, which suddenly became an iPhone Vs all the cameras challenge). If I cared about photo and video, and I have to choose between an iPhone 7 or a X-H1, I would choose the latter, in every possible way.

No its not bad. It is market value. Its just that market value has gone up at the rate of specs the last few years. So the "cheap DSLR revolution" isn't exactly around anymore. This cost about the same as a pro video camera did back when the revolution started. We started using cheaper cameras and then started asking for more features in them, features from the expensive cameras. And the companies gave it to us, the prices to And it sometimes seems like we still think we are using cheap cameras just because they are hybrids or still cameras. But in reality plenty of pro video and cinema cameras are cheaper these days. Just thinking out loud.

I’m doing A, B tests with 1DC and GH5S tomorrow and will post my results ASAP!

Iso for Iso, but it looks almost funny how Yuryev's face suddenly becomes the clearest/sharpest at 1600 in GH5

please fellows, lets not encourage shit-posting.. some people are genuinely interested in this camera.. X cinema page up on Fuji's site with a bunch of new videos shot on H1: https://fujifilm-x.com/cinema/

Thanks. We should be releasing a trailer in the next month or so. We are about 60 percent done editing. Had to grab some pick up scenes. For lenses, I like using older ones for NX1. I shot at 2-2.8 split. This camera has some really deep inky blacks, which I love, but using older lenses lowers the contrast, which gives me an extra half to 3/4 stop when used in conjunction with filters. Generally I expose for mood. I use white pro mist/soft fx filters, fog/haze, nets to roll off harsh highlights or under expose to protect important highlights or just look in another direction to avoid them. I've found through testing that I can safely recover about 1.5 stop of shadow detail before the image begins falling apart. But honestly I just let things go dark. I rarely recover shadows. But if i need too, i know i can. If theres something that needs to be seen, I'll generally bring in a light fill bounce/light to bring up levels. I don't rely on bumping up iso. Messes with grain texture too much. I like to keep images clean and consistent. I rarely go above 400 iso. Sometimes 800 if I'm short on time. My thought process with limited DR cameras is to shoot for end goal. WYSIWYG. We were influenced by Netflix Daredevil, which also goes pretty dark. You definitely have to have trust. Producers and Directors get scared of that amount of darkness. I always keep reference images on my phone to show them just in case. Here are some additional images and BTS screens. A rough clip of some pick up shoots. We haven't color graded, stabilized or fine tuned the edit. This is literally something I threw together to see how the scene feels. It's low bitrate to keep size down. The original is really clean. I also use rolling shutter repair on most clips. It helps with motion cadence in my eyes. The fight scene was shoot last year. Again, another rough cut. Test Scene Maya Conner.mp4 Fight Scene Test.mp4

Yeah me 2. It is a shame as the images are really nice, but for a portable camera autofocus would be nice to have for quick run and gun type work. I am waiting on canon as I know only they can get it right from both an ergonomics and image standpoint. I think we just have to pray the ff mirrorless will give us what we have been asking for.

Definitely a case of crossing that bridge when you come to it with regards to what to use when commissioned for a Netflix Original production. The only Netflix spec that I have to concern myself with meeting is the £7.99 a month payment

Had a go of one today. They have badly messed up the ergonomics for video. The silent control panel is a joke... Touch screen items are way too small to accurately select and the scrolling is unresponsive. The exposure comp. button is programmable but you can't assign movie recording to it... there is also no movie record button whatsoever! Strangely you can assign slow-mo frame rate options to the button, and select them any time you want... even in stills mode. But you can't shoot. The movie mode is on the end of the drive selection lever again like X-T2 and it sucks balls. Finger nail grasping, clicking, takes ages... just horrible. Have to go through about 6 clicks to reach the movie mode. Autofocus was poor. Didn't try all lenses though. On the bright side... The stabilisation seemed REALLY effective.

So, I managed to brave the elements and get to the BVE show and have a look at it. First impression is that it was much smaller than I was expecting it to be. Took a snap of it next to a 5D MKIV for comparison and weight wise it was similar too. The interchangeable mount is interesting and the one pictured is the locking EF with in built ND and they also have a speedboosted EF and PL. The crop factor with the speedboosted mount is 1.3 but 1.8 without. That surprised me as I just assumed it was 1.5 to be honest. There is an E Mount adapter too (which wasn't on show) and that option has become more interesting now with the Sigma E Mount ARTs and Fuji doing their cine ones in E Mount too. The dual iso is 800 and 3200 and they told me it's pretty clean at 12800 as a consequence but the proof of that etc... The rear module gives you all the additional SDI connectivity, V Mount battery capability, external power tap, XLRs etc but it the camera is still operable without it if you want to keep the weight/form factor/price down. It has full size HDMI on the main unit so you can connect whatever EVF/Monitor you want. If you go for the grip then it also holds a battery as per the RED handgrip its obviously modelled on but unlike the RED it uses regular Sony NP batteries rather than an expensive proprietary type. The grip does feel like a cheap version of the RED one (cos it is!!!) but its great as a way to keep the cost down power wise as you save the cost of the rear module and the V locks. Power time via the grip is about 30 mins apparently. Talking of non-proprietary, it also uses regular SSD media and does internal ProRes. However, the RAW format IS their own format (but can be transcoded with their own tools) but I'm not sure if its a supported format within Resolve? Talking of BM, I was told that Kinefinity are pitching the camera as a direct competitor to the Ursa Mini Pro though its more RED form factor to me. With regard to support, the plan seems to be swap out units at least during the initial period and I think that's fair enough. Its worth bearing in mind that for those of us who were outside of the US when being early adopters of the RED ONE it is no different. First impression is that if you are in the EVA-1/C200/URSA Mini Pro then its certianly worth looking at Kinefinity if you have a distributor in your country. People are very wary of the support aspect but to be honest, the distributors who take it on are WELL aware of that and so, conversely, you might well end up getting BETTER service as they seek to overcome that objection. Bottom line is that if this camera had a different name on it then there would be a LOT more buzz about it. Full details of packages here https://www.proav.co.uk/cine/cameras/kinefinity

On the end where he is using that duster on the green screen he says there IS a big difference between 8 bit and 10 bit internal, compared to external, and states he doesn't know why??? WTF LoL. How many of us shoot with a external recorder, not many of us. So to me he is Way off to advertise there is no reason to go 10 bit, or even 4.2.2 video! If that was the case nobody in the world would ever buy a External Recorder. Atomos would be out of business. Now I know he states IF you don't use a LuT or basically edit the footage, well who doesn't do that other than grandma. I used to follow that guy years ago, but he seems to not be as reliable as he should be to state a bunch of stuff on there that he is not a wiz at. And lets face it hardly anyone is a wiz at all aspects of video.

Yes and what is that reason? Genuine question. The canon 1dc does 8 bit after all. I see the other thread everyone ranting and raving about its image quality.

Don't be so pessimist : ) Non-intra 200mbps should be enough to overcome eventual weak bit depth issues... :-)

@CastorpDefinitely agree about frustration / confusion. So many people seem to see cameras as being as good as their best spec, and ignoring the weaknesses of a particular camera, but I think the opposite is true, a camera is only as good as the weakest feature it has that you use. I bought a the Canon XC10 which was almost universally hated because it didn't do anything spectacularly well but also didn't have any amazingly bad weaknesses, and yet people rave about the GH5 when I eliminated it immediately as it can't be trusted to focus. Partly this is people having different requirements (eg, if you use manual focus), but also it's due to people not taking into consideration the practicalities of real-world use. In purchasing my setup for my own personal projects I eliminated so many cameras - even if a camera shoot RAW 16K in 16-bit with 20 stops of DR it would be useless if it can't reliably focus (GH5), or ran out of battery (A7SII), or its really heavy and you're too exhausted from carrying it to use it (complete BMPCC rig), or you get hassled by security or they won't let you in the venue because your camera is too large for working without a shooting permit (C100), or you don't have it because it's too expensive and you can't afford it in the first place (1DXII), or many of the above (1DC, Red Raven, URSA mini, Kinefinity, Digital Bolex, etc etc etc...)!

I shoot a big variety of things but I tend to most enjoy doing dark stuff. I think this is, while not necessarily my favourite work due to the issues we had in the production, the most visually accomplished; And on the flipside, this one was shot in one day, had a ton of fun and I'm extremely happy with it, even though it's not technically as accomplished: Both are NSFW and contain violence.

https://www.proav.co.uk/nsearch/?q=kinefinity+terra+4k+cam From a reputable UK seller! Looks like they have a lot of different configs

The entry level to mid, are probably the biggest market in cameras right now, and I guess always was. In the sales charts that people post from time to time, at the top 20 are cameras JUST released (so there are people waiting for these) and the rest are older models selling for cheap. That no one buys cameras anymore, its a big fat lie, actually CIPA members sold almost 12.000.000 ILC cameras (system cameras, both dSLR and mirrorless) last year, and a similar number the year before, and it seems that this number has been stabilized. With all the new cameras we are having this year, it may exceed that number. And there are other camera manufacturers that do not belong to CIPA as well. All the statistics are here, if anyone can waste 10 minutes of his/hers time, will realize that the only think that is going down, is the point and shoot market which honestly, their mobile phones are better for the intendent use. The market has corrected itself, after the "wild" years of the abundance, that everyone and their mom - literally - owned a dSLR (closets full of them at the moment!), that never did more than 99 clicks, now people that truly care about the image buy cameras. http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html The camera phone revolution, I believe will bring more young people into video/photography, and it seems that video creation will be a 1st grade course sooner or later! A long time ago I taught cinema in young kids in summer school, and some of them at the age of 7-8 had the basic knowledge to create short movies on their own. I would guess, after half a decade since then, kids are more video educated. This camera, I won't buy, but it clearly shows that Canon (and there are evidence from the latest interviews) for the very first time is seeing mirrorless as it is, the future, and in the future, I would like to see what their top APS-C mirrorless could do.

I think you doth protest too much about this camera. You want one really don't you

And thats for creating content for Netflix in 4K. To aired on netflix is another deal. A great feature Ive watched more than once on netflix was shot on in good old HD with a 5Dmkii, standard video. And it looks fantastic.

Yeah, i guess he kind of equivocated there. He DID mention (and show) a BIG difference in the noise levels, but then went on to imply that noise "is not that big of a big deal. BTW: Hope you have some lenses for your a7S. Those Sony lenses ain't cheap. Heck, even the aps-c lenses for my crop-sensor a6500 are pricey Be sure to buy an extra lotto ticket for me

Netflix requirements says 4096 wide so whilst its not on their approved list of cameras, its 4096x2800 sensor is within their spec.

To be honest I did a lot of tests with a C100 using an external recorded and later compared 8-bit 420 with 8-bit 422, and yes, I did see some color differences in some areas of the sky, specially during sunset, but really nothing dramatic, and I never saw the banding which some people has showed in other topics, probably the 4K readout of the C100 is preventing this to happen....anyway I am still shooting with the external recorded....;) just to make sure!!!

it is not 8-bit the issue, you should not have banding in 8-bit 422, the issue depending light conditions is in 8-bit 420, and probably 10-bit 420.....

I just saw this video; this thing is really impressing me right now. It apparently has a telephoto lens option. This might just be worth doing something for

Nope, Portrait mode is for stills only. As is HDR. Also, the Portrait mode is far from perfect, often blurring what should not be blurred. It's far easier to just use a dedicated camera with a fast lens. Doing so will work in stills and video. Smartphones are great, and I really like the idea of integrating some of these smart features into cameras. That's what Samsung was starting to do with the NX1, and frankly that camera had one of the best UI I have ever used on a dedicated camera. All of this tech can only be better when upscaled to full sized cameras. My modern smartphones handily outperform my 11 year old Canon point and shoot. And I would imagine that in 10 years modern smartphones will outperform most of todays dedicated cameras. But think of what the dedicated cameras will be like in 10 years? Interesting times.

sorry but no, he didn't say 8-bit isn't the right tool for his intended use, he claimed "fact remains these aren’t the requirements for any serious and aspiring professional in this industry" which implies 8-bit cameras cannot be considered serious professional tools for videography. i find that statement indeed offensive/inflammatory/ignorant. as for the point about soderbergh, it was just to illustrate that "standards" don't mean much even in cinema. and btw he isn't the first to do it. george lucas shot star wars AOTC on a 8-bit Sony in 2002 as pointed out here recently. movie grossed $650 million. anyways, the fact remains if you need a 10-bit camera, it's either GH5 or 10-bit video camera. not much point debating it in any other current mirrorless/ dslr thread imo.

Awesome post bmusikaudio, thank you for sharing! Can you comment on when/how you use 16-235 vs 0-255? Great work, love all the grabs and test scenes, Please keep us informed on where we can see more!!

I think that it is very self'-deceptive and even pretentious to think that anybody can discern fundamental quality/beauty distinction between modern high quality cameras just at the base of one single, from clip extracted image that is treated even with slightest elemental channel manipulation. Matter becomes even more serious (or funnier) with 1280x720 image that survive tone of stylistic finessing and software manipulations. More over - we are constantly faced with claims that something is "cinematic" or not without explanation what exactly someone see, and what with "cinematic" is called. Just from the last years Oscar examples - Moonlight is cinematic, The Revenant is cinematic - do their global artistic directions image-character wise have anything in common? I think that we too much relay our self-esteem on subjective premise that we know/see better than someone else what mysterious "cinematic" is. I'd like more that everybody spend few minutes and indicate/explain what he/she actually like in given example - instead of repeatedly operate with one single word as argument comes from real or imagine professional heights. Lets prove our eyes, knowledge and taste indicating exactly what we see and why we think it is important. (Btw - If, in incredible case, someone is interested - above presented short called Valentine is shot completely at Voigtlander's 0.95 f value, I asked DP and he answered at his channel.)

I hear what your saying and understand taking color out of the equation. same settings for all. it's just that for example, if the the test uses a led with missing spectrum or a spike, it won't just affect color. noise and tonality in a certain color channel can be affected, which can hurt one camera and not the other. Have you seen the video from Arri where they show their skypanel vs their own tungsten lamp? another example. will a camera manufacturers idt be used inside of aces to transform to rec709, p3, rec2020, etc... or will manufacturer provided luts be used, or just by eye or? will the proper levels ie video vs data levels be properly set and maintained on both ingest and output? if luts are used, will adjustments be made before or after the lut. and then what's the method for going monotone and then who decides contrast? video i.o. card or is monitor hooked up straight to gpu? many, many other technical details if you want to truly compare.

True. I ruled them out due to no autofocus, but you're right that the image quality is better than the other options. Regardless, I think that we've gone a little off topic, and although phones are very capable devices and can be kitted out with rigs that make them almost as useful (and almost as large) as a DSLR, I don't think that anyone would make the case that a phone is a suitable alternative to a 1DC or a 1DXII.. at least not until the RED phone is released

Thank you very much, folks! Probably the M mount version of the Schneider is more precise too but those leicinas sell for a great prize. It is great to hear that the Angenieux has a good cover though. I will try to get one soon. I will try to get a new adapter as well. I am also thinking about trying some brushes between the lens and the adapter to see if I get the lens to screw less.

there are so many variables that would need to be accounted for any semblance of fairness in a blind test for the pixel peepers on a budget users here. As you alluded to above, certain variables might drastically benefit one cam or another. light source type, software, workflow, display used for grading, displays used for viewing, compression, streaming, output format, native Iso, format equivalence, lens quality, camera white balance, matching exposure, etc.. etc... if it's just so you you can decide if apple or panny takes your money, thats a little easier?.

There is a special app.... I think it's Filmic Pro. Film Riot uses it: There may be other apps??? But don't use the built in camera app... It's too basic.

I got my adapter from China, so it took a while to arrive, but seems to be out of stock now: https://www.miniinthebox.com/black-c-mount-cine-movie-lens-to-canon-eos-m-camera-lens-adapter-ring-cctv-lens_p927184.html The one they ended up sending me looks slightly different to the one in the photo. When I screw on the Schneider 6-66mm onto it, it aligns correctly - the internal horizontal plastic parts covering the top and bottom of the glass align horizontally, thus minimising the vignetting. I have another c-mount adapter where these internal plastic parts end up at an angle or near vertical when the lens is screwed in fully, causing a lot of vignetting. I'd recommend buying a couple of different adapters on ebay and hopefully one will work - all these adapters seem to vary so much! In any case I haven't been able to get completely parfocal performance on the Schneider zoom, the focus does seem to drift slightly at the wider end at open aperture as you mention - your theory about the flange distance being non-standard would definitely explain things. It would be nice to be able to do a back focus adjustment on this lens to fix that!

Haha - even the bag is £232!

I shoot in 8 bit. The 2 extra bits I don't have are talent and skill. Those are the bits I need most to be honest.

I think they're showing it at the BVE show this week. I'm in London on Thursday so might pop in to have a look. That is if all public transport hasn't been cancelled and a state of emergency declared in a pant wetting reaction to the suggestion of snow.

I don't consider myself to be a crazy pixel peeper, but the crappy gradations with 8 bit footage under certain conditions really sticks out. I consider it a lot more important than many of the other things complain about with image quality.

Practically, I don't need it. IF a shot has a gradient that creates banding I can fudge over it with some post voodoo. Or, more likely, just live with it. *gasp!* Okay, I'll pardon you to retreat to the chaise and allow recovery of your delicate constitution... Hey, I'm a low-fi filmmaker, got better stuff to worry about. Now, if I was in a more up-market situation, it matters. But I ain't, so it's doesn't. And, on a side note, the IQ tech will be so democratized in 5 years it REALLY won't matter. ---------- Funny story: running a filmfest and one filmmaker had the most engaging narrative feature length film about love/family/redemption. Beautiful characters, etc, etc. Looked like garbage though. Shot on a Sony HDR-SR1. Bad lighting, exposure, color grading, composition, cinematography, highlight roll off was disgusting! ... Still somehow an engaging film! Writing and acting were so good. However, the director came up to me an hour before screening, distraught that he didn't give us the ProRes4:4:4 file (we were going to screen the .mp4) "Oh, please fix this problem! Please!" Dude, what problem, I thought. Your film looks like shit and we still like it. 4:4:4 ain't an issue. Anyway, screened the ProRes4:4:4 and he felt better. People is crazy, y'all. On a side note, I'm watching "The Wire" for the first time. Looks like crap too. (yes, even shot on film) Sets are so poorly lit or overlit -- and there's nothing really interesting going on with the cinematography. Oh well. Still good stuff to watch.

Well I guess if you are Really good at exposure, proper lighting, not shooting into the sun, etc, 8 bit works. It has somehow worked for many years, But in a professional venue they have every base covered. Better cameras, great cameramen, great audio, great lighting, great graders, great editors, great actors, on and on. So it is hard for the average person to compete with the Pros, but now I think the gap has been closed a Lot. But you are not going to do Green Screen, VFX effects in 8 bit very well. But I think we beat ourselves up too much anymore on output quality. I am not saying to not try as hard as possible to achieve it, but at the cost of always being in debt, worrying about it all the time Bah I say. Look back how bad 8mm cameras were, super8 even. Nobody said damn that sucked. They were happy to see what had been shot, not complaining about the quality. And I would imagine most of the people that watch videos have no clue what 90% of the problems we piss and moan about even exist. I would say the most important thing that drives me crazy is poor Audio, not poor video, in a short or a long. And other than one person on here, we rarely ever even talk about that subject.

I’ve been doing tests and am shooting like 5 different reviews on this camera for Kinotika and my personal channel and to me, honestly, the GH5S is game changer. I’m noticing significant improvement in skin tones and color science here along with better autofocus with the “hack” than the GH5. I’ve been comparing the two cameras using the same settings and the GH5S does seem to be faster. Also, I love the newer sensor size. Just that little extra amount of sensor size allows for the Olympus 12-100 zoom to be the best lens of all time! Constant f4 was always a problem with this lens, but now with the low light performance it’s a non issue. That 12mm becomes a 21mm equivalent which makes it the perfect “vlog” focal length and with the ability to zoom to 100mm... you have a 21mm-175mm which is unheard of. You get fabulous IS with the lens so you’re not missing out by not having ibis and call me crazy, but I’m not a fan of ibis. It’s always ruined the shots for me. 80% of the time on the GH5 it’s great, but sometimes you just see that wobble and it ruins the shot in my opinion. Lens IS never does that for me. So: GH5S + Olympus 12-100 = best walk around kit. There’s so many things with the panny cameras that just make my life better and more pain free too. Like the hdmi implementation. Having all your settings, audio levels, etc carry over hdmi is so incredible. I even love the stills off the GH5s. Really clean and 10mp is fine for me. Less megapixels than my iPhone but the photos are fine for my use (family portraits) I’m buying the GH5S with the 12-100 with a speed booster for my contax Zeiss glass and actually going to sell my 1DC for this. I’m so happy with the 10bit files and vlog. This camera makes me happy. The GH5 never did.

We don't have a multi screen setup, it's just for recording with OBS. The screens came from nowhere with the update. But yes I would try uninstalling driver and reinstall, remember to unplug network just in case Windows Update wanna install drivers for it while you do it. There is an option to disable windows update from doing drivers with gpo if you have Win10 Pro, if you can, do that, since Microsoft have no idea what they are doing at times.

Only that the film was shot on iPhone. Get it? iPhone, not a Meizu, not an Oppo, not a Xiaomi Redmi 5, not even a Motorola. Where is the "democratisation" when the phone you use costs more than a 4K APS-C camera with a couple of lenses? and how cheaper you want a dedicated camera that can have new from 350$ anyway? I have a brand new and quite capable camera phone, and the images I get VS the ones of my APS-C cameras are just laughable. Cough cough .. "publicity stunt" cough cough..

Maybe not my best and certainly not the video in which I was paid more or had the most production values and toys to play with. Still I'm really happy about the reception it got from a lot of people in this small country I-m currently living in (Dominican Republic, Caribbean). This music video was shot during a couple of afternoons with some friends with a lended camera.. For those who don-t speak Spanish the song is about a survivour of domestic abuse.

lol... Because of those stints with Kimmel... I can't take Matt Damon seriously. Me and my wife were the only ones laughing at this guy when he woke up and he started crying in Interstellar (and that was supposed to be a serious scene too).

their marketing is working!!!!!

You don't understand how marketing works. All exposure is "good" exposure. In fact, in somekind of odd brainiac way, bad publicity often has the affect of making something even more popular. Take Trump if you need an example. What I see is a signal that there's a movement to bring filmmaking to the masses. We could definitely question the merits and quality of this movement, but the fact that two Hollywood actors would attach their careers to something like this is a bit of foreshadowing in my opinion.