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This doesn't answer your questions but it is a good breakdown of the positives and negatives of Braw.

I'm not posting this bc I'm proud of it, but this is something I shot last night with 1x3 1504x1920... I got the viltrox focal reducer and the Tamron 45mm VC 1.8, in hopes of lessening the rolling shutter... Don't think it helped, maybe a little less of the vibrations, RS is definitely still there; yes, I know the walking shots were doomed from the get-go, I won't blame that on the camera. (Sometimes there are also still micro vibrations- I assume the VC is working bc it has a switch on the lens, can't image the adaptor somehow is disabling it?) This whole thing has been pretty incredible to play with, and what Magic Lantern has been able to do is pretty incredible as well, but I think I may let go of this... aside from the RS, I just can't get past the live view... So many of these shots are out of focus because you can't really see much with live view... If you set to Framing as I do, the fps in the view gets really slow when recording and it's really really hard to follow the focus that way. If you set to real-time, the stretched image you see isn't even the center of the image so it's really kind of useless. I guess I might be ok with the 1080 settings (RS is a lot more manageable) but hate that its just short of HD, don't like having to scale up... if HD is all I'm after, I'm almost tempted to go and buy a used BM Pocket for $400, had that camera for years and loved it. This is the second time I've gone out and bought an EOS-M bc of ML (last time was last Aug, back when 1080mv was the latest development)... Maybe I'm too impatient but I doubt the liveview will ever get better. If it does, maybe I'll buy the camera a third time and come back to it. BTW, no pink frames for me at all with this shoot, and sd_overclock was on.

I agree! that is the point. Depending the set, and the budget of the project. Sound equipmemt for a feature film can be a lot of dozens of thousands. Even my equipment worths more than 10.000€, easily. One needs also a lot of specialized accessories and the such which add up considerably. 416 is not even near the top of mics anymore. It is a good staple, I love mine, but there are a lot of better mics out there, and different ones, depending the job. It is my #1 choice for harsh weather documentaries though. I bet all have similar quality, more important is placememt and what mic capsules one uses. DPA and Sanken are some of the best in business, which one capsule costs almost twice than this system!

That jello is absolutely disgusting

Used a GX85 with my G85 on Saturday while helping a friend on a project. Will ask him to share some of the footage with me to share on here, but with this thread in mind I did a bit of testing and yeah, the G85 has superior IBIS imo and given the GX85 was rigged up and might've even weighed more than the G85, I don't think the difference was in the body. I used the 12-35 on both cameras. GX85 footage was fine, but had more micro jitters I felt. It's a nice little camera though; I kinda want to get one because i appreciate the form factor but I don't really need it, I've got enough cameras ?

Cool topic and interesting predictions. Innovation tends to come from the intersection of technologies, less from a single technology reaching a threshold. Here's a few combinations that might be interesting: 360 cameras + AI with face-tracking + AI video editing This could create a camera that consumers just take with them to events and it automatically records video, frames shots in post, and edits them together to deliver a finished product or products (photos and video). This might even be free if FB / Amazon / Instagram think the data gained by spying on you is worth the hardware costs, but if you willing to pay for it then they'll happily take the data and your money. Electronic variable ND + better ISO performance (or dual ISO, or Triple ISO?) This combination could create a camera where we control the creative parameters (SS, F-stop) and the camera manually exposes using only non-creative controls (ND, ISO). This means you can set whatever aperture you want, 180 degree shutter, and then take exposure off your plate and think about more creative aspects of shooting. The "cinematic vlog" crowd might help with this as there's a ton of them and they care about SS and F-stop but want fast-paced shooting, and will be adding their voice to the pros who also want built-in NDs. NLE + AI face-tracking and shot analysis Not something people talk about, but there might be benefits to NLEs being able to analyse your footage. Immediate benefits would be logging footage by reading slates (if you have them), detecting takes (visually similar shots repeated over and over), tagging of shots with which faces appear in them, etc. Combined with smart bins this would save a lot of leg-work, especially in doc work where you have huge amounts of footage. For the less serious users (some people felt that FCPX was really iMovie, so Apple are trying to reach these people) you could also have expression detection, framing detection, and other ways to rate clips. The existing 'choose the best shots and make a sequence' technology could be incorporated, creating a rough-cut with a single button. More advanced features would be to watch you through the webcam as you view shots and further refine based upon your reactions. This could be huge as people are recording video and photos all the time, and editing your photos and choosing the best ones has been made easy but video editing is still something the average person doesn't even attempt.

The Zhiyun-Tech Crane-2 also works very well with the GH5 & GH5s and is inexpensive (*not* the Crane v2). We have used one for hundreds of hours. With the recent firmware updates, it also interfaces with the camera well. Although, I will say that I prefer the angled back of the Ronin-S and the Moza Air 2, if I were buying new ones. The angled back makes it easier to see the screen on a hybrid. Also, think carefully about your gimbal selection if you eventually plan to purchase a BMPCC4K.

Let's hear your ideas, people! Some of these might be things you expect to happen in the next few years, or maybe as far out as the next 10 years. Personally I am super stoked for the next 5-10 years in camera video tech. We're all used to improvements on the hardware side and that will continue of course, but with more and more image processing advancements happening in software I predict we'll start seeing a lot more features coming from advanced processing techniques combined with new hardware, like the GoPro 7 hypersmooth. Ok let's get started. I've chunked up my predictions into some major categories but feel free to add your own if they don't fit into these: AutoFocus: There's been a ton of innovation in AutoFocus over the last 5 years and I think we'll continue to see more, including more stills AF features making it to video, like runtime eye-AF which is now shipping on the Sony A6400 and upcoming A9 firmware update. Face registration with priority This is another existing stills feature that we don't have in video yet (to my knowledge) 3D Focus tracking? Generating 3D models from multiple high resolution stills (photogrammetry) is tech that's in common use right now in a variety of fields (e.g. Google Earth) It's reasonable to imagine that with enough processing horsepower and good software a camera could build a 3D AutoFocus model of a subject (rotate around subject to get data) With a 3D AutoFocus model it's possible we could have highly accurate tracking even as a subject moves / rotates in space Sensor / Resolution I'm not super well versed in sensor tech so below are some of my layman's predictions. @androidlad, wanna chime in here? Realtime HDR? High-res quad bayer sensor which combines short and long-exposure pixels into an HDR frame. This is a feature on recent smartphones (see EOSHD thread) Sony's STARVIS Micro-4/3rds sensor does quad bayer HDR already for video Full-readout 8K with 4x Clear Image zoom? The Sony A9 can already do 2x Clear Image Zoom without any noticeable loss in quality (example) With a full readout of an 8K sensor (33.2MP) downscaled to 4K, we could get 4x Clear Image zoom while still outputting a full-res 4K signal Imagine being able to use, say, the 24mm 1.4 GM as a 24-96mm 1.4 zoom lens. Sounds pretty sweet to me Stabilization In-camera image-processed stabilization (a la GoPro 7 hypersmooth) I've got a GoPro 7 and this stabilization tech truly lives up to its name. All done in-processor in realtime in 4K right now (albeit with a much smaller sensor readout). Bringing this tech to larger-sensor cams seems like a big win Codecs / Compression 10bit 4:2:2 / higher bitrates / blah blah Already here in the GH5, only a matter of time before it trickles down to more cams Lossless compressed RAW (a la BlackMagic RAW) I could see some other manufacturers making their own version of this type of codec, and maybe selling it as a paid firmware update on prosumer cams for those users that want RAW 120p 4K 4K 60p is already here on APS-C, 120p seems reasonable in 5+ year's time with enough processing power / heat management Realtime encoding features Realtime hyperlapse Already on smartphones and the GoPro (which works great - example) Simulated Depth of Field This is already a stills feature on modern smartphones and it works pretty well (Google's Pixel portrait mode explained). Not super exciting for those of us that like real bokeh from fast lenses on large sensors but I could see some smaller action cams / vlogger cams making good use of this. Ergonomics / Body / Usability Smartphone touchscreen performance It's a travesty that we still don't have this level of performance in our camera touchscreens given how long smartphones have been doing this well Smartphone-style touchscreen interface / usability Again a travesty that $3500 cameras are light years behind a $200 smartphone UI. Leave the legacy UI mode for people who want familiarity but give us a proper 21st century UI. In-camera ND This already exists on higher end models like the Sony FS5. Obviously this is a much larger body with an APS-C sensor and I'm sure the current system wouldn't fit into an A7/A9 body, but maybe we'll see some miniaturization of this or some kind of on-sensor ND tech. Clear Image Zoom on focus ring Ok this is a small idea but imagine being able to swap the functionality of your focus ring (since many of us are using AutoFocus) into a Clear Image Zoom ring, so you can zoom smoothly while recording. Could even give it a power-zoom mode where you twist to zoom in/out at various speeds. Connectivity / Net features Realtime bluetooth video feed and camera control over for all settings over Smartphone This already exists to a large degree on the GoPro. The live video feed and changing of camera settings works well although they can't output the video feed while recording. What are your predictions?

Panasonic needs to hire you.

Nice looking shots! Makes me reconsider my GH5.

I guess it depends on what crop mode you are using... I've been using the (1504x1920) 1x3 binning mode pretty exclusively the past few weeks and the "realtime" preview (not "framing preview") is streched vertically in a big way. Pretty sure that is a just how it is with 1x3, restarting the camera doesn't change that.

hey yeah! Still waiting for some gear and the project I am working on with this setup doesn't start production till late March or so. But here's some stills from test footage in the meantime. I am going to be using the Nikkor 50 1.8 and the 85 f2 as taking lenses together with an XL .64 Metabones...also waiting to receive a V1 Aivascope which I will use in some shots for flaring. The V2 does not flare unless you really blast it with something. I ended up with a ProtoDNA thanks to the wonderful advice from JSD and it's awesome. I am just now opening a box with the Titla G2X and Nucleus Nano. Will get her all balanced up and report back with some pics! Planning on mostly using one Pocket4K on sticks, another dedicated to the gimbal for tracking shots.

Just got a GH5 to go with my Alexa and purchased the LUTS. Pretty impressed so far. With some tweaks, they work very well. VLOG GHa Final Look:

I just bought a few old Carl Zeiss lenses for Rollei QBM mount that I am obsessed with on my 5D3. Even the f/2.8 lenses have that creamy Zeiss bokeh. I didn’t realize the 6D ML was that good... do you think it would be a good B-Cam for a 5D3?

I think you're just taking something said in jest too seriously! It happens!

@Emanuel My experience coincide with what @Alpicat has mentioned above, with an addition to me having had similar problems with the crop mode as well, albeit perhaps in an older version of ML. The problem of a stretched preview is easy to notice and all you have to do at that point is to reboot the camera and hope for it to be properly initialized. The crop and decentering can be harder to notice, but what you can do is to frame up your shots in regular video mode, before enabling ML - a method that works to combat decentering, but is a lot trickier regarding crop.

Agree. My favourite ML Fullframe camera is definitely the Canon 6D. The footage it produced was un-earthly, especially when paired with Zeiss lens.

https://www.panoramaplanet.de/comp/

Yeah, I am pretty sure it is the only hybrid that does 14bit. But to be fair, ML is the only option for any hybrid photo/video Raw... especially internal. Otherwise, you’re looking at the Alexa for 14bit. And I think ProRes Raw from Zenmuse X7 may be 14bit but not lossless.

A year ago, I did a small comparison between 4k and 6k, see here:

That's true and is a big consideration if you're thinking about getting this camera. In general the eos m has never been very usable for video and things haven't really changed that much. If you want a camera that's easy to use - i.e. with proper framing - you'd be better off with a bmpcc or something else. With the eos m you're basically shooting partially blind in some of the modes. I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but in all the raw modes on the eos m you have a choice between shooting with a real time preview that is cropped, sometimes not correctly centred and in some cases stretched vertically by ~ 2x or more extreme in the case of 1x3 mode (the preview looks like uncorrected anamorphic with the bottom half of the frame not displayed)... or you can shoot with correct framing preview but then the display is very pixelated and plays at slow frame rate. It's hard to shoot anything in this mode, unless it's a static shot. I only ever use this mode briefly to check framing before I start shooting. The exception to all the above is movie crop mode which we'd spoken about in the previous eosm thread - that mode provides a fully correct preview, but the crop is 4.66x (approx 1/2 inch sensor size) and max res is 1800x1024. Here's an example video using that mode: https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/26577-is-the-eos-m-the-digital-super-8-camera/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-227334

As much as I love the IBIS on my GH5, I will say that recording prores internally would be lovely. I'm rendering proxies for a three week trip and 350Gb of footage, it's done about a quarter and has been going for a couple of hours now and it says it has about 7 hours left.. that's an hour more than when I started!! 4K Prores Proxy has broadly similar bitrate to 4K 150Mbps or 5K 200Mbps footage and both are 10-bit! That person who shot that video in Prores Proxy (or was it LT?) had the right idea

You're welcome!! ??? I figured there might be some extra love in there for Canon. Is Canon + ML the only hybrid setup that does 14-bit? I never focused on what bit-depth the BM cameras operated on, or what external setups could offer. I remember those 10-bit vs 12-bit vs 14-bit conversations we had where most liked 12-bit over 10, and some even preferred 14 over 12.

Damn you, guys.. I just bought an used 5D Mk II because of you..

All Raw looks pretty good to me but there is just something special about 14bit FF Raw with that little punch from Canon’s color filter array.

I completely agree that ML footage looks wonderful, but for me so does all RAW footage. Do you notice a big difference between your 5D ML footage and other RAW cameras? or is it just that RAW loveliness?

I'm a business consultant, so spend my working days in head offices dealing with management types and office politics. I once spoke to a coworker with a HR background after we ejected someone from the building who was beyond useless, and I suggested that we make a note never to hire that person again and they said that there was some kind of HR rule and we couldn't make any kind of list like that. I don't know if that was just for that company, or a wider regulation, but that company wasn't anything special, so similar limitations are likely in other organisations. The company was around 5000 employees, so the chance that someone else in management somewhere sees that person has experience within the org and re-hires them is considerable. But it has its upsides too - if someone only wants to work with people who agree with them then good riddance, I'll go somewhere else and actually be productive.

Yup, on occasion I think about buying another camera until I look at my footage. As far as the eos-m and @Brian Williams video... I totally agree. It looks great. In some ways, the camera seems like a fun experiment in impromptu filmmaking.

That image is f#cking lovely! Man every time I see MLRaw I'm impressed, I need to shoot more with it again.

Oh no, that is all part of the "Team Aspect". You can't throw your team under the bus. How barbarian. It is for the greater good you keep your pie hole shut. Pretty much a big reason the world is so F ed up now LoL. Must not be insensitive can we. Everyone gets a Participation Trophy now. How cute. Angelic music keyed up softly from above. Someone please engage 'goat-mode'. ?

Yeah, it's the same with most industries, maybe all of them. It's who you know not what you know. I don't know about the film industry, but in my industry you can do very well by just being very social and talking a big game. It also helps if you don't know anything, people who are clueless tend to respond positively when clients make non-sensical requests and that makes them 'team players' but the people who actually know why those ideas are ridiculous (and are willing to admit it) are negative influences and are to be eliminated at all costs. Fun fun fun...

More importantly, you’re completely screwed on location if you don’t charge the only battery available. Do they have an auto shutoff like the updated rode vmp did? 5 hours is also super limiting if you have a full day of shooting...

Yeah but if you Have to lock off every shot you do that is pretty damn limiting. You might as well use it as a Photo camera, which by the way it sort of is. I was thinking of buying one, but with all the latest evidence this thing seems to have a damn under powered processor in it, no surprise. So that means to me it is Never going to be so hot when it is limping along even in a format lesser than1080p.

On a full switch off, I'd probably be inclined to agree but not on a power saving suspension. Ditto if wasn't an internal zoom design lens so there was a chance of obstruction when it was resuming position. With a fully fly by wire power zoom lens like this, I just don't get why it has to do it. I'd increase the timeout setting if the camera wasn't such a battery drain/potential fire hazard Anyway, its annoying and non-cinematic so I'm going off to write a stern email to my MP about it.

Yeah does look like oil spots. I had the same crap on my A7s. I Had to send it in to get cleaned. I could Never get the sensor cleaned after god knows how many tries with different reasonably expensive products. I just about wore the coatings off my lenses before I figured it was the sensor.

I agree. Its interesting because when all these YouTubers use the term cinematic + shallow DOF together, yet the last couple of times I went to the movies its always been a deep Dof.

To answer the question... there is one thing that almost always makes a video seem cinematic... and that is slow motion. Even smartphone video seems cinematic in slow-mo. That's one of the reasons I detest when people post footage from new cameras but only use slow-mo. It's a cheat, because you can't film usable dialog in slow-mo. If slow-mo can make a smartphone seem cinematic, then we can conclude it's an important part of the cinematic recipe. This can be further evidenced by looking at the other extreme; record in 30p or 60p and you have instant "video" look. So the key would seem to be tied to motion. Sure lights and framing play a part, but I honestly feel the major component is motion. And that motion can also be helped or harmed by how the camera is moved. Speed of camera movement is important. Panning too fast produces a visible judder. Though I'm not certain this is an issue with GS cameras? Direction that the subject moves is also critical. One should try to avoid having subjects move parallel to the lens from one side of the frame to the other; favoring instead movements toward or away from the camera at an angle to enter or exit the frame.

You're probably right in terms of marketing a better IBIS because that would be something that people care about and would help to sell cameras. More generally, I still don't think you can rely on marketing. Firstly, there are potentially large numbers of individual changes from model to model of a camera line, not all of which will get attention. Marketing treads a delicate balance between saying the new camera is awesome because it is so much better than the other ones on offer, and implying that the other ones are so much worse than the new one, especially when an improvement can be seen as fixing some kind of deficiency instead of just adding on awesomeness. Someone recently started a thread about the IBIS noise being picked up by the internal microphones in the G/GX ranges (IIRC) and someone else pointed out that the GH5 has added internal microphones to cancel out that noise from the internal mics, which was a feature that some people hadn't heard about. My guess was that this kind of thing probably wouldn't be marketed because it's fixing a flaw in other models that they really don't want to highlight, despite the fix costing money and being of some benefit to customers. In terms of why they might innovate without a need, it could be that they buy parts in huge volumes to get sustainable prices and after running out of the IBIS motors or controllers or whatever and when they did the next bulk purchase they could only buy the next model up because the old one was discontinued, so the decision to upgrade was made for them. Or the new features were available in a newer firmware in that chipset (and they hadn't allowed updating of that chipset in the previous models). Or they had to upgrade a part due to physical size, power consumption, pin layout (to enable different circuitboard layouts) or any number of other reasons. People tend to underestimate how complicated technology actually is. If we were to take the drive-train of a car (without the computer chips) and draw it out in a kind of functional diagram, you could fit it on a large sheet of paper, if we included all the switches and controls for indicators and heated seats and power windows in a luxury car then it might be the size of a small wall in your house. If we did the same for something like a laptop computer or digital camera (they're going to look roughly the same) the writing would be so small that it probably wouldn't be readable even if you made the diagram the size of the field in a sports stadium. How they build electronic devices is also a strange process. People think of it like they start designing a product, then they work out all the features, then they buy the bits and put them al together to do that. It's not like that. It's a massive shit fight between the marketing and design departments who want to offer every new feature imaginable requiring new parts and redesigns, the engineering department who want to add no new features but make it robust and reliable requiring better parts without a redesign, the accounting department who wants to make it the cheapest possible by buying older cheaper parts in bulk, senior management who are concerned with how their product is or isn't compatible with competitors products, all in an environment where the companies who make products are trying to do secret deals with the parts manufacturers to give them great deals on new parts but block the other companies from buying the best and latest chips. Add onto that the football-pitch sized complexity of what they're building and the ripple-effect of how changing one part can mean that other parts also need to be changed, potentially then needing further changes in other parts. This includes interconnectedness of other products which might already be on sale like lenses and memory cards and flashes etc. And after all that, companies like Nikon are known for implementing support for features well ahead of the time of launch. IIRC they released some kind of lens functionality which was previously unavailable but it was supported on camera bodies that had been selling for years - so those camera bodies had features that were sitting there waiting for the lenses to be released, so you not only have to ensure compatibility with current features but perhaps future features as well. It's a huge mess basically, so marketing isn't really a reliable source for all that stuff.

LMAO.

Yeah, fair enough. The difference between 444 and 422 is real but small, especially since our vision does edge detection based on luminance not hue, so having less resolution for colour information isn't as noticed as luma resolution. Ultimately the best setup would be a setup that took the full sensor readout, debayered it, downscaled it to 1080, then saved it in a HQ or uncompressed codec. That would give the best image possible with the benefits of the smaller file sizes. Imagine if the next models of hybrids plus external recorders could read 8K resolution and save it to Prores 4444 12-bit. 4444 UHD has the same bitrate as RAW 1080, and 4444 HD has slightly less bitrate than RAW 720. That would mean that for the same file sizes you'd get basically the cleanest and highest resolution possible, smooth-like-butter editing, affordable media, and have a rig that was still quite portable - especially if they made the external recorder available in the Atomos Ninja Star form-factor! Ah, dreaming

So basically nothing since the initial firmware (I've tried on Photokina last year) and an external recorder doesn't help either and H265 doesn't cause waxy skin with little to no definition and temporal noise reduction fighting against any signs of texture. Well - if you like it, it's all yours... So disappointing.