Leaderboard

I do not want to participate but a specific someone is playing us like a fiddle for 15 pages now. Drags people into the nonsense abyss and single handedly destroyed the P6K thread for everyone that is trying to learn anything at all about this camera. Also, is the individual attacking most people on the smaller amount of time I have ever seen here. Stop feeding him and please try to not completely loose control of the thread, any thread.

BREAKING: Apple has sued Red over their patents on red code and their 4k raw camera Here's info I have learned so far via anonymous source via personal view: http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/22255/red-surpassed-beats-by-dr-dre-margins-record-selling-you-just-consumer-ssd-/p2?post#Form_Body From apple vs red lawsuit https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/PTAB/IPR2019-01065/Inter_Partes_Review_of_U.S._Pat._9245314/docs/05-06-2019-Petitioner/Exhibit-1003-3-Ex1003___Expert_Declaration_Redcom_314.pdf https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/PTAB/IPR2019-01065/Inter_Partes_Review_of_U.S._Pat._9245314/05-06-2019-Petitioner/Petition-2-Petition_for_IPR_of_US_Patent_No_9245314/ https://www.dropbox.com/sh/52mk7rbgykdyk8v/AAB096zoYR9MoGSxVnUT4HgDa?dl=0 LEGAL DISCLAIMER: THIS IS JUST MY OPINION FROM WHAT MY RESEARCH IS - THESE are just my opinions and my research into the legal documents I have read above. Apple’s claim: Patents invalid because tech came from Mølgaard and Presler- video image processing can be applied to Presler’s video camera Presler from Silicon Imaging cmos camera and redcode seems to possibly be modified from some existing tech already by Molgaard Key figures in Apple vs Red lawsuit: Ari Presler - Chief Tech Officer at Silicon Imaging Claus Mølgaard, Vice President of Research and Development - Phase One now at Apple https://www.linkedin.com/in/ari-presler-a250ba4/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/molgaardclaus/ Seems red buys tech, patents as their own, then sues people for using it.

Backstory is becoming very wide knowledge. 1.6m views

It is widely known in the camera industry that RED owns a key patent for a cinema cameras featuring compressed RAW. It is also alleged the technology has featured in a number of past legal claims RED have had over rival camera companies. Now third party accessory manufacturer Jinni Tech alleges RED "deceived the US patent office" and filed the critical patent late. Read the full article

Its certainly got the makings of a great investigative documentary. I like a great investigative documentary. Like this one called "Stop At Nothing" about the con trick that Lance Armstrong pulled on the whole world and which he sustained by the bullying tactic of suing everyone that he knew was too weak financially to stand up to him with what they knew. They were all written off and derided publicly by Armstrong and his acolytes as jealous or bitter or conspiracy theorists or even all three. The biggest scorn was reserved for those who had been privy to the biggest secret which was when he admitted to his doctor just after brain surgery in 1996 that he had taken performance enhancing drugs. People like Stephanie Mcilvain. I've cued it up to the part where the allegations are discussed about the pressure she came under from both Armstrong himself but also her employer at the time. And in particular, her ultimate boss at that employer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpb-VBNoEC0&t=3958

@andrewreid you got all my support. Continue to be free to speak and express your opinions. As you said, you leave in a free country. I'll support you if RED try again to sue you please share to us and start a kickstarter to pay for lawyer. Life doen't have to be managed by lawsuit or patent. Sharing knowledge is the only way to respectable world. Thanks again for your work.

I agree and will not post anymore on this derail. I'll be in the "stutter vs judder thread". (Sorry, I fought the urge )

*CUE INSPIRATIONAL MUSIC* We live in an imperfect world. We're all humans. Mistakes happen. Maybe Patent office was starstruck like Andrew said. It's PETER FRIGGIN JACKSON! THE LORD OF THE RINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE HOBBIT!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOO! That's why, in my opinion, we have the law to try to fix things up. And always, always, change comes from the bottom up. It's every day people like Bruce from Jinnimag who change the world. Not politicians. Not billionares. Whistleblowers, and people who stick their necks out. The little guys. And they do this maybe out of pride, or revenge, or god knows what, but they do it. And with a silly video series on youtube with mario coin sound FX.

Ed you are a hero with this research. I will have to spend tomorrow going through it properly and try to understand all the facts. There's a lot to get one's head around that's for sure.

From my anonymous tipster: "The date is interesting. It seems this was lodged as a testimony because the original patent wasn’t accepted." Using Peter Jackson and Steven Soderbergh to testify for the patent amendment. WHAT IS THE HOOEY IS GOING ON?

Ignore the date of December on the video, as this was shot at NAB 2006, and purports to be the earliest video of a public interview with RED about the camera. Fast forward to IBC in September 2006 and I've found this video of the Q&A with the, erm, "Leader Of The Rebellion" and I've cued this up right when someone asks the question about the compression.... Prior to this section, where REDCODE definitely is described, he was actually inviting people to get in line the next day at their booth to pre-order the camera and saying how they had to that point had 400+ orders for it already. I placed my order based on the NAB reveal where the info was slightly more nebulous but RED always used the caveat that everything was subject to change which undoubtedly covers them in terms of what we ordered but less so I would believe in terms of the patent aspect?

Don't want to jump the gun, the dude is just still sleeping for now! LOL : -)

..and suddenly the P6K thread is dead silent! Do you remember what was going on when the P4K was announced? The P6K is an excellent and very reasonably priced option for 6K and EF aficionados, but the price and features of P4K spoiled us all for ever!

Thanks for doing this Andrew. I'm trying to get an interview with Bruce from Jinnimag and try to get up enough evidence to show Wired and the NYTimes, New Yorker, and Engadget and Variety and Hollywood reporter to cover this story. Also maybe sharing this news with Sony and Canon, maybe they have industry connections they can use. I spoke to a journalist at Ars Technica, and he said they don't have the resources to verify the claims in the Jinnimag video - they need a red minimag and a red touch lcd, but maybe they have legal experts they can talk to - or if someone has a patent lawyer we can consult with. Let me know who wants to help start getting this going. Andrew, also you should consult with a lawyer about their NDA against you. I'm sure someone can offer you pro-bono legal advice. It seems a little fishy.

I think the appearance of the Pocket 6K has probably forced their hand to get images out of it being used for shooting a bit quicker than they wanted (the pic is from Steven Soderbergh) hence them having to use the Atomos. The kudos of getting Soderbergh to tweet it was slightly undermined by him getting the name wrong and calling it the Kimono. Could be worse, he could have called it the Komode. The last thing they need at the moment is the connotation of it being something they've been sat on for ages that turns out to have a load of shit inside.

This is huge news! RED can bully little guys but now one of the five largest companies in the world has their thumbs on little Red. Getcha popcorn ready

Opinion, without prejudice: It is a shame. RED had and still has great technology, all they had to do was sell and generate goodwill with creatives. All this going mental with lawyers and dodgy patent licensing fees, if that is indeed the case, puts all that good stuff in danger but after what they did to me and so many others, people like Jannard get what they deserve at the end. According to our favourite Russian friend Vitaliy Kiselev:

The rebuttal to the legitimacy of RED's patents from Apple's imaging scientist might as well have said "In summary...This is like Vanilla Ice claiming he owns the rights to Under Pressure"

Fascinating Ed. My opinion: Loos like Jim Jannard went after Apple over RAW and this then landed on his door step. Apple has a lawyer British imaging scientist on $600 per hour Hunter just became the hunted.

Exactly. Say what you will about the company and their pricing or whatever, but the sensors they use with their workflow and, most importantly, REDCODE, makes their image really, really shine. The Komodo is very exciting especially because of the battery and CFast choices and potential Atomos partnership. Automatically makes getting the whole system up and running a much more affordable endeavor. If the Komodo can deliver in sensor size, frame rates, and ISO like Gemini, Red is going to have a pretty big hit on their hands.

On the media and monitors, certainly

Soon I'll put the link to the vote on the front page of the blog to drum up some more people to take part and vote. Then let's close the poll around Saturday-ish and do the big reveal of gear. Get some photos of the gear and post it. I'll do the same and reveal what I shot. I made two videos with two different cameras. Then the winner of the public vote gets the last place person's camera If he wants to give it him. We're not going to force it out of his hands This is supposed to be a bit of fun really. Then I'll choose a winner of the judge's prize, who will get one of my cameras.

GREAT question~! but: hmmm... im sorry . may i...digress for ~one~ hot second...? i wanna just make this clear one time, and my pals who read my posts will get it ok? i feel... weird abt this. i hate it. let me tell you: U CANT SEE MY FACE BC I USED TO MODEL, OK? i was in a short or two. I POSTED ONE PIC WHICH I REGRET. ITS **NOT PERSONAL GUIZEEE*** I LOVE UUUuuu ::WHEW::! dam, i legit feel sm better now. UGHH!!! THAnkk YOUuu for letting me say that~! jeez! i feel like a great weight has been lifted ok /SO: back to phone wallpapers @heart0less -- i sometimes go MONTHS, up to, say, 3+ months WITHOUT CHANGING MY PHONE WALLPAPER. SAME W MY DESKTOP WALLPAPER. OMG, RITE?!??? BUT, this thread has totally inspired me to get SUPER gay on my new NOTE 10 ? P.S. @Zach Goodwin2 -- do u like this?

One can't delete their own posts here. Only way to do it, is edit it and delete the content.

The advantage of the Magicboosrer is that it has no electronic contact. is a group of glasses that is mounted inside the body without modifying the original mount of the camera.

DELETED. Sorry, this is not how I want to spend my three days off.

I feel the patent issue is probably dead in the water based on how the patent office works. The “Made in USA” claims however...that’s looking like deception and possible fraud, at least for that LCD screen. What is their possible justification for being “made in the usa” or even “assembled in the USA”. If they did this with the LCD screen what other components did they do it with, if any? And why would they sue Andrew for talking smack about their product instead of rising to the occasion? Kinda shows a company culture of “bully litigation”. i suspect a lot of this is driven by the personality of REDs CEO.

Eat the rich ?

In the cine world, people will tend to use the 180º shutter angle, 24fps -> 1/48th (DSLRs usually offer approximately 1/50th to begin with), 60fps -> 1/120th, etc. Hence the motion cadence. The different terminology won't change the fact there's no difference between shutter speed and shutter angle. Just two distinct ways to say the same as happens along the Blackmagic cameras, on P4K at least. It is nothing about motion blur rather than motion cadence on his post. The other user didn't hint that at all WTH *phew* He didn't suggest you could vary the angle to some slow shutter speed / 360º shutter angle to get that, more prone to pop up in the realm of still photography but possible to reach on video as well, obviously.

Disruptive technology indeed..

Reality will never overcome some representation of it. That's why it is called art. 24fps posed a standard, dictated as its intrinsic motion cadence. Other than that is not adding anything but just diminishing all that. Who doesn't understand this has no clue what's going on. E : -)

The sunglasses that Lance used to wear you mean? https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-02/sponsor-turned-blind-eye-to-lance-armstrongs-doping/5564074

I still don't understand what you are trying to convey here. The industry accepts that images shot at 24p have 'stutter' for lack of a better word. There are ways to minimise it in the way you shoot, but 24fps can only provide smooth motion up to a certain point. https://cinematography.com/index.php?/topic/65391-a-question-about-motion-cadence/&do=findComment&comment=418530 Maybe read that thread and argue your case there. I don't know but I think this conversation is probably boring the hell out of people wanting to know about the P6K.

I haven't paid super close attention to this yet, but I would imagine that the P4K and the P6K would have very similar or identical "motion cadence" as they are using the same image pipeline (other than the sensor). Perhaps the slightly larger sensor will have a small impact. I am setting up a time now with a couple of my guys to go play with the P4K vs. P6K. I will ask their thoughts on the matter. Here is something on motion blur for Skip77 start at 3:23 if it doesn't start on its own

Sony https://doddlenews.com/reds-jannard-speaks-out-on-sony-lawsuit/ Updated 2012 RED camera system / raw codec patent document https://www.scribd.com/doc/125170172/Video-camera-US-patent-8174560 Wooden Camera cages and V-mount http://cinescopophilia.com/red-sues-wooden-camera/ "Sunglasses are mentioned quite a few times throughout the claim"

"Failure to file a patent application within the one-year period will result in the invention being passed onto public domain, where it will no longer be eligible for a patent." https://definitions.uslegal.com/o/one-year-rule/ https://www.studiodaily.com/2019/01/red-atomos-settle-patent-dispute-promise-integrated-recording-products-come/ http://www.studiodaily.com/2018/12/atomos-goes-public-australian-securities-exchange/ So if the patent is invalidated, will RED refund Atomos backdated licensing fees?

Which RAW codecs did these use?

OK Skip. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2018/12/5/18127329/how-to-turn-off-motion-smoothing-tv-lg-samsung-vizio-sony-roku

I would love to see RED taken to the cleaners. They're Patent bullies and need to be cut to size. So much for R&D, and Made in the US, and unique design and all that BS. I hope someone does a sting with them and the US Patent office. Giving them a patent in video camera was beyond ludicrous. The patent office also needs a series of sting operation. I hope RED gets sued across all continents and all countries where it sells. I am suddenly wondering whether Oakleys were ever completely made in the US or partially in China, and only later represented to Luxottica to be partially made in China, when it was bought.

UPDATE: 2 provisional patents, one was filed April 11th 2007 and other in December 2007. Tick the clock backwards 12 months from December 2007 and RED camera was publicly discussed and on sale according to JT's video. This doesn't seem to be his conjecture, rather historical, factual information from the internet, forums and Jannard interviews, where RED publicly display and demonstrate the technology later patented. Be it NAB 2006 (sales) or IBC 2006 (exhibit) or initial tests and the stuff from 2005... It's all out there. In JT's video he points to RED putting up "sold out" signs at NAB 2006 for instance which is more than 1 year before one of the provisional patents the final one relied upon, and 2 years before the final patent was granted. Of course I'm not a lawyer and would encourage anyone to look only at the facts before jumping to opinions, myself included, which is what I am doing! When it comes to the fine details of the law, I am making no claims until I know the facts. Yes JT could be wrong and RED could have a perfectly legal and valid patent, and that would be the end of the discussion. It's for the FTC to decide... Also over the Made in USA claims. I won't be taking a firm opinion either way yet. But I do want people to keep on examining the facts and understanding the info, and we have free speech so are able to do that. RED should apologise for me for the forced settlement agreement terms and the impact this had on my blog and free speech. I want internal compressed RAW in many more of our cameras. It's important RED's patents are checked and their behaviour held to account. If they are invalid, it has huge consequences. RED should be allowed to put their side of the story in response to this video and I invite them to do that here, not just play the distraction game with Komodo.

Film motion is not like 'silk' at all. There IS a stutter to it. Most modern TV's have features now that attempt to smooth the motion out and the results are a little like watching 1080i or 50p at realtime speed, it looks 'videoish' I have a little mission in life whereby whenever I visit someones house, I try to secretly turn off image smoothing when they are up making me a coffee as most TV's seem to have it on by default. They don't notice anything and it is back to how the film maker intended ?

Let's give credit where credit is due. Had it not been for Red, we would be probably still shooting HD. Well, maybe exaggerated, but it would have taken a few more years, that's for sure. Their Red One was definitely disruptive. And gave start to many businesses, mine included. Have to admit it. Eventually I started a rental company thanks to being in the first thousand of adopters... Later it all went to Arri. Many wrong decisions on their part, imo. Anyway, I myself came full circle, and, business aside, went to get back the hobby - one man band shooting small cameras. Hence I'm reading this forum, and not reduser, etc. :). But they were pioneers of cameras which could be compared to film. Yes there was Viper, Genesis, etc. Still, the digital takeover started with Red.

Yeah, see people at newshooters, they are clearly clueless as they have no idea where is the hate in the comment section come from as they keep reposting IG post from red

With each of these videos, I'm reminded why I support open source, standardization, and collaboration. @Andrew Reid, I'm glad you wrote this despite being under substantial threat. In my opinion, this Jinni Tech saga is not getting the press it deserves, and I only hope it isn't because people are too afraid to say anything. RED should be given a platform to respond, but should not be able to sue away negative press.

RED is a patent troll. The fact that they sued Andrew in 2010 to keep his mouth shut tells you all you need to know. That is patent troll behavior. Ready to hear more facts.

I can't wait for the final Scooby Doo style unmasking.

Don't mention the communists to Jim!! Ironic choice of music Mr Jinni Tech.

The hint at the end about what awaits in Part 4 might well actually top it !

Opps, was that the sound of the industry being turned upside down?