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In my opinion, you’re looking at this too analytically. Test charts and head turning videos on boring sets can only tell you so much. One of the most important factors in any image is rendering and an MTF chart will not show you that... only your eyes will. For instance, the Veydra vs Zeiss CP.2 numbers you referenced... Take the Zeiss 28mm f/2 lens for example... the Contax version was known as “The Hollywood” due to the way it renders the OOF edges of the frame due to the extreme field curvature. The ZF Classic version is a very similar design as the C/Y version and uses the same glass as the CP.2. Check our this, real world, review of that lens... https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.mingthein.com/2012/07/19/zf28distagon/amp/ Also look at Cookes or Baltars... they aren’t perfect lenses by any means, but they have character and some of the best films of all time have been shot with them. Anamorphic lenses are revered due to their flaws. Color separation, tonality, 3D Pop, OOF highlights and even flaws... these characteristic can add charm and dimension to your images. They can help you tell the visual story you’re trying to tell.

This thread is mostly for me, but I figured that I'd post it instead of just making my own notes as it might be of casual interest to someone. Read at your own peril - this will likely fall down every rabbit-hole available. Still with me? Ok, to catch up to where I am, watch and study these videos.... If you're not lusting after the $40,000 Zeiss Master Anamorphic after watching the first one then go watch them all again before proceeding. I've just sold my car (wasn't using it) so more money for lenses! I use a GH5 and own the Voigtlander 17.5mm f0.95 which I really like, and I've settled on having a super-wide ~8mm and probably ~40mm lengths. The Voigt is pretty rubbish wide-open, but when compared to F2 lenses the Voigt is already stopped-down two stops when they're wide open, so if you're stopping it down a bit then there's real advantages, plus if I ever need the extra exposure (I shoot in available light so that happens sometimes) or want to have the shallow DoF (which also happens) then I can do that. I own the SLR Magic 8mm F4 which is an ok lens, isn't that great optically but isn't terrible either, but it's a drone lens so the ergonomics are completely rubbish. I also own both the Konica Hexanon 40mm f1.8 and Helios 58mm F2 plus an m42 SB. I am not a fan of the swirly bokeh of the Helios (although using it on MFT gets rid of the majority of it on the edges of the frame), and I used the 40mm wide-open on a recent trip and it did not perform well, to put it mildly. Soft as hell as well as all sorts of nasty aberrations. The Voigtlander 42.5mm f0.95 would be stopped down two stops when rendering the same image, so that's something to consider. I've previously identified that I wanted the Laowa 7.5mm F2 lens and was happy with the Konica, but after the Konica had its minor meltdown I'm now wondering if I should replace it with the Voigtlander, or what I should do. Speaking with some pros on other forums about lenses, and especially the guys that know what they're doing in post, the advice was to capture the highest resolution image you can and degrade it in post, or use something like a Black Pro Mist filter. Before I spend any real money on some lenses I figured doing some real research and working out what I really want might be in order, thus this line of thinking and this thread. Next step is to study cine lenses and see what they are actually doing, even just as a reference point.

Here you go Now shows your work This one was shot by my brother & i done the edit

Nice! .........and drive it to the store to buy all the Meike lenses!

No need to buy a faulty Blackmagic Pocket any more. And this pocket cinema camera actually ships on time. Cinema DNG is real raw, the results are incredible. Full frame... can't do without it. Very adaptable lens mount, more so than EF on Pocket 6K. Screen is visible in daylight...always a bonus Autofocus can sort you out a quick shot in RAW but is not bullet proof... I am looking forward to putting manual focus Leica M lenses on my Fp, personally... More cinematic than autofocus material will ever be. It has a very good E-stabilisation mode. Locks down an image. Crops-in quite a lot, but makes nice alternative to a Super 35mm mode Colour profiles are cinematic as hell. Orange & Teal is not "overdone", it's very sexy indeed. Ergonomics are almost Leica-like in simplicity and responsiveness. Very good menus. Very snappy and responsive to use. It is the size of a Sony RX1 And about as heavy... weighs nothing!! The build quality however leaves absolutely nought to be desired, it is as solid as a rock and feels expensive. All the controls have a camera-feel to them, unlike the RX1 Is a bit smaller than a Leica Q but feels even better made. Mounting holes on side of the body are nice pro touch. And there is no consumer junk in the menus, and no mode dial. Does not feel like a toy, feels made for artists. No mechanical shutter, so it's completely silent. Uses same battery as our favourite GH2!! Keeps the size down. Amazingly, it shoots 4K RAW on the GH2's little battery... Think about that The 40mm F2.8 has the rendering of something faster, looks more like an F2... Very well made, lovely metal casing and manual aperture ring, yet keeps the size down to RX1 / Leica Q proportions when attached. Not tried my EF lenses on the MC adapter yet. Will be interesting to see how the IS handles. Oh, and it has a Sensor Temperature readout in the Info menus... Mine's at 31 degrees Celsius ?

Before anyone gets too misty eyed remember this is the same person who bullied employees for whistle blowing against Lance Armstrong and threatened news sites with law suits for being critical. He is also the master of hype and could just as easily have stubbed his toe as be facing real medical problems.

Thought about doing it? Nope, me neither. Except.....I've been thinking quite a lot about the Meike cine primes over the past couple of weeks and the slight sticking point of them being tied into the MFT lens mount cameras. Its not a massive deal breaker particularly as there are no shortage of great options to mount them on but as someone who also owns a couple of E mount cameras, it would be nice to have the versatility of being able to use them on those too, albeit it in APS-C mode. The Veydras, which the Meike lenses are "closely associated" with, did have an E mount option IIRC but the new ones don't. Which got me thinking about whether, as there is some flange distance to play with, there was an MFT to E mount adapter available and it turns out that there is one made by Pixco so £18 later, I now have it and here it is. As there isn't a massive amount of flange distance to play with (1.25mm) then the adapter is understandably quite thin yet doesn't particularly feel flimsy but I did find that when changing lenses its better to dismount the lens with the adapter attached and then re-attach it to the next lens as its a bit fiddly to lift the locking pin release on the adapter. Now the first thing to say is, other than to just try that it works, there is absolutely no point in mounting an electronic MFT lens such as this. You will have absolutely no control of the aperture, focus and in most cases the lens will not fill the sensor. So, absolutely pointless and probably explains why there is no particularly buoyant market in making these adapters Of course, for our purposes, of mounting manual only MFT lenses to it then it works perfectly. That doesn't just go for the Meike lenses but of course for any manual lens such as Voigtlander, Samyang, 7Artisans etc. Its worth checking but most of these lenses are usually originally made for APS-C so even in MFT mount they will have enough coverage. Where things get really interesting for me though, and I suspect for people with both MFT and E mount systems is being able to re-utilise existing MFT adapters. For me, these range from an obvious one such as PL... To being able to use my Nikon F/G to MFT speed booster which with its integral aperture lever control is so much more usable than having to use a Canon version with a thin F adapter on it and the fiddly aperture lever. Next up is being able to mount the Vizelex Lens Throttle Variable ND adapter to make a compact fast swappable full frame system with vintage primes. Last but not least is being able to use Aputure DEC Lens Regain on the A6500 to speedboost Canon lenses and have electronic follow focus control. OK, so most of these things can be done with dedicated E mount versions of these adapters but the biggest issue is the additional cost of buying them all again if you run both systems. That £18 adapter (which I had no idea existed ) has saved well over £1000 in additional adapters for the E mount cameras. Using my warped justification logic, that means I am now legally entitled to buy two of the Meike primes as I will still be £250 up on the deal Seriously though, for anyone who is moving from an MFT to E mount system or who has E mount cameras and never had MFT but wants to take advantage of the usually less expensive and more widely available MFT versions of adapters available used then its definitely worth splashing out the £18 for one of these. Ditto for anyone who has a Z mount system as Pixco also make an MFT to Z mount adapter with which you can do the same tricks.

The URSA didn't get on the list with BRAW, they did it with ProRes. I was going to sell all of my m43 kit and get two Panasonic S1 cams. Upon further research, the S1 didn't cut it for me even when the V-Log upgrade. Just too many video modes missing that I've grown to love from the GH series. So I've decided to keep my GH5S with the PanaLeica 12-60 f/2.8-4 and add in the S1H. I just bought the Panasonic 24-105 f/4 and I'll be picking up the S1H next week. The nice thing is, I already have a Ninja V external recorder, so I should be ProRes RAW ready in the near future. I hate shooting from a mixed system, (different batteries, different lens, different colors to match and whatnot) but I'm also not dropping cash for two S1H cams either! ? I also have 2 or 3 pieces of FD glass that I just bought L-mount adapters for, so that should scratch my bokeh itch for the near future. Now I just gotta get some more gigs to pay for all of this shit!

Have this lens. Image stabilization works very well. It's controlled by the camera and by default is ON. You can turn it off in the menu (Setup). Am sure was mentioned before but IS on BMPCC 4K works only when you start recording if you are using the internal battery. Obviously this is made to preserve the battery which doesn't last long. If you use external battery IS works all the time before recording and during recording. During firmware upgrade was also stuck at 70% but after some time camera said upgrade finished and it works OK. That was my second try. First try disconnected by accident the USB cable. But after re connection was able to start upgrade from scratch and finish it successfully. So in my understanding firmware upgrade is well thought out. But new firmware 6.6 broke (again) Viltrox speed booster functionality. Aperture and IS don't work with Viltrox firmware version 2.3 neither with version 3.3.☹️

The only thing I wish the Fp had was phase-detect on-chip autofocus. And maybe an articulated screen like the RX1R II It is an amazing, unique camera as it is, and an absolute blast. Last time I had this much fun was when I first picked up a GH2 all those years ago. 60p in 12bit 1080p RAW. 4K 60p RAW Cinema DNG file sizes would be astronomical. Like 6 min per 128GB or something crazy. Yes, I wish it had 4K/60p full frame 10bit but we are not in year 2022 yet Not even S1H can do it. Super 35mm mode.

Test Flog and color grading Davinci 15

Hate to spoil the $6000 Canon fanclub party, but I took delivery of the Sigma Fp today and glad to say the full frame 4K CDNG is incredible. Looks nothing like 8bit RAW... More like having 14bit Magic Lantern with huge dynamic range. Whatever they have done with colour science on this camera it is very clever. Remains to be calculated how large the file sizes are in 4K 8bit RAW mode internally. Massive I expect! Going to try the 12bit next via USB C to my Samsung T5. But the internal MOV ALL-I 4K is also very nice. Bitrate is a very high 400Mbit in this mode. It's a beast.

Just won an Oscar but nobody uses it for video? From freesolo director: "What cameras and lenses did the high-angle team have in hand? On the walls we were shooting with the Canon C300s [Mark II]. Since I was directing and shooting, and also shooting a NatGeo story on top of it, I was filming with the Canon 1DX Mark II so I could film but also shoot stills. But everybody else was on the C300s. When we were up on the wall, we were using EF lenses, but when we shot vérité we often had the Canon Cinema Primes. The long shots from the ground up the wall were through the Canon 50–1000mm Cine-Servos. As you can imagine, that was a very critical lens throughout this film. Canon went above and beyond in their support of this film. We were very lucky indeed." They used 1Dx II also as remote triggered video camera, on the BTS you can spot them multiple time. They had custom made long range camera triggers build around Arduino and long range radio Again tons of pro photographer for Action and Sports do shoot video and many do with the same DSLR that we use for photo. It is not for you but the pro action and sport market is much bigger than the hobbits or limited budget video market and yes we shot video too

Has anyone in here bought any Dalsa camera ? ? In case you don't remember Dalsa's rental price was 3k$/day !!! How it compares with 15k$ to own RedOne ? Jannard's revolution made those camera affordable to all of us .

I prefer shooting in 6K as well. The image after downscaling in Resolve Studio is way smoother and doesn't show any digital halo sharpening artifacts when Scaling is either set to Smoother or Bicubic unlike the internal 4K footage which seems to use lanczos or spline.

I'm not arguing that he's a great person, but comparing him to people accused of sexual assault is pretty unfair.

RED was not the first to offer a cinema camera that shot 4K raw -- that distinction goes to Dalsa. Dalsa introduced their 4K raw camera at the 2003 NAB. At any rate, 4K raw and compressed raw were inevitable and obvious in the cinema world. At the Dalsa 2003 launch, raw files and the megapixels war had already been around for years in the still photo world. So, it doesn't take a genius to simply apply such notions to moving pictures. In regards to RED's wavelet compression, it had already been established in JPEG2000. So, it doesn't take a huge mental leap to merely apply the same compression method to another video format.

Andrew, just a suggestion for an interesting sub topic for your S1H analysis and review, should you have time. Paul at ExtraShot found (see 12:08 in this video) that shooting 6k 4:2:0 and downsampling to 4k in FCPX gave superior results to shooting in 4k 4:2:2 in the camera. In other words, FCPX makes a better job of the downsampling (and notwithstanding the lower color subsampling of the 6k footage) than does the camera on the fly. The implication of this is that, if a user has a computer with sufficient grunt power, they should shoot everything in 6k, even when they don't need to crop in post. The DCI (4k) resulting from shooting in 4k and downsampling in post will be even higher quality than the 'native' (out of camera) DCI 4k. (Paul notes in the comments that he only tested this using FCPX - the quality of downsampling 6k->4k might not be the same with other NLEs...though, logically, it might be that some are even better in this respect...who knows...)

One of the main reasons a lot of cameras like this don’t make the Netflix list is Timecode. The C200 raw is one of the best Images under $20k, but does not have timecode I/O and therefore doesn’t make the list. Netflix officials have even stated that is why it isn’t on the list. Same with Pocket 4k/6k. smart of Panasonic to include it so they can make this list.

My Baby is Netflixx APRROVED mkay! autofocus is for amateurs ? but yah i have to give it to Canon they really nailed the PDAF technology

Netflix won't take any prisoners from any "enthusast" camera no matter what the specs, so S1H is an impressive solid benchmark recognition of quality. Now could 1DXMk3, or even FP, ever enter this terrotory, as I think 1DC was once approved for broadcast use ?

I’d love to hear a comparison between 1080p ML Raw at 14bit vs Sigma’s 1080p Raw at 12bit in your review.

My experience is very similar between my Canon 28mm 1.8 and Canon 35mm f/2 IS. The 35mm is hands down a “better” lens, but the 28mm has way more character.

I'm sorry my fellow of boards, but such comparisons are truly unfair to say the least. I've had my portion of personal contact with his people, work and company for a decade and a half now. Without mention to have had the privilege of private touch with the legend himself. Such antihero portrait is crappy lower resolution at best. Myth. Stinky sad one. Maybe if he would be a fool, he would equally bashed by usual detractors in a way or another. It doesn't make justice to the individual who some other people have dealt with for real in the world over here. On your compressed RAW remark, let's see: They were the beginners to do it. Any doubt? Nothing else counts for the matter. Would you do it in a different way? In the name of who or what? They only protect their property.

Depending on model E5-26xx or E5-24xx. Difference being socket and number of PCIe lanes. I have been looking a bit at E5-2650 v2 that should be decently compared against 2600 but with 8 cores and you can have two of them. E5-2620 might be too slow with E3-2630 minimum entry depending on price. It's like E5-2650 but with 6 cores instead of 8. v2 have higher clock speed. It is easy to find the subpar garbage CPU tho, like E5-2407 or E5-2609. Those two are common entry level CPU but ridiculously slow to the point where I have no idea why they where every made. Even the "modern" generation of the same CPU is worse than the old stuff.

I think I should really thank Harvey Wolfenstein and Kevin Spacey for their wonderful films, without them the cinema world is definitely less interesting. Thanks to RED to keep us stuck with H.264! I am really thankful!

He's a legend made by himself. Without him, we'd never have the prices as low as we have today. I heard this from the mouth of a Sony VP in person. The story on his health needs which taken him away to his deserved retirement is not new BTW. Just made public now. He's a warrior, this fight has years. He didn't stop, he kept it going. As well his inventive market introductions. Massively distributed. Ahead of his time. Unique master of his craft. An example but for every producer. He is one of the key factors of the digital revolution. We owe him our tools of nowadays. We really should appreciate gratitude. It's disgusting otherwise.

Honestly i been meaning to ask the question about brick walls, been giving it a little thought. I feel your a little too condescending towards the unambiguous brick wall. I'm not sure they deserve being slighted by you. Personally i like em, their strong, upright in character, come in a range of colours, they usually built square and level, they don't move around much, which is handy when you want to go back for another lens test shot. They do give you a cheap way to test for three specific aberrations in a lens: rectilinear distortion, edge sharpness, and vignetting. They may not give you the mtf of a lens or how many lines of resolution a lens will resolve. I do think there's room in everyone's digital darkroom for brick wall test chart.? edit : there is veydra mini cimema primes on ebay at the moment whether any of them are good prices i dont know

Which is why all roads should lead to Meike for you and your GH5 When the additional focal lengths are released shortly the entire 6 lens set will be available for less than £2500, which is a seriously good deal based on their "similarity" to Veydras. The bigger investment for you though if you went that route would be in adapting to the practicalities of using them, predominantly in terms of using some sort of follow focus. On the upside, with a matched cine set having commonality in terms of focus gear placement, filter thread size means swapping lenses is simpler than when using a disparate bunch of stills lenses. I'd actually say that in terms of adding bulk and conspicuousness to your shooting rig, the Tilta Nucleus Nano wireless follow focus is neither here nor there compared to a small shotgun mic with a furry on it and the difference it will make to your focusing control is well worth it. Of course investing in the Meike's would tie you in to sticking with MFT mount cameras but with BM and Z Cam offering more pure cinema paths should you want a different alternative to your GH5 then its not a particularly bad cul de sac. Well, I say it keeps you tied in to MFT mount cameras but I'll put up a thread later on that actually disproves that

Indeed. They skip the fact that we are talking about technology and sales plus innovation to cine industry. Like we are Judges to judge if someone is a good or bad boss on his employees and like we are medical citics to investigate if someone has serious health issues or he is just tired and focus on his personal life. We are here for other reasons.

This is the Zeiss CP2 wide-open at T2.1: This is the Xeen wide-open at T1.5: This is the Zeiss CP2 at T4: This is the Xeen at T4: To my eye, both look soft wide open and both look great at T4. Here's their MTF charts: The Xeen is quite obviously far worse than the CP.2 when wide open, yet the test shots appear similar to me. Or, at least, the difference in focal distance between them could account for the entire difference. Relating this back to myself, I find focus to be a hit-and-miss affair so there's not much point nit-picking at something I will almost never completely nail. Stopped down they both improve vastly, both in the charts as well as in the images. In theory the CP.2 has way worse performance due to much greater field curvature, but there's nothing in frame in the test shots, so who knows. I think the Xeen was the worst performing lens wide-open that I saw in the above articles, so not being able to see it in the test images is interesting. To illustrate a point, here's the $40,000 Zeiss Master Anamorphic wide open at T1.9: Not so high resolution either, although I couldn't find an MTF for this lens, the resolution of the others (at least in the centre where we actually have something in focus) is better at T4 than this lens is at T1.9, so this is simply a fact of life. What it does mean, however, is that wide-open resolution isn't the focus, it's resolution at apertures that you will shoot. Just for fun, here's a modified and re-branded Helios 58mm F2 at T4: It obviously has less contrast (the mod removed all the coatings to deliberately make it flare - which it does spectacularly) but the resolution is also there.

Its not needed in Resolve as Sigma have already added the required matrices and linearization table (for their log encoded versions) so you can convert to ACES as outlined. I can't speak for other apps or workflows though. Resolve has support through RCM (Resolve Colour Management) and CST for all major camera manufacturers log curves and gamuts so you could interpret the DNGs using RCM for instance into any gamma/gamut correctly for the given white balance setting if you would prefer. But that's why i recommend the Rec709 approach in Resolve for the Sigma DNGs (or RCM as mentioned would also work). One major issue for DNG for us was that there is no standard way defined to interpret DNGs into different colour spaces or even ISOs through metadata which was a big focus for Blackmagic RAW*. This is why DNGs from our cameras look different across various apps, because they are free to interpret them as they want. So we had the same problem with other apps and our DNGs, but it was worse as most other apps don't have an equivalent to RCM or CST to manage the transform into Blackmagic colour spaces. *That's ignoring how slow DNG is to decode (relatively) and that even at 4:1 compression, DNGs from our cameras had image artefacts in certain scenes and situations we weren't happy with (5:1 was evaluated to be not useable/releasable to the public) which is a real problem as resolution and frame rates increase and is even a problem for recording 6K to affordable media (or even 4.6K at high frame rates). Even if we weren't put into the situation to drop DNG when we did, IMHO it's unlikely it would be a good viable solution long term with where things are heading and the amount of complaints about DNG we got/saw and had ourselves. It was great when the first Blackmagic cameras were HD (2.4K) and 30fps, but that even Adobe themselves seemed to have no interest in maintaining or developing it further it's limitations now can't be ignored.

Ah, well, if we're comparing RAW to compressed anything then it's a different ballgame! In terms of that highlight recovery - I'm not convinced. More likely the camera was shooting the first thing but the ISO settings that the camera recorded in metadata would have blown the image all to hell, then the NLE gets the file, applies the ISO blowing the highlights well and truly, then you adjust them down and voila - the signal that was recorded. This protects against camera operator error, but not if you actually blow out the image. Try shooting in full sun wide open without an ND at base ISO then try and "recover" the file... 12-bit won't save that!!

Given its image quality and features it makes sense. Still waiting for the ghosting fix though... Well, it blows it away that's for sure but not only in terms of dynamic range and great roll-off but also its color science and lack of sharpening but higher levels of detail at the same time.

It's a special Brexit price.

Regardless of RED and their business practices, Jim changed the landscape, disrupted the status quo, and helped push video/filmmaking forward. He deserves credit and gratitude for that. I just wish RED hadn't taken the path they took.

Looking at the spec and trying to reconcile that much functionality with Canon's track record of holding things back certainly has me thinking "Trick or Treat" about that camera. I used to really like playing horror video games like Resident Evil and Silent Hill but have never really been interested in watching horror films for some reason. But then again, I would never in a million years eat a prawn cocktail but I'm quite partial to prawn cocktail flavoured crisps so I'm awash with contradictions

Two completely distinct tech realms. Jim Jannard is an enthusiast. I realize some people don't understand him and become too obsessed with their billions. Not a good show to see. Really.

To each their own, I recently bought a C200 not expecting to use RAW that much but with the very simple workflow, USB-C speed & storage space coming way down, I'm finding myself shooting RAW as much as possible. It's kind of hard to go back to 8-bit after 10-bit but even harder once you start messing with 12-bit RAW. Having access to RAW internally at a flick of a switch is a godsend imo and brings me back to MLRaw days (minus the post workflow & reliability issues!). I have 2 Atomos recorders (including the V) and use them as monitors 95% of the time. Internal recording is the way to go for me. HEIC is also very interesting for stills giving basically 10-bit 4:2:2 vs 8-bit 4:2:0 for JPGs.

Hopefully the RAW patent will be a lost suit, and RED will miraculously turn honest, and work towards a wider reach for its products. RED could never have succeeded with Hydrogen because it attempted to beat Apple and Samsung at a game they themselves are losing. Also to assume that last generation smartphone sensors and processors can equal or beat much larger cameras was ludicrous to begin with. Smartphone Sensors and Computational Photography will improve substantially in 2020. Also I am guessing if RED loses the compressed RAW suit, the chances of smartphones moving from the present 10-bit 422 to compressed RAW is also pretty high.

It definitely does for docu and run and gun shooters. Dual pixel becomes invaluable once you’ve tried it. Contrast AF isn’t reliable and too slow to be useable. Both cameras are built for different uses and shouldn’t be compared with each other.

Oh shit here we go! Pal there about 50 lenses available as we speak for L mount https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ci=17912&fct=fct_lens-mount_3442|leica-l-mount&N=4196380428 as for 1DX3 buries the S1H imho.. I own S1H and am not here to defend it but it BURIES your 1dxmiii ? the specs u listed for 2020 and price with no Cinema features like anamorphic or true Cinema 24p on other hand am really happy for canon shooters there finally getting 10bit internal in 2020 where is Panasonic shooters had it since 2017!

I literally cannot wait for this trial. The most annoying thing about Zaxcom is how they troll message boards getting mad at people who call out their business practices. Look, we get that you're "within your rights" to exploit an extremely broad patent. But when you're going to stop innovation in the industry and only make your technology available through your extremely expensive hardware, you're going to rub some people the wrong way. We're within OUR rights to think your company's business practices suck.

He was right about the patent challenge though, if not necessarily his downbeat view of whether it will stand up. That event he was referencing is an IP conference and they are hosting that day's trials from the US Patent Office . https://www.aipla.org/am19/expand/program The second one being Lectrosonics vs Zaxcom. Whether functionality changes may occur to these new products based on the outcome of that remains to be seen of course!

@IronFilm I'm praying that RED looses to Apple in the lawsuit