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  1. AFX is the long overdue focus control expansion option for our PBC system for BM Pocket4K/6K cameras. With AFX and its included handheld remote you can control manual focus of MFT/EF lenses but also operate our newly created Single and Continuous AF modes for the camera. These new AF-S/C modes are made possible by the AFX’s integral ToF sensor which constantly measures object distance from the camera. As well as allowing you to control focus using the thumbstick and AF-S/C switching, the handheld remote also enables you to map any of the camera controls such as ISO/Aperture/WB etc to five of its hardware switches as well as being able to toggle Record Start/Stop from one of its two finger trigger buttons. All communication between the AFX, the handheld controller, the PBC and the camera are performed wirelessly and, as with the PBC, the AFX runs from its own internal battery or USB. The AFX will be priced at €199 (plus the cost of the PBC for new adopters) and pre-orders begin next month. Here are some basic examples of the AFX in manual focus, Single and Continuous AF modes. In AF-S mode, current focus is held until you press the trigger button so is equivalent to half shutter press/Back Focus Button on a regular (D)SLR or mirrorless. More to follow as the pre-order date approaches.
    7 points
  2. Agreed. Its got more more than a whiff of this about it. Particularly the having to take refuge in a fridge aspect.
    4 points
  3. I'd like to hear from Tilta as well as Canon. If my fridge doesn't cool the camera externally what does their fan do differently? Canon said officially: "Use an external fan to dissipate heat" Well I used an external fridge to dissipate heat and it made no fucking difference.
    4 points
  4. Same thing here! I will only buy an RF cine camera as an addition to hybrid camera because it's the main tool for what we do, even though we use video cameras for some projects.
    3 points
  5. I like ProAV as a company to buy from and their videos about products are hype free and informative. However, I think that video is a misstep by them and there are some presumptions in there from them about how you could use it that won't leave them with a leg to stand on when people want to return them. I'm utterly baffled why they would make a video about something with that many caveats in it without closing with "and of course we won't be taking any orders for these until all of these issues are at the very least clarified by Canon".
    3 points
  6. Who can really know besides Canon, however at the time of the official R5 launch, I had open a pre-order for the R5 at one shop and at another shop I had a pre-order for R5 and the R6. I received R5 shipping notification July 29th from the one shop where I pre-ordered the R5 only, but the shop where I had a pre-order for the R5 and R6 sent the following email on the 31st of July. "We have cancelled your pre-order for the R5. A refund has been processed and will be in your account in 3-4 business days. I found out only yesterday that there was a delay that was not communicated with us from Canon that has affected our ability to ship the R5 and will also affect our ability to ship the R6 on time as well." So thinking back, I have never seen or heard of a shop automatically cancelling and refunding payments to customers unless they had a real reason to do so.
    3 points
  7. /troll on Canon is doing a silent recall, so no one heard or know about... /Toll off
    3 points
  8. What really bugs me is when they say some company sent them the product but they are not sponsored and that we will get an honest review. It's like wtf. The whole reason your channel has relevancy is because these companies send you these products early for you to do your 'honest' review which consists of gushing over how awesome the product is except for one little flaw that's not a big deal. Let's be real, these guys cream all over themselves to exchange emails with companies like Sony and Canon and Apple and Samsung about new product launches and there is no way they can be objective at all regardless of whether they say its sponsored or not. Either they got the product early or they are building their channel up to get the product early. And you can't do that by burning bridges. So to mediate this conundrum they find themselves in they say they did not send the video to be checked. Doesn't matter. They are psychologically chained to make sure they keep these corporations happy so they can keep getting their emails and possibility of early product reviews. They keep the video 95% positive and then mention some weak point every one already knows while basically showing a 10 minute commercial of tracking shots of said product. They then every once in a while pick a product from a smaller company to trash or do a really honest review not concerned with a backlash from that company. The only exception is when the corporation releases a real stinker of a product and everyone knows which gives them cover to post an 'honest' review. These people are basically marketing mouthpieces and pretend like they are doing us a service when they are just basically a new cog in an overhyped consumerist economy.
    3 points
  9. What a mess Canon made. If they wanted to protect their cinema line, they should have just put a 5-min time limit on the 8k and 4khq modes instead of an overheat timer. That way it was at least usable as a b-cam. Now you have an unreliable piece of expensive junk you cannot trust at all.
    3 points
  10. Lighting is pretty much the most important thing for what we do. It’s what makes your images sing. Here’s a bunch of lights I highly recommend: 1. Falcon Eyes F7 Ridiculously awesome light for the price. Everyone should have at least one. Super bright for a small light. Very useful. Essential. Possibly my favourite right now. 2. Falcon Eyes 24TDX II Flex lights are expensive. Not this. Build quality is great. Super useful. Waterproof. Put anywhere! 3. Luxli Taiko In my opinion, better than the Arri Skypanel which is 3-4 times the price. Best colour accuracy I’ve ever seen and very easy to use. Only downside is the power unit. Feels a bit cheap and not long enough. 4. Godox S30 I think this makes the $3k Dedolight equivalent almost obsolete. For 10% of the price? Super optics for the projection attachment. Downsides are the power goes down to 10w from 30w when using batteries. 5. Colorspike The light pattern customisation is immense and looks way more organic than preset effects from other lights. An incredible tool. Only downsides is the carry case is a bit “meh” and diffuser is fiddly. 6. Astera Titan Tubes These are way more expensive than other mentioned lights. They share some ideas with the Colorspike’s but on a much higher level. These things are insane and worth every penny. I don’t own them but what they can do.... wow!! Downsides... 8 tube case is very very heavy. They are expensive. What are your current favourite lights?
    2 points
  11. Canon really threw the kitchen sink at the EOS R5 specs sheet. What about the kitchen fridge? Canon have stated overheating time limits for HQ video recording in a warm 23 °C room. How does the camera perform in much colder conditions? Does the EOS R5 still overheat in the Wifi menu in a fridge? Or do the cold temperature help cool the camera body, which Canon claims act as mitigation for hot components inside? Read the full article: https://www.eoshd.com/news/canon-eos-r5-overheated-in-my-fridge-after-just-60-jpegs-4-c-ambient/
    2 points
  12. BTM_Pix

    Sony A7S III

    You might want to have a look at the Expodisc. Pops onto your lens to get 18% grey for white balance but you can then also use it as an incident light meter too. They have videos on their YouTube channel showing how to use it for WB and ones like this about using it to meter
    2 points
  13. I shall nickname my EOS R5 "Boris 5"
    2 points
  14. Thanks Yes but it has a spread so it depends on distance to subject. Again, depending on subject distance and the focal length and aperture, you can grab focus using AF-S by aiming the camera (or turning the unit if you prefer) to the subject at the edge of frame and there should be enough latitude for it to be in focus. It is all situational though so, in general, it should be considered centre zone only with the additional option to grab and lock focus of an edge subject or use the thumbstick to manually tune focus. Its a set of additional tools rather than the magic bullet but as I've mentioned there are actually two AF units coming and the second one is very different both in terms of functionality and certainly in price.
    2 points
  15. cpc

    Sony A7S III

    The sun is so bright that you'd need significant underexposure to bring it down to below clip levels (on any camera). And these images don't look underexposed to me. A clipping value of 0.87106 is still very respectable: on the s-log3 curve, this is slightly more than 6 stops above middle gray. With "metadata ISO" cameras like the Alexa the clip point in Log-C moves up with ISOs higher than base, and lower with ISOs lower than base. But on Sony A7s cameras you can't rate lower than base in s-log (well, on the A7s you can't, at least), so this is likely shot at base s-log3 ISO 640. I any case, the s-log3 curve has a nominal range of around 9 stops below mid gray (usable range obviously significantly lower), so this ties up with the boasted 15 stops of DR in video. You can think of the camera as shooting 10 - log2(1024/ (0.87*1024 - 95)) bit footage in s-log3. That is, as a 9.64 bit camera. 🙂
    2 points
  16. Yeah their get-out clause is always "I wasn't paid!" That isn't the main thing. They have formed a relationship with an important company that is giving them relevance and an elevated pedestal online, Canon even put McKinnon in the official R5 launch on the same platform as their Japanese bosses. Is he really going to turn around and bite that hand... A good way to put it 🙂 It is a stampede to get noticed and be relevant. Although they may not get paid for reviews, they DO get paid for speaking on behalf of big companies at events like Photokina. They DO get their expensive travel plans and hotels paid for and sometimes a trip to a tropical island. If they were upfront about all this, it would amount to a big YES I DO GET PAID. Just be honest about it. I want guys like Peter to do a video with a big gurning AMAZED face saying "YES I AM A BIASED PROSTITUTE" Sadly I feel the audience responds to this! They love it and come back for more. They fall for it hook line and sinker every time! If they didn't, companies like Canon would not bother giving out the cameras. Yep seen a few of those too.
    2 points
  17. I've not used the older Falcon Eyes, all I know are the new versions are waterproof, have built-in effects (which are pretty good!), have a new better ballast which can mount to a light stand, better colors and build quality. I love it, it's an essential part of my kit now. The Taiko is probably the best light I have ever used. I've never used the Aputure Nova, and I was honestly put off by the weight with the hard case. It's like 50+ pounds, whereas the Taiko is around 20 pounds with the case. I can compare to the Arri Skypanel which is more similar to the Nova, and the Arri is an absolute chore to transport. Overall I think the Taiko is better than the Skypanel for 1/3rd price. The Taiko is just about lightweight enough, very good for a 2:1 light. The Taiko has better colour accuracy and has better punch. The RGB brightness is hugely impressive!! The app is also absolutely fantastic. It comes with different diffuser strengths or you can make the light hard with no diffuser.
    2 points
  18. No it does not overheat. It is a fake information displayed on the screen to stop you for recording video HQ based on time and not temperatures. Canon never says taking a 60 pictures per hour will stop you from taking video in HQ mode. Sorry; These are plain lies from the brand that limits the video capability drastically. The 8K logo on the main poster is clearly misleading. This was never explained anywhere.
    2 points
  19. AF performance differs radically based on lighting. A flatly lit face will track much better than a moodily lit one. Contrasty lighting bit me hard on a C700 shoot, and wasted 5 minutes of valuable setup time wrestling with AF settings. I'm sure it works well for many people and many projects; personally, I'm not ready to give up the level of control I have with a wireless puller.
    2 points
  20. The S1's AF with Panasonic, native lenses (or the Sigma 45mm f2.8, which I have also tried) seemed pretty darn good to me. If the subject is clear and there was decent contrast, it seemed pretty darn smooth to me. Where it had trouble is backlit subjects or scenes with very little contrast. But, at the same time, the EOS R and C200 have failed on me consistently under the same conditions and I've missed shots relying on the AF.
    2 points
  21. Hangs4Fun

    Sony A7S III

    Here is a similar technique that I loosely described above. For example the below picture profile settings, came from Paul over at "extrashot", he used similar techniques to arrive at these settings for the A7 mark III to get as close to the FX9's s.Cinetone as possible (limited of course due to the 4:2:0 8bit nature of the a7iii's sensor, but close enough for government work, lol): **A7 Mark III Picture Profile settings to simulate FX9 and s.Cinetone: Black Level: -10 Gamma: Cine2 Black Gamma: Range Middle, Level -7 Knee: Mode Manual, 100%, Slope 0 Colour Mode: Still Saturation 0 Color Phase: -1 Colour Depth: R: +2 G; +1 B: -1 C : 0 M: +1 Y: 0 Detail: Level -7 **to get as close as possible, A7iii is 8bit camera, soooo, not gonna be perfect 😉 If Paul doesn't beat me to it, I will share the settings I come up with color matching the A7Siii with an FX9's s.Cinetone (I signed up for prioritized shipping from Sony PRO support and had my pre-order confirmation email in hand within the first 10 secs of 10am on 7/28, so I should be one of the first with a production model). Changes are Paul will beat me to the punch, since he owns an FX9, and I will have to arrange to borrough one. He uses almost the same exact technique as me, so his results would be pretty much identical. We both try to do it as scientifical as possible, which is why our results comes out almost the same (but there is still a "gray" area when doing the picture profile adjustments, which is very touchy)
    2 points
  22. Mr. Brynn North dropping another beautiful montage. GH5, Speedbooster, Canon 7-200 f4, Sigma 18-35 f1.8, and Sigma 50-100 f1.8. All manual focus. All very well done. Would love to see longer docu-style pieces from him. All his travels films he does for himself have a more serious, respectful tone to them.
    2 points
  23. You can buy the Lumix S5 and be happy about its astonishing video quality and great codecs. Too bad I bought the S1 instead eight months ago. Seems like the S5 is the best you can get for your money. An awesome deal! We will see September the 2nd, as Andrew stated. S1 owners will be a bit grumpy that day.:)
    1 point
  24. You need to prioritize. You can't have everything. It seems like your understanding of cameras is not that great, and in that case I would put off investing too much in cameras until you understand what you actually need. If you really need to get close to a subject while it's pitch dark, you should get a lens with a shorter zoom range and larger aperture. Learning how to use noise reduction properly is also much more affordable than quadrupling your ISO performance. An all-in-one 1" camera and putting the rest of your budget into sound equipment might be good. This is not at all what you asked for, but it might serve you well.
    1 point
  25. Llaasseerr

    Sony A7S III

    Yeah that's a fair point about not carrying the light meter in the wilderness. The grey card is great to have in your pre-roll though. For me personally I found false color a great quick way of doing it. For on-the fly shooting I use a vari ND and a grey card and wait til I get green hitting the card on the false color then I'm good to go. I hate frankenrigs too, but maybe look at getting a cheap small 5" lightweight plastic hdmi monitor with false color and custom LUTs like the Fotga. Just an aside, from what I gather the Pana S1H has a tool for exposing based on looking at a grey card - that sure would be nice in other small mirrorless cameras.
    1 point
  26. Llaasseerr

    Sony A7S III

    Actually, I just checked and Slog3 and Rec709 both have almost the same middle grey value of around 0.41 - which I imagine Sony did by design.
    1 point
  27. Hangs4Fun

    Sony A7S III

    yeah, I for one will be publishing a ton of test footage when my A7SIII comes in. I'm hoping Atomos gets their firmware released in time. But even if it doesn't the new All Intra should be decent to look at. The real test will be when there is a 16bit recorder that we can see footage from, since that will be the full potential of this camera. my guess is that the footage has some overexposure in it. S-Log3 can be tricky in mirrorless to expose properly, there is none of the cool tools you have in the pro Sony cameras. If they didn't find 32% gray properly and bump up 2 stops from there, then the results we see are what I would expect. Since most people (rightfully so) shied away from using S-Log3 in 8bit mirrorless camera's they are rusty on how to properly expose it. I will bet you lunch that they got zero at middle gray and then added 2 stops from there (instead of starting at 32%). Phillip Bloom has some downloadable footage from his time with the A7SIII on his Vimeo channel. Haven't had time to see what he put there. He did have the Atomos RAW option (though pre-release).
    1 point
  28. Llaasseerr

    Sony A7S III

    Yeah but the amount of DR doesn't shift much at all with Alexas when you for example use an ACES IDT rated for a different ISO. As I mentioned, when linearised 0.87106 works out about half a stop more than the a7s. It's okay, but it seems less than the sensor is capable of. I just checked Gerald Undone's DR test again, and it's clipping at around the same point - around 0.87106. It looks like it's at about 880/1023 on his chart. So that would appear to be the max value.
    1 point
  29. Hangs4Fun

    Sony A7S III

    16bit RAW to SSD $/GB costs vs 10bit All-I internal to CFexpress Type A I'm really looking forward to using the RAW output. I know they are outputting in 16bit RAW over HDMI, and my Ninja V will get a firmware update that will allow me to capture that output as 12bit ProRes RAW HQ upto 4K/60p. Though I am sure there will be a recorder coming out soon that will record the full 16bit RAW (maybe Ninja V2) Just getting the proper SSD's for the Ninja V to handle this new RAW is costing more money, though I can't complain. Besides not being able to capture internal RAW, the other main reason I am not considering getting CFexpress Type A cards is the $$ per GB costs with that compared to external SSD costs. The difference is significant, over 13 times more expensive. There is only 2 options that require the CFexpress Type A cards, with many options being supported by V60 and most of the ones I will be shooting in requiring V90. Beyond V90, I will just use external RAW. If you compare CFexpress Type A $/GB vs Atomos Supported SSD's rated to handle 12bit RAW ProRes HQ $/GB you get: $2.50 per GB for CFexpress Type A $0.19 to $0.25 per GB for Atomos approved SSD for RAW on Ninja V I just used the Ninja V https://www.atomos.com/drives supported media page, and looked up the cost of 2TB and 480GB OWC Mercury Extreme Pro 6G drives and divided the latest prices by the gigs and compared that to the Sony TOUGH card prices ($399 for 160GB). I'm probably going to have to wait 2 years or more for the CFexpress Type A prices to go waaaaay down before I would ever consider using them. Plus you can't even do RAW to them, so my plan is to use V90 Sony G cards for main shots, Sony M V60 for longer run stuff, and special stuff RAW out to SSD. Unless someone pays me extra to do all RAW. But $0.19 versus $2.50 makes CFexpress Type A 13.16 times more expensive per GB (I've had my Ninja V since the end of 2018, so I'm not counting that cost).
    1 point
  30. Llaasseerr

    Sony A7S III

    Absolutely no way it would get anywhere near 38.42, that's Alexa territory. But I was expecting more than 12 considering the DR test that Gerald Undone did. You make a good point that maybe this footage was shot slightly overexposed and got exposure adjusted down, or maybe he did something else wrong in post. So it's really too early to say.
    1 point
  31. Great job on this BTM_Pix. This time of flight sensor with distance readout could come in very handy for focus pullers . Any chance the TOF sensor could be seperate to the display? Ideally I would mount the TOF sensor above the lens and have the display on the side of the camera for the Focus Puller to see. Like a CineTape setup. Or alternatively, you could have it in an all in one box like you have done but have the display on the side? Also eagerly awaiting the option to use it on manual cine lenses via the motor based option you previously mentioned. If these two features were implemented, you'd have my money. Keep up the amazing work!
    1 point
  32. Very impressive. I assume the ToF sensor measure the distance straight ahead? Is it feasible to adjust the focus point position? I guess turning the unit would not give accurate results with a flat focus plane. Excuse my ignorance if I don't understand how it works.
    1 point
  33. As I've replied on YouTube – all modes "overheat"! It's just that the message about it is displayed only when switching to 8K / 4K HQ / slow motion. Meaning: you can be sitting in the menus, or taking a couple of stills for an hour. As soon as you switch to video – camera will let you know it was "overheating" all this time and can no longer film. Even power off. It puzzles me why won't Canon do a hybrid camera for all of us to eventually spend millions on RF glass?
    1 point
  34. You know what I think lies behind this 'weirdness', which is widespread amongst retailers, prospective / actual customers, YT'ers etc. People wanted to believe it was all possible. They really really wanted what Canon appeared to be offering. The desire was on another level to previous new camera launches. This was Canon after all. The problem is it's turned typically more rational individuals into accepting a situation they really shouldn't. Making all manner of excuses for Canon, accepting all the ridiculous 'workarounds' etc. Basically turning them into fanboy lite.
    1 point
  35. Very weird... Speaking on the external recording, He actually says 'we don't know if it has potential to damage your camera, and please do keep that in mind' I guess if Canon doesn't speak to it, the shops have to say something to their customers.
    1 point
  36. Thinking about it, I'd go as far as to say that he's talking in such cautionary terms about the video features as though he were describing them as being some sort of "use at your own risk" modification like Magic Lantern rather than an actual finished, manufactured, retail product from a world leading brand. It is utterly, utterly weird.
    1 point
  37. Hangs4Fun

    Sony A7S III

    So I asked Sony PRO Support about this and here is the official Sony response: "The CIZ works in 4k and 1080, AF works in both modes but is wide area only, the touch tracking is disabled while in CIZ" My guess is this could be resolved in a future firmware upgrade. Most likely the Active Tracking functions either need increased processed and/or the way they get data (each frame) to determine where the object being tracked is in the frame, then get focus info and set lens focus position to that distance (the A7SIII can do this 120 times per second btw). With CIZ being a subset of the sensor output, the Active Track may need a new function written to consume this new data feed (each frame of the subset of the sensor output from CIZ). Keep in mind, with video, CIZ can be at multiple levels. So when the algorithms determine what the subject is at 1.1x and then you "zoom" to 1.3x, there is going to have to be some new functions created the determine where the subject is. They could have some easy lookup tables to convert pixel locations based on which zoom level you are at, but none of that is there yet. I have not doubt that the dual BIONZ XR processors would be able to do this, and probably will have less to process to support active subject tracking with a smaller frame, but the pixel readout stream that goes through processing needs to be tweaked to work with current active tracking functions or a new function written. I'm pressing Sony on this, as they could absolutely do this. And many of us will be using CIZ when shooting video as our "zoom lens".
    1 point
  38. Same, I get the technical aspects, I can balance the RGB parade and get rid of casts easily, but the fine tuning is where I constantly question myself and when things are off, just making them right. And I'm looking to gain more knowledge of just making a shot that's technically balanced look better, a lot of that seem to be in the midtones. Chris
    1 point
  39. Thank you for sharing and the quality of that video is incredible. I feel very confident in swapping the mount. I used to do tiny work with screws, electrical, etc. I may just start with my 24 & 35. I just tried my generic booster for the FD - M43 mount and works as it should. My 35 is the same in the video for the dream set ( go figure ) and I personally like the tiny size of the 24 2.8 over the f2. I am blown away with the IQ of this camera. I hope to use it next week on a project I am just starting. Again thanks guys! -Dave
    1 point
  40. Maybe electronic design was outsourced to China and software to India 🤣
    1 point
  41. TBF, whatever you thought about their specs, they have always delivered a standard of reliability. That has now been shattered.
    1 point
  42. You're better off pointing the fan at yourself to cool down from being pissed at the R5.
    1 point
  43. Very good point, thanks. So we have a range of Internal temp from 33C to 65C, with OVERHEATED! SHUTTING DOWN error at 33C but not at 65C. And do we need to put it in the damn oven before we get a response from Canon?
    1 point
  44. Hangs4Fun

    Sony A7S III

    holy crap, IKR!! NOT gonna happen, over Sony's dead body, lol. Can you imagine their fastest camera, also having strong video adjustability? I will be honest with you though, Straight out of the camera, that A9 shoots beautiful 4K footage. First time I ever felt no need to muck with the settings on the camera. I usually spend a good bit of time coming up with custom Picture Profiles (when I am going to shoot B roll to go with an FS7ii or FX9, I shoot them against a color checker card like the Passport and scope out the levels of the camera I want to "copy its' colors", then take the B Roll cam (a7Riv, a7iii, a6600, etc) and point at the same card in the same lighting and adjust the colors via the picture profiles until I get the lines to match up as close as possible. btw, this process takes a loooooooooooooooong time, and you have to go back and forth in the picture profile settings sometimes. I can see why Andrew charges for those settings. Any way, once I get them nailed down, I can then shoot with the "color science" of the main camera. With the a9, I can't do this obviously, but I still profile it under the same conditions, so I know about how much off it is from the main camera, which makes color correcting a little easier. I am not concerned that the a7Siii doesn't have "S-Cinetone" colors or the "Venice color science", because I will just make my own picture profile, that essential gives me just that. NOT to mention, this will be the very first mirrorless where I felt we could actually use S-Log3. So I'm 100% confident that I will be able to match the colors from the a7Siii with the FX9 or even the Venice (sadly I don't do much with that beautiful beast).
    1 point
  45. The shut down relates to video mode. When you enter video mode, that's when the shutdown occurs. However, it only takes the 1 hour and 60 JPEGs in stills mode for the timer to shut down the camera with an OVERHEATED! message if you attempt to stay in video mode for more than a minute or so. So basically, as a stills camera it is claiming dangerous temps that prevent any usage in 4K HQ / 8K video mode, even if these features haven't been used at all. If this 'overheating' behaviour is to be believed. The fridge and 33C internal temp reported seems to suggest otherwise.
    1 point
  46. Based on that I’d conclude that it comes down to the quality of the eye rather than the quality of the camera.
    1 point
  47. Whatever works! On last weeks music video - I had practical house lamps and wanted to dim and make them flash. I picked up some very cheap smart LED bulbs, and they did the job! (So cheap that “strobe” was called “fade”). 😂 I once had to resort to using a torchlight light reflected against tin foil / foil wrap. Worked ok! If you like the M9 check out the Falcon Eyes F7! That light is insane for the money.
    1 point
  48. If I had a penny for every time... AF was discussed in a Panasonic thread Zombie skin tones in a Sony thread Cripple hammer (& the new kid on the block - overheating) in a Canon thread I'd be able to buy all of them and still be complaining about not having the perfect camera. The Japanese cartel is alive and well
    1 point
  49. I recently picked one up too. Quite impressed with how cinematic it looks. Flare is a bit naff but apart from that... It's like LA7200 on steroids.
    1 point
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