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I bought a 2nd hand Oneplus 8 Pro (Android phone from 2020) to try shooting raw video with the motioncam app - the app is pretty stable overall with that phone. Below is a quick video I shot yesterday with it on the Emirates Air Line cable car in London. Worth watching on a large screen and set the video to 5K. The phone has 3 lenses (ultrawide, wide, 3x tele). They all work fine at 4k up to 60fps (limited record time at that frame rate). This video was shot at a resolution of 4000x3000 (full sensor area) at 24fps using the RAW10 mode (which I guess means 10 bit raw?). The data rate is about 12.5gb per minute of footage. I exported it as cDNG uncompressed raw files, and edited it in Davinci Resolve. The individual DNG photos from the video look very nice with lots of details. It's incredible what these phone sensors are capable of without any processing. The rolling shutter is a bit of an issue - but I was on a cable car which was moving around quite a bit. I stabilised the footage in Resolve but that occasionally introduces some wobble in the image. The shutter speed was high on this as I didn't use an ND filter. I later found out you can record video straight to an external Samsung T5 SSD drive, which makes things much quicker since you can completely bypass the phone's internal memory. I made the music in the video on a Sequential Prophet 12 synthesizer.

Caveat emptor: from a dpreview poster who got to try the camera in-store... "The thing legit locked up on me and required a battery pull five times inside of a half hour with it." "The worse news, and why you don't see any of the reviews that lean positive about the AF actually show video results. It's as bad as ever. Pulsing and hyper actively finding faces in doorways just as bad as the XT4 did. It's like the box you see on the screen is doing something completely different than what's actually recording. At F5.6 like most the positive reviews use, it's pretty confident but holy smokes even at 2.8 with the brick this thing was all over the place."

@SRV1981 Just catching up on this thread and after I had 4 of your posts quoted, I figured I'd just tag you instead. Lots to talk about here, but I think you're just thinking about things wrong. Here's how I suggest you proceed. Cameras do matter. The problem is that most discussions are very polarised either saying they don't matter at all, or they are the only thing that matters. Neither of these perspectives is true, and more importantly, neither is useful. When people talk about WHY cameras matter, they normally discuss the image, but that's actually not the best way of thinking about them either. The best way to think about cameras is that each camera is a combination of dozens of individual features and functions and attributes. Does it have IBIS? How long does the battery last? How good are the internal preamps for audio? Does it have a punch-in feature to focus and is that feature available while recording? How big is it and how much does it weigh? What is the lens mount? How much DR does it have? What codecs does it offer? etc etc. Buying a camera is about getting the best compromise across all the features that matter to you. You might have a camera that recorded a spectacular image, was small and portable, had all the features of a cinema camera, but if the battery life was 15 minutes then it's completely out of the running based on its one fatal flaw. We should be evaluating cameras based on their biggest weakness for how we shoot, not based on their best feature. Skills matter more. The cameras you're talking about are capable of world-class images, including your Canon that you already own. Please don't take this the wrong way, but the problem you're experiencing is that you aren't capable of world-class images and so that's what's letting you down. I'm also not capable of world-class images, far from it in fact, but I'm perhaps down that path a little further than you are. Video is hard and the path to getting great results is difficult. You're not lighting your videos, and you're not designing the sets and locations either. This makes is harder for you than for people who make sets, light them, and then point the camera at them. I also shoot in completely uncontrolled conditions without permission to be where I am (stealth mode as you call it) so size and appearance also matter to me. Unfortunately, not lighting and designing sets makes it harder still to get the kind of images you want to make. Stop spending money on equipment and start spending time to learn. I mean this literally - don't spend another dollar on equipment. Not one. Your current equipment, your Canon and whatever lenses you have (even if it's just the kit lens) is good enough. By far the biggest limitation in what you're doing currently is your lack of skill. So stop spending money and start spending time. This is actually great news for you. IIRC you said that you're a teacher, and I'm assuming you're not getting paid a large hourly rate, so you probably have far more time than you have money to invest. Here's what I suggest - try and replicate other peoples work. Find a video shot on the same camera as you have, find the nicest shot in it, then try to replicate that shot. Alternatively, you could start with a shot from that video that's the most accessible (eg, a shot of someone standing outside during the day) and replicate that. Do it again with another shot. Do it again and again. You're likely to encounter shots where you're not sure how to replicate it and your attempts to do so fail. In these situations you need to experiment. Just think of every step of the process and think "what if I did this differently". Like, when shooting, what if I expose a little darker or lighter, what if I use a larger aperture or smaller one, what if I use one camera profile or another. What if in Resolve I use this control instead of that control. What if I use this LUT instead of that LUT. What if I use a Colour Space Transform instead of a LUT. What if I do it manually using this control instead of that control. Being able to get a good shot is luck. Being able to get good shots reliably requires skill. That skill requires knowing what to do in each situation and why you would do it. This requires you to essentially explore everything it's possible to do and learn what each option does and which ones work in which situations. Unfortunately this isn't something that can be bought, and it can't even really be taught, it just comes with experience. This sounds daunting, but think about it like this. If you'd have started this 6 years ago, you'd have 6 years of experience, when currently, it sounds like you don't really have much at all (apart from looking at videos and buying cameras).

Yeah because humans didn't innovate before patents......

Right now, for 99% of the people in the world Apple already makes a better camera than camera manufacturers do.

Sure, there's a lot of noise as there is in any online space, not least here. But does that mean we should disregard every contribution ever made on a given forum? Well, not if we have even a moderate capacity to separate the signal from the noise.

Yes, the 6:1 compression ratio as originally written is interesting to me too because it already shows that in 2007 RED was looking for a way to differentiate themselves from CineForm RAW in my view. For example they wrote "at least 2K," well if a camera was 1920x1080 that's not technically 2K! So if I'm RED I will patent everything above 2K that is compressed RAW. This was published November 2006, months before RED claimed to have compressed RAW working in the RED One (March 2007): https://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/SI-2K_CineFormTech.html CineForm RAW is listed as 5:1 in the chart on the link. "The SI-2K with embedded SiliconDVR records directly to the CineForm RAW™ digital intermediate codec, a powerful, 10-bit visually lossless codec that natively encodes the RAW bayer data from the single-sensor in the Silicon Imaging cameras, and preserves the RAW data at the codec level until the data is "flattened" for the final output."

@projectwoofer Yes prices for those synths have risen - let's see if they continue to do so in future or go down again! Video Enhance AI can be good, though it does make things look a bit plastic - but you can add grain to make it a bit more natural looking. @PannySVHS Thanks so much for checking the Fuji XT4 video! That's actually my brother's video - I share the channel with him. He has the Fuji and a Canon 30D. I have a Panasonic S1H, Canon EOS M and the Sony point and shoot cameras. I'm not used to writing in forums in general - but good to know it might be better to use the main forum for this kind of stuff! @kye they should add these high frame rate modes on larger sensor cameras, but maybe it's too complex to do for reasons we don't know? Or at least they could make an interchangeable lens version of the ZV-1, keeping the same 1" sensor. It's true though that in the smartphone examples linked above the quality looks better than what you get on the RX100 / ZV-1.

The footage looks damned good to me. Stacked sensor seems like the move. A GFX with a stacked sensor will be great. For filmmaking the XH2s looks like it will be a little monster.

aww thanks, was a very early film! I guess it's too easy for me to just see the flaws in it. Was shot under difficult conditions, I shudder for instance now to think about how I did the sound! haha Had my girlfriend (even less experience than I!) holding the boom pole, while the audio got recorded directly into the FS700 😕 Maybe I need to go even further back... to find something properly horrible, here is my first ever short film I shot! (with a whopping 22 views so far! hahaha) But for this, I didn't have any fancy equipment like the latest Sony cine camera and a full set of Zeiss lenses. (which the other film I shared just before was shot with) Nope, was shot with a Panasonic GH1! And a monopod and sh*tty photography tripod. (no proper videography tripod back then for me) Can't quite remember what lenses I shot it on, but am pretty sure it was a Nikon 50mm f1.8D and a Vivitar 28-70mm f3.5-4.5, both without a speedbooster and just used directly with a pain Nikon F to MFT adapter. (maybe I used my Nikon 18-55mm kit lenses as well, not sure, quite possible. Was the only mildly "wide-ish" option I had for MFT!!) My girlfriend was my "1st AC" (although, that was a beyond lofty title for her role in reality!). Audio was recorded on the director's Zoom H4n.

Yeah it is not such a crazy idea to get a secondhand Nikon D500 for photography and a Blackmagic Pocket for filming with. The total cost would still be less than many of the "top" hybrid mirrorless!

Yes to the OP this is a proper case of chasing your tail - the R6 you already have is capable of creating similar to the examples you have shown - with all respect you just need to learn how to use it properly (I include myself in this). Together with lens choice and grading, use of light and framing are 2 major factors in creating beautiful images - these skills can be learnt but a new camera won't help

That's exactly my point I made earlier, a person could buy what (they think) is "the best" mirrorless such as the a7Smk3/FX3, but within a couple of years the X-T5 / S1Hmk2 / Z90 / etc get release and you're feeling you're "missing out" (you're not!), sucking you into a never ending cycle of "upgrades.

I disagree, there is nothing novel at all to say "hey what gets done to one image, we could to twenty four of them!" Many many many bad patents are given out, and many bad patents are upheld and left standing when they shouldn't be. https://web.archive.org/web/20220306171619/https://falkvinge.net/2011/06/21/ten-myths-about-patents/ And when the RED ONE was released, the same was still true! Most were still shot on film, not the RED ONE.

Everyone has their preferences, but to me Sony IBIS is almost pointless to have. It's one thing if you're just standing still since it'll eliminate most micro jitters but any actual movement looks pretty bad. I do wonder though if that's due to the size of the mount?

I actually like Sony IBIS. It isn't rocky steady like the Panasonic but it looks natural. Makes the footage look like you are holding a heavier camera.

Well it seems the bigger the sensor gets, the shittier the IBIS gets. Panasonic and OM have the best, while Sony has probably the worst (for video). I understand that for some people, for the things they do with their cameras, that doesn't matter, but to someone like myself, its a big advantage.

Yeah, it doesn't state which but with it being from Sigma then I would guess RAW but here is some from it on the regular Fp that is shot in h264.

The patent expires in 6 years or so, IIRC. Or would we? The guy that invented ANS, possibly the most important fundamental novelty in compression in the last 2 or 3 decades, did put it in the public domain. It is now everywhere. In every new codec worth mentioning. And in hardware like the PS5.

The thing that has always amused/bemused me about RED is how they portrayed themselves as the little guy fighting the battles for all the other little guys and how much they managed to sell that idea to their followers. Nothing says little guy fighting for the little guy quite like owning your own fucking island. Talking of defending patents and remote islands where there may or may not be an underground lair, has anyone heard from Jinnitech recently ?

And still no mention of lenses... Haha. Hey, I've been there. I spent a couple years chasing an image. I went from a t2i to an eos-m to an nx500 to a G7 to a BMMCC... Damn, I forget... I know there was a couple Sony cameras in there... some point and shoots... an FZ2500... Eventually, I forked up the dough for an open box 5D Mark III, installed Magic Lantern Raw and never looked back. I've been curious about other cameras, but nothing in my price range has come even close. Right now I'm really curious about the Sigma FP and the S5. The FP for its raw capabilities, its small size and a bump in resolution. The S5 for IBIS run and gun, B&W with 14 stops of DR. I'll probably just go forward with my 5D... I love the IQ, I already own it and KNOW it, and chasing specifics costs too much money for a hobby. All that said... knowing what I know now... don't get the FX3. There's no reason why you can't get comparable images with the R6. I wouldn't even bother shooting Log right now. Practice with it and practice grading but just use Neutral Profile dialed down with the ProLost Flat settings... then make a couple simple adjustments in your NLE of choice... contrast and saturation... maybe add some Tint for style and move on. If you're intent on buying a new camera... then get either an M50 Mark II or a GH5ii. The GH5 is a workhorse camera with plenty of headroom to manipulate the footage. Search Rowe Films on YouTube or Vimeo for examples of what can be accomplished. The point is... it seems like you're chasing a pot of gold. I know, I've been there. I found mine, but when I did, everybody had moved on from it and I questioned my purchase a bunch of times... do I need 4K... should I have IBIS... do I need better AF. It's all nonsense. The fact is this... all cameras under $4500 kinda suck in one way or another. So you either accept their faults based on other strengths (ibis and AF) and learn to bend the image a little or spend some money and get something more expensive... but then you won't have the convenience of the small size of hybrid cameras... and more expensive cameras aren't any easier to operate... they're just going to give you a sturdier footing.

Yes, you can do that. You can also do more sensible things like partial debayer (e.g Blackmagic BRAW). This isn't novelty though. This is a basic example of inevitable evolution.

What if a camera recorded 23 fps and then used optical flow to make the extra single frame? I think that would get around RED’s patent lol

Excellent point. Great way to validate multiple perspectives. I have to continue to work with the R6 before I make a decisions, which is aided by the supply-chain issues (FX3 and X100V are both out of supply everywhere). What draws me to the X100V is the fact that it could easily brought to a bar and not be a pain to use; the FX3, maybe the R5C, have a similar level of ergonomics and form factor that may increase the motivation for me to use in non-professional settings (stealth mode) compared to other Hybrids.

They need to make the next step: They can keep the same small hybrid bodies, but just make the LCD larger. Why is it still only 3 inch, for example. Would be great to have total confidence in focus. The issue of 180 deg. look to motion and fine tuning exposure has to be brought into 2022. No more dicking about with ND filter glass. If they can't add an ND filter due to physical size constraints, patents or cost, then they need to find a way to get the look of 1/50 in bright light without NDs. A lot of good progress with things like codecs, but compressed RAW is obviously still a big thing missing. Stills photographers wouldn't accept only shooting JPEG! So perhaps they need to get more serious about getting round the table with RED and sorting something out for the future? IBIS is a nice-to-have but they can make it work more creatively and make the look more natural. OM-1 is the benchmark in this regard! Also let's see manual focus take the next step. A ring on the lens barrel is hopeless for video. It should be a smooth dial on the camera all under one hand driving the lens elements semi-intelligently with subject snap on.

I had it on my P4K over two years ago. The first two examples are regular in frame face detect AF but the third is what I call "Wide AF" where the detection happens outside of the host camera's field of view. It also does all of the other things on your list and may well come to other people's cameras soon....

Just google "student film arri alexa" then deep dive into finding videos with the least views! ha 🤣 As lots and lots of students have shot truly awful looking short films using their university's borrowed ARRI ALEXA.

I hadn't seen Richard Wong's lemgthy review which is very in depth. It looks like 1080 is good on the GH6. One other interesting finding is that rolling shutter is massively reduced in 4k 120, which might be useful for certain situations, although that frame rate comes with its own limitations, I believe. And face tracking autofocus seems very usable.

Yes that is the situation on YouTube. Sony and Canon are good at marketing. Way more of the “big time” YouTubers talk about, and hype up, Sony or canon gear. It’s to the point where if you are on a different system, like a Nikon Z9 or a Sigma FP L, you almost get a little lost because there just isn’t so much *mostly* helpful content on these cameras. I ran into that problem with my Nikon Z6, have had to figure out a lot of stuff through trial and error. For example there are oodles of “how to grade S-Log 3 S-CINETONE LUT PACK” videos, but can hardly find videos on good exposure practices for Nikon N-Log, for example. I had to play around with that myself. I suppose that makes me more disciplined, but still. Then there is the whole “I will teach you how to be a professional colorist just like me. Easy solution. Sell all your lighting gear and buy my S-LOG PROGRADE MATTI LUT PACK!! USE PROMO CODE squarespace22 TO GET 2.3% off!” And then they don’t even teach FUNDAMENTAL grading principles. It’s like they want to hide the info from the users so they will just buy the lut packs and purchase Sony gear through there Amazon Affiliate Link!! Sorry for the little mini rant…

So I got a R5c for a week to test to decide if to switch one of my R5 to a R5c. After the first two days these are my observations in comparison to the R5, that are hard to get from the youtube reviewer madness. The good: 8K 60 RAW is the same quality as 8K 30. Btw in Resolve on my gaming notebook I can playback on a 4k 60 timeline with no issue with some basic color grading. I was expecting worse 4k 60 is great and better than R5 4k 60 logically S35 6K RAW is also very good 4k 120 it seems also a tad better than the R5 but I need more test here to confirm XAVC is a way better format to edit than h265 so the fact that you can do 4k up to 120 fps 10bit Clog3 in XAVC is great The Cinema menu system is much more logical and better organized. Waveform! False Color and Magnifying all during recording. All the right info on the recoding display, the R5 is a bit of mess while recording video. You can decide what you show where for almost anything LCD vs VF vs HDMI You can really decide what you want to record on the second card in parallel, the R5 is ok but fairly restricted More DR, is it 1.5 stop more than R5 as Gerald claims I cannot judge but is definitely better than the R5 No limits, no overheating Still very small body With long lens with IS I really don’t miss IBIS, I see no difference vs R5 (70-200 and 100-500), non IS lens is a no go compared to the R5 logically. Face Only AF is really good for filming person as it will not focus on the bg and back to the face if it looses the face. R5 does not have this mode. AF at the maximum speed settings is on pair with the R5 it seems but I need more test to confirm Media playback has waveform and vector scope, R5 has nothing 2TB delikin cards are fast enough for 8K RAW LT 60 fps I can work with but it could be better: Switching from Photo to Video is slow but not as terrible as I thought, disabling in both Photo and Video the sensor cleaning make it somewhat usable Maximum shutter speed is 1/2000….. I sometime use the camera in 8K RAW as remote camera for pictures and I need more that 1/2000….R5 is 1/4000 Why is like this I have no idea,? The media playback part is not that great, no magnification on playback (same as R5), UI not great, no slow motion playback speed (R5 has it), need a lot of button press to delete videos, you cannot scroll through videos with the wheel, although on the plus side it plays back one after the other (R5 cannot do this). Would be super useful that you could cut RAW video files in the media playback (R5 cannot do neither) No audio controls for the onboard mic. R5 has it. The body is wider so balancing on a Ronin S with the nd adapter and EF 24-70 2.8 is not ideal as the VF bumps on the motor…. with some weights or having the motor work more is fixable. With EF lens no auto Iris but the R5 can do it. Prerecording does not work in RAW The bad: Battery is really miserable and if you record or not it consumes basically the same, the problem that when the menus are displayed the camera still capture video at the frame rate that you set….. the only way that it seems to stop chewing battery is to call the media playback menu, so this is the only trick that seems to work to save battery instead of turning it off. Using PD power banks solve the issue but the USB-C is bound to break and is on the main board. Using a Dummy battery coupler with a V-Mount battery currently is not a good solution because all the dummy ones regulate at 7.2v not enough for 60fps! The only one that serves 9v is the canon one Canon DR-E6C DC Coupler for EOS R5 C 5664C001 B&H Photo Video (bhphotovideo.com) that is overpriced and a piece of junk as you need another adapter for the D-Tap Anton Bauer P-Tap to Canon 9V Barrel Cable (20") 8075-0271 B&H (bhphotovideo.com). Really a bad solution. It desperately needs a third party dummy battery that regulates at 9v similar to this Kondor Blue D-Tap to Canon LP-E6 Dummy Battery KB-DTAP-CLPE6 B&H (bhphotovideo.com) Or the real better solution a battery grip with 1Dx,R3 battery……. If I keep it my plan is to buy a FXLION Nano One and use the USB PD port until somebody sells a 9v D-Tap dummy battery and then simply switch the cable. AF is way less features rich than the R5: no animal, vehicle, helmet tracking. No various AF sizes only whole, large and small. AF > 60fps is limited to Continuous AF, so no face tracking and no object tracking. This is the second biggest issue other than the battery I could not find a way to store and recall settings like C1, C2, C3 on the R5…… so changing from 8K RAW 24p to 4k 120fps XAVC you need to touch multiple menu items. This should really be added. Onboard WiFi is not working in Video mode. Canon should enable the video feature in photo mode like in the R5 so if you need more rich AF and better battery is there. Second they should optimize the battery management while not recording and add more features to the AF. The HW is capable so why not? Third they should sell a D-Tap 9v dummy battery and a R3 battery grip too. Forth they should remake the media playback part, with zoom, minimum video editing and better usability I love the cinema OS for video but they really need to fix the battery and add AF feature then it would be the best camera. I’m even happy if they just re-enable video on the photo mode. More tests in the next days.

To get back on topic. Here some Fuji Jpeg glory from our friend @Alpicat, which I found when browsing his youtube channel a few days ago.

@Alpicat Just zapped through your Fuji film simulation video for the Fuji XT4. Awesome stuff! I remember your vintage style add with VHS emulated look, which you posted here some time ago. Very kewl! I think it is that special kinda posts, creative output and some BTS info, encouraging discussion, inspiration and exchange of thoughts and support. Stuff like this needs the exposure of the main forum imo.

Just checked on theBay: prices are crazy! 1200-1300€ for the 990 and 300-400€ for the vintage synth expansion. That’s nuts. I paid 500€ shipped plus 100€ for the expansion but I guess that was a long time ago…my D-550 cost me 250€ at the time. Crazy! VEAI is very good, I’m using it to upscale FHD 120 and 150fps footage from the S5 to 4K. My favorite model is Proteus 2, it can make close and mid shots look almost indistinguishable from real 4K.

How much time do you spend 'walking and talking' while holding the camera up with one arm? If it's, well, any time at all then I'd rule out the C70.. it's enormous! and is heavy......

Yes, I would / do sacrifice AF first. The major drawback for me though is that my manual focusing skills are still suspect and the weight of the S1 means that my footage is shakey if only one hand is concentrating on supporting the camera and the other is pulling focus. I'm not sure if the answer is shooting more on the weebill S and using the wheel on the weebill S to pull focus or not. True, I think that most of the work i do (and hope to do) falls under videographer. Or... they get a real sharp lens for shooting commercials, and then fill the room with haze ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It really depends on what style you're shooting. If you're shooting for a more cinematic image then you can manually focus vintage or third-party lenses and the diffusion characteristics will offset the overly-sharpened codecs. Considering there is no perfect camera, the first thing I'd sacrifice is AF because the alternative is lenses that have reliable focusing (ie, me), are cheaper, and create a nicer image. I understand this isn't the case for videographers, as that's another whole thing with different goals, methods, economics, target audience and aesthetic. So many people are out there saying they're trying to get more cinematic images, and then they turn around and want lenses to be as sharp as possible wide-open and want AF, which almost completely contradicts the previous statement, as almost every theatre-bound production I've read about deliberately uses softer-rending vintage lenses despite having the budget for basically whatever lenses they'd care to use.