Andrew Reid

Who cares what Jake Paul uses? Let's focus on the RAW video app Motion Cam for Android in this topic please. Thanks.

It's a completely different argument. Me merely wanting it to be different doesn't make things different! I want things to be freed up but at same time you have to point why things are as they are. If the RED patent was too broad when it was granted 15 years ago, it would not have been given. If the prior inventions at the time did internal compressed RAW at 2K or higher then it would not have been given. If the invention at the time wasn't novel then again it would have been too obvious to patent, but it wasn't. I am no great RED defender. I think the way they treated Bruce over Jinnimags was absolutely wrong and anti-competitive. But in this topic we have people arguing that apples are oranges. - Having a Dalsa camera being first to record 4K RAW is irrelevant, because it is uncompressed RAW to an external recorder. The RED patent didn't patent that. That's why you can still do it today via an HDMI cable. - Having prior patents from Nikon over RAW on a stills camera doesn't make it an obvious evolution to a movie camera, and they are different concepts. It was like pulling teeth and got me nowhere, but as I said to Iron Film there is a difference between 9fps burst modes and 24fps continuous recording on the market and in patent terms. One is a stills camera, one is a movie camera. Patents are very specific. They don't cover such a broad basis for a product. The difference between 23fps and 24fps is also a valid one. One is a worldwide movie standard. One isn't. If anyone has any actual facts that will invalidate it then let me know. I mean come on guys we can do better than this. I am all ears. Otherwise we'll get nowhere. I would be really interested in hearing from someone with actual knowledge. All this conjecture from the arm chair is a waste of everybody's time on this forum.

So? It isn't relevant to the patent though. You go off and argue with the judge about it if you like. "Objection!" "It is a relevant prior invention because.... It was mentioned on a forum in the same thread!" *Sigh* Have you even noticed that external recorders are allowed to do compressed RAW without violating the RED patent? The patent only covers internal compressed RAW recording where the hardware is all integrated in-camera. Having an off-board recorder makes the system outside the scope of the RED patent. We're not talking about 4K uncompressed externally recorded RAW. The RED patent is not about 4K uncompressed externally recorded RAW. Have you actually RED the RED patent? I suggest you give it a RED!

Starting to get into real head banging on wall territory for me here dude. 24fps is the cinema standard. Lower numbers are not. It matters. It isn't considered motion by the standards of the film industry if it is lower than 24fps. Otherwise we would still be shooting in 20fps on the original Canon Rebel 500D. So if you are going to apply for a patent for motion, you determine 24fps minimum. If you apply for a patent for stills, you are talking single frames or bursts and not continuous motion for hours. A patent that applies to a single frame or 9fps, or whatever, has different claim to one targeting motion picture cameras. RED patented the codec as part of a video camera patent. That's why it applies to video cameras. You're saying it shouldn't exist because other cameras before it did compressed RAW for stills. This is nonsense. Stills are stills. It isn't continuous motion for 2 hours. Even if the burst rate is above 24fps, it is still a complete different concept to a movie camera.

Yes and it's 100% not relevant to the RED Patent on compressed RAW. The Dalsa used an off board recorder for RAW. Equivalent to using an external HDMI recorder today. The RAW was also completely uncompressed. Says right there on your Wiki link: "The camera outputs raw data to an off board storage unit at a rate of approximately 400 megabytes per second"

I don't think they did. What would be nice on mirrorless cameras is something like this for £300 instead of 2 grand. https://cvp.com/product/kippertie-str-nd-strata-pl-nd-mount?gclid=CjwKCAjwy_aUBhACEiwA2IHHQDU-KnAcNoXGjiCHNjT1x0A7rRa6a2GwXIA80LVdDw0Gt-z4I1ciYBoCa7YQAvD_BwE It even has a clear setting.

The paid version of the app is now out for £12.99 on PlayStore. It is really worth it. Here is the result. So good it gives Blackmagic pause for thought. Download original Cinema DNG frame on me: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hi-MaSjA8tC_5zOmp1yXk09xV6XZg-_s/view?usp=sharing Stuff I like: Can select all manner of quirky frame rates and see if they work. 120p was an option on my Mi 11 Ultra! 24p was officially supported but 25p was in the list of quirky unsupported frame rates. Hopefully it will work along with 50p and 60p as well. Total sensor output is 4080 x 3072 As you can see this is open gate 4:3! The app controls to crop width and height are really handy. Reduces file size too. Above frame was with 44% vertical crop to give me close to 2.35:1 cinemascope style, and results in 7MB/frame. There is option for compressed RAW and multi-frame noise reduction plus in-camera playback and clip management. The RAW containers can be converted in-app to Cinema DNG format or even MP4! Noise grain and detail absolutely tip top.

They described a cinema camera shooting 24fps or more at 2K or more. You are suggesting they write the patent in an unclear way, and that just isn't how it's done. If they had not defined a SPECIFIC minimum frame rate and resolution, the claims of the patent would be legally unclear. I don't see how this is hard to comprehend even for a non-lawyer.

You don't get it do you. Patents have to be specific and you have to draw a line at specific numbers and features.

Yes massive difference between 24fps and 23fps. In a patent you have to draw the line and define what standards it applies to. RED is saying that 23fps would be a burst mode for stills cameras but 24fps is a cinema standard. Do you really expect a patent lawyer to not bother with details like that?! "Ah 23, 24 all the same to me!"

I did indeed. The stills/cine separation thing was a bit of a damp squib though. It only allows you to separate exposure controls, not more exotic things like crop factor. Thankfully the crop feature can be assigned to left and right on the d-pad so it is very quick to set. That RED motion mount I showed you, I wonder how possible it would be to adapt it to L-mount, with a little control box for the ND? Probably not easy but probably not impossible either 🙂

The filter stack includes an IR cut which has a huge impact on colour balance. Some sensors let in more infrared light than others. Big effect on skin tones. So it is not just the colour filter array, but other attributes of the sensor design that have an impact on colour in RAW files. Dynamic range and noise do not leave colour balance or tonality alone, it all shifts. What about colour in highlights close to the clipping point? That differs greatly between chips, with different pixel size and dynamic range. And same thing deep in the shadows. Also saturation and contrast go hand in hand. It's hard to take one aspect like colour alone, isolated from other facts. From my own eyes I know for a fact that sensors have a different look to colour in RAW and grade differently, not all RAW files have the same tonality or colour depth. Tough to even match a CCD to CMOS let alone an Alexa and a RAW file from an A7S II.

Really weird. I had to restart the camera and put an L-mount lens on it before it started working. Now it is actually selecting 1/50 rather than 1/60, with the Sigma lens as well as with a manual focus Leica M adapter aka Billy No Lens.

1/40 I can get as well. Did you try 1/50?

Here is that well know low light test - Hanging basket in the dark, pioneered by Steve Yedbasket. I encourage you to open that one up and have a look at the grain, as it is quite nice for ISO 6400 from a 9.5K sensor in the dark with no crop. As long as you don't try pushing it in post by 3 stops that is! There is another very good test of RAW video and that is the famous bunny test sequence invented by Roger Sadknockers. I think you can all agree these shots are giving Mr Undone a real run for his money.

Yeah sensors have their own look in the RAW data. The filter stack has an effect. The CFA and pixel design makes a difference to colour as do better know traits like signal to noise ratio and dynamic range. I shot Digital Bolex and 5D Mark III at same time once, same uncompressed RAW output in 1080p at same frame rate. They looked totally different in terms of colour! And you do have to process RAW eventually, and not all cameras will handle similarly in post. 5D Mark III 3.5K RAW is a real step up from the 1080p and I encourage everyone to give it a go. It's amazing.

Nah on the Fp-L there is a specific minimum shutter speed in the Auto ISO menu you can select. So I selected 1/50 and it insists on 1/60, probably for NTSC countries. We could could with a PAL mode for stills!

He looks perfectly sane to me.

You said between 24fps and 9fps. 24p is cinema, and 9fps is a stills burst mode so yes there is a big difference.

That's the problem with LOG. It always has a look baked in and it takes serious effort to get the best out of it and tailoring to a particularly scene. Whereas with RAW it is so much easier to get it looking cinematic. Magic Lantern RAW on the 5D Mark III in 3.5K still ranks above 95% of the camera market in terms of just image quality. Will do a test later in low light and see if the Fp-L holds up at high ISOs because it is a 9.5K sensor. The most data at 24fps it can do is 7K crop at 30ms rolling shutter, but the pixel binned 4K from full frame 9.5K has held up really well so far, it doesn't really have any moire or aliasing and dynamic range is fully intact.

Native LOG gamut, I can get it looking a lot better but wanted to a quick and dirty look at the files with minimum of corrections. The DNG RAW just comes out lovely with no effort. Also I feel it has that "digs deep in the shadows" look that cinema cameras have whereas F-LOG and OM-LOG look like animated GIFs in the shadows, and too much in way of crushed blacks.

They did 2.5K before that on the Cinema Camera. It was when they introduced 3:1 compression in Cinema DNG that RED sued. Nothing to stop them doing 2K Cinema DNG uncompressed. It is quite a nice format and file sizes not too bad at that res. Sigma Fp does cinema DNG today. Blackmagic's response was to rip it out entirely, because they had the ulterior motive to sell us BRAW. Where are all the 5:1 compressed RAW codecs then if the patent doesn't apply to those? Yes It's not RAW though. It is debayered with white balance baked in. I don't think one or two cameras count as numerous? Not even Sony F35 had RAW and that was a huge oversight by Japan. I don't think it has hurt Blackmagic. It spurred them into doing their own RAW codec for a start. Plus Blackmagic cameras sell just fine and Resolve is really flying. Blackmagic make a lot of their money from broadcast as well, where RAW recording isn't really sought after. Neither of them ever had to worry about RED! Digital Bolex was always against any compression of any kind. They weren't even interested in doing 4K. AJA Cion was a lovely idea but ultimately didn't sell. Not because of the lack of REDCODE but because of other reasons. My camera company doesn't exist and I squarely blame a rich sunglasses salesman for that.

They did didn't they? They patented the whole thing. The entire video camera system with RAW recording.

Let's shoot some quick a dirty dynamic range tests Here's mine, on the balcony First is Sigma Fp-L in 8bit Cinema DNG RAW Second is OM System OM-1 in 10bit LOG 4K: A clear win for the Sigma Fp-L You will need a bigger effort to get the best out of the OM-LOG The Fp-L RAW seems to have that creamy RED EPIC / ALEXA look to me straight out of the can And it doesn't sacrifice a boat load of colour to achieve such a wide DR. This was in full frame mode to SD card. I am sure the external 10bit and 12bit is even better in the highlights.

It could be used at 1/50 with NDs for stills. That makes it pretty bullet proof as far as banding goes in 50hz PAL countries. They haven't got a flicker reduction mode in the menus though. It is a bit of an oversight. Camera always seems to select 1/60 indoors for me, even though I set the minimum Auto ISO shutter speed at 1/50!