Caleb Genheimer

This all highlights something else that I feel plagues Panasonic: too many modes. I don’t know how they pare that down, people would surely complain? They should possibly consider ditching an entire codec just to start. Having internal ProRes basically tops everything, do they really need h.264, h.265, long-GOP, Intra… the endless scrolling list of slight permutations is also a HORRENDOUS way to lay it out.

Agreed. One look at cameras like the C70 gives you all the info you need to assess why “stills” shaped bodies are an awkward form factor for video once there are extensive video features involved.

The thing I don’t get… and mind you, I work as a 1st AC… even if you’re mostly technically minded, and interested primarily in the technical aspects of cameras, there is still a LOT more to that that Gerald doesn’t get into. Especially with these hybrid cameras, what about rigging? Where are the cage reviews? Favorite top handles? Power distribution? Cable management? Back to the S1RII, honestly my main gripe with LUMIX is their slowness to create cameras that are *physically* geared towards filmmaking. I worked pretty hard on my S1H rig, I don’t think it could get better, and it’s still awkward. I’d rather have a Pyxis. But it’s a tool like anything else, and right now, the S1H is a good tool versus the cost of jumping to something else. I don’t want to rig a new hybrid mirrorless again.

I pre-ordered the 42mm at $5K, and the 95mm at $6K. Expensive, but probably the best money I’ve spent on gear. There really is no shortcut to good glass. Most likely the Eterna will be out of my reach though. I’m honestly hoping we see a Pyxis Pro from BMD with that RGBW sensor.

I don’t think CMOS has plateaued for the Comon Man quite yet. I do get the criticisms of over/under tests on the face of it, but the reality is? They’re Tests. I do find value in seeing what a particular camera is doing “down there” (or up in the highlights.) The fact is, as a test, over/under kinda beats out even a Xyla chart, because you can see HOW things blow out, or how they roll into black. Most of the time, I agree, modern CMOS has the chops to hit the stops on paper. But when you look at color performance and how the image rolls off, it immediately enters “not so pretty, is it?” territory. There IS a reason Arri still almost universally enters the conversation. If you look at an Arri over/under? It holds on for more stops, and also doesn’t dive drastically towards strange colors. 100%, exposing a modern CMOS correctly will yield excellent performance, but in reality? Most sensors are gonna let you down if you get it wrong. They’re pretty unforgiving. I could go on about Arri’s color separation, but that’s a whole other thing.

They confirmed open gate in the CineD interview, it’s based on the binned 4K mode, so roughly 4.5K? Readout would land around 20ms and DR will take a hit, but if they’ve got that mode? I’ll desqueeze that sucker myself. Pretty sure Atlas Mercury sneak by on the GFX sensor.

Yes, about a 1 stop DR hit to lower RS to 15ms in 4K 16:9. The open gate which they indicated is based off of that same sensor mode will therefore clock in at 20-21ms readout based on the added lines. Not bad all things considered.

Yep, it’s a niche within a niche hah. Medium format digital is already a small crowd, then when you siphon off the video folks? Smaller crowd. I think the reality is, video users are gonna have to work with whatever sensors will sell well to the photo crowd (at least when it comes to medium format.) Im definitely looking forward to Eterna being on final firmware and in some folks’ hands to see what it can do though. I also hope they see the 100s II as a B-Cam option and align it as closely as they can via firmware.

I hope Eterna does well but it’s a tough crowd. The Open Gate will help though, that’s a truly unique sensor size for a motion picture camera. If it does well we’d almost certainly see a version with the XH2S sensor, which would be an equally wonderful camera. I do have an extremely high regard for Fuji’s physical/ergonomic design. They do excellent work where others get cluttered or awkward.

Yeah that really is! I would expect the additional vertical lines to add a small amount but still expect it to be well within a workable range. Fuji has been leaving open gate video on the table then with the GFX. Since it is the same processor and sensor, I hope they add the mode to the hybrid body also, as those will be more affordable used at some point than Eterna likely ever will be.

And the main lenses I use are Atlas Mercury, so… pretty open field on cameras I could use. I’m not locked into L-Mount.

Yep my main challenge is, I’m not shopping between the two, I already have an S1H. It’s gonna take a bit extra to tempt me away, especially at $3K+

Anything over $3K has me scrolling through Arri Alexa eBay listings anyway if I’m honest lol. Even a decent number of the fuller featured “classic” type Alexa’s are coming in around $4K, and often have cards/case/batteries. But that assumes you want a cinema camera, not a hybrid that punches above its weight.

Not to resurrect an old thread, but since there are folks here who actually have the camera… How is the readout speed in the binned 4K mode? Apparently on the upcoming Eterna, they’ve confirmed it will have open gate video, based on the binned sensor mode. @eatstoomuchjam

Yeah I had the GH5 briefly and swapped it back for a GH5S pre-order. They really were great. But the S1H is still their best camera. The full V-slog and excellent OLPF really still haven’t been surpassed at its price. Maybe equaled by the Pyxis, but I haven’t tried one yet. Really the two things I don’t love on my S1H are readout speed (a bit slow for using my Mercury especially,) and the HDMI output lag (which eliminates the possibility of giving a 1st AC a fair shake.) Speaking of, did anyone test the S1RII’s output lag? That’s plagued every S-series body somewhat since the beginning.

Of course. I do think @Andrew Reid is spot on in pointing out that the S1RII’s physical design is uninspired. Even if all else remains equal, LUMIX desperately needs to find their video-centric camera body format. Sony’s FX line is walking off with that segment, even without including open gate. I do believe that there’s a sizable market still hanging out sub-$5K, and BMD could quickly walk away with a large slice of the pie. What they don’t cover, the FX line covers very nicely. The Sonys are feature-rich and maximalist in terms of including hybrid type features on top of the video-first format. BMD sits in an interesting place where they keep things simple/straightforward in a way that is heavily focused on streamlining cinema work. They're still building up trust on reliability and build quality, but there’s traction on that front… and at some point, the price point with what they offer is just too good to ignore. the 12K is $7K, and the Pyxis? Almost 1/3rd that price. I find it hard to believe they’re not aiming to land something in the middle, just a touch over $4K. You’re on a good track with the S35 cut-down of the 12ak sensor. I also wonder about simply binning the existing sensor, to keep the data rates within reason for basic cards, and the processing needs within the means of a lesser pipeline, and the cooling requirements down. Presumably BMD could also do RGBW with a larger photosite arrangement, to bring the resolution down. It’s pretty obvious that the 12K is “look what we can do,” and it’s gonna trickle down over time. Again, I hope it spurs LUMIX and others to push for better CMOS tech, because they’re all capable of building good cameras. I do really like what LUMIX has put out on a number of occasions. The S1H was the only camera to put a proper OLPF on the IMX410 until Pyxis just recently. The GH5S with dual native ISO and V-Log L in such a small form factor was a true joy to work with. And the GH2 had a really lovely look back in the day. The S1RII is sitting in a very strange zone. High resolution. High readout speed. The big standard color and dynamics that come with decent Sony CMOS these days. It’s not a bad camera. It’s just not remarkable either. I guess I’m just glad the last couple years I’ve pivoted to buying glass, because I don’t feel like I’ve missed out on any cameras in that timeframe.

The real challenge is that until very recently, proper full frame sensor tech has been extremely stagnated. Even Canon, who make their own sensors, went bigger and ditched their lauded DGO in the process. Sony, who makes most everyone else’s sensors, hasn’t done much since shifting to BSI. Panasonic had Dual Native ISO, now it’s been an option for everyone to leverage lately. But ultimately, if you want a 24X36mm video sensor, it’s gonna top out at ~13 stops of DR (maybe half a stop more than that thanks to some highlight recovery and/or noise reduction.) The market has tightened up, sure, but the core technology has also provided very low motivation for existing users to upgrade. Most of the changes have been in tertiary areas like autofocus and ergonomics. Those are important in some contexts, sure, but they’re not paradigm shift improvements. That’s what is needed for market share to shift in a company’s favor. I have a small amount of hope for LUMIX from two things: the shuttering of Varicam, which moved their team into the LUMIX department, and the recent (even if half-baked,) collaboration with Arri. Both bring an insight into a camera ethos that differs from what LUMIX have been releasing up to this point. Arri has also been feeling market shrink, which could mean a window of opportunity for LUMIX to deepen that relationship and do something interesting in concert with Arri. But the window is probably only 2-3 years at the very most, thanks to the elephant in the room: BMD’s 12K RGBW sensor has just demonstrated a paradigm shift. If you already have some cine batteries and the right memory cards, you can have that thing shipped, powered, and recording blindingly impressive footage for only $7K. That may seem expensive, but not when it is very nearly on par with an Alexa LF. And the real kicker-time-ticker? It ain’t gonna get MORE expensive, I can tell you that for certain. BMD surely has a roadmap already in place to reach economy of scale with that tech, and we’ll likely see it in Pyxis/Pocket price point cameras in under 5 years. Everybody else better hope Sony’s sensor development team has been saving something in their back pocket, because now’s the time, or everyone’s going to get outplayed in the not so distant future.

Yeah. I have a feeling the next gen of BMD stuff will begin making the “big dogs” like Arri and Red more than a little concerned. Even simple iterations on the Pyxis and the new RGBW LF Ursa will be devastating. I’m primarily eyeing the impact on classic-type Alexa pricing though! If I can snag one with open gate for around $4k I’ll be a happy camper. The bottom has to drop out eventually!

The primary question in my mind is this: with extra attention to cooling, can they in any way get full sensor read-out at 24p? Rolling shutter will be what it will be, but if they can at least pull that off, it will have a sensor size leg-up on basically every digital cinema camera. If it’s still tapped out at the stills body’s readout options, it’s a bit underwhelming… unless the price is a surprise somewhere decently south of $10K. Either way, I have high hopes for a Fuji 44X33mm video mode in the next 2-3 years. I talked to a rep and was told “not this cycle” (aka the MKII,) but that they’re working on it. They know people want it. Peak cine camera for Fuji would undoubtedly be a 44X33mm full readout X-Trans sensor, but a lot of things would have to go correctly (first and foremost this Eterna) for that to ever happen. I’m just glad they’re in the cine game. We need more players, and I like their ethos. Arri-esque in some ways, with their film stock background always influencing their image flavor. The same cannot be said for Red, BMD, Canon, Sony, or Panasonic.

I feel like anyone using the IMX410 may have had to sign up for a minimum purchase quota, and now everyone is finding ways to use them up… worst off being Panasonic. They use them in a LOT of bodies, but then, BMD uses it in several also, and I can’t help but feel the choice of IMX410 for Pyxis was more than just a spec decision. It’s like someone needs the IMX410 to *move.* Perhaps Sony themselves just have too many and are selling them at great discount now… or something. IDK. It feels like this is the “last breath” of the IMX410 across the entire market, and there won’t be any new cameras using that sensor. We’ll see in the next ~12 months of inevitable announcements wether or not I’m right or not. I am curious to see detailed comparisons between the S1H and Pyxis implementations, as I like the Pyxis ergonomically, but I think it is very hard to beat out the S1H’s OLPF, and the better noise performance thanks to the autofocus tech. Im hopeful in two things: the Varicam people folding into LUMIX, and the Arri connection. If the Varicam personnel also get working with Arri people, we have a chance of seeing properly and carefully tuned Arri Log-C on an affordable-ish camera.

I really got the impression at NAB that they are working on the successor to the S1H, and it’s even more video-specific than any of their current hybrids. I don’t know if that means a different shape, but Komodo, FX-line, and Pyxis probably have them thinking in that direction. They were grilling me on what an S1H successor should have. They’re working on it. I’d rather they go slow and really make a great camera. Keep in mind, LUMIX is gaining the Varicam people as that division closes up/merges with LUMIX. At NAB, they said any products from that “merger” will be about two years out. I know it seems like they’re recycling the IMX410, but honestly? EVERYONE is kinda doing that. I don’t think it’s any kind of “sign” that LUMIX is ending.

I think dual sensitivity should be done in the CFA, that’s an argument for high resolution sensors that I can get behind… basically do an array of ND over some of the photosites. It could also be done at the ADC level with a mix of different sensitivities, but really, doing it at the filter array is a wholly non-electric way to get varied sensitivity. Really, I have two potential releases I’m waiting on: this Panasonic “S2H,” and an inevitable Pyxis “pro” with built-in ND. If neither of those fit my needs, I’m just gonna buy an old, used Arri.

Also I’ll buy it sight unseen if they use ANYONE other than Sony Semi for the sensor. The entire industry needs to buck their stranglehold somehow, it kinda kills innovation. I’m really hoping that the RGBW sensors from BMD trickle down to budget models and shake up the market. We need better ADCs and/or dual gain now. Sony has squeezed BSI for all it’s worth. The codecs are ahead of the sensors honestly.

I’m a bit wary of phase detect honestly. They’ve proven with the second round of S-Series bodies that it DOES ding the SNR/DR a bit, so there’s a trade-off. If they do simultaneous dual-gain ADCs or 16-bit ADCs, then it’s probably fine for them to also do phase detect. Otherwise, it’s just gonna put the ubiquitous 12-bit ADC on the back-foot. Plenty of cameras rocking that kinda sensor already, they need to stand out. But then, I don’t own any AF lenses. I want a camera that can keep doing this kinda stuff, just better:

Of note, in no particular order, here’s what I put forth as worthy attributes for a S1H successor: cinema box camera body internal ND faster sensor readout fixed HDMI (and SDI) latency DGO, 16-bit ADCs, or some other dynamic range improvement. NO resolution increase top-shelf OLPF I intentionally mentioned the Alexa Mini and 35 as “make your small/budget version of that ethos.”