FilmMan

[url="http://blog.abelcine.com/2012/11/05/what-exactly-is-canon-raw/"]http://blog.abelcine.com/2012/11/05/what-exactly-is-canon-raw/[/url]

Interesting read.

Andy, here's another Red package on Ebay.
[url="http://www.ebay.com/itm/330824025300?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649"]http://www.ebay.com/itm/330824025300?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649[/url]

Intersting times indeed. I'm tempted with the REDmx especially with the price. Once this old stock (which is still ahead of the curve) is gone, then Scarlet and Epic remain, unless Red puts out another camera. There are a host of other cameras coming on the scene. Will Panasonic put out a contender? Will Sony adjust their pricing to make it too tempting? Will Red adjust pricing again? Will Canon lower pricing? Will JVC put out their interchangeable 4k camera? Digital Bolex is coming. BMC is almost here. Will BMC put out a 4K model or bigger sensor model in April? I'd go for a REDmx over the Kineraw by the way. I'm sitting tight for now but may change my mind. It is a tough decision and many are in the same boat, so you are not alone. If you make a decision, please let us know. Cheers.

If Hero can put out a $400 camera that is 2K then it is safe to assume there will be more cameras with that spec coming in the near future. When is the question?

[size=5][color=#ff0000][b]A RED POST:[/b][/color][/size]
[color=#000000][size=4][b]Eric Von Schulz[/b][/size][/color]
[i][url="http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?88226-Red-Ruined-my-Life"]http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?88226-Red-Ruined-my-Life[/url][/i]

[indent][i]I was going to buy a BlackMagic Cinema camera. But delay after delay kept disappointing me. Then Jim went crazy and reduced the price of everything.

So about 3 seconds after reading the announcement I tried to buy one of the cameras.
But nothing happened. I kept clicking over the red.com and nothing.

Holy Crap. Everyone is buying up these cameras and I am stuck in clicking hell.
Finally after a few minutes I get in.

There it is.. Two versions. Red One CF and Red one with SSD.
Which do I get? A few seconds later. SSD is more expensive option for same price I will get that one.

Done ordered.. Paid for.

Holy double crap I need things for it now..
Massive Ebay and red forum hunt ensues..
Found awesome deals.. Still waiting on confirmation on a monitor. More stress until I here back from him. If you are reading this.. PM me and let’s make our deal.

In the end..

Red One camera 4,000
Nikon Mount
5” LCD monitor
AC adapter
Batteries/ Charger
SSD drive
Red rails
Cables, Arm
Total 1,800

5,800 I now have a camera that would have cost me over 25,000 just hours before and I was not even considering it due to it’s high cost.

I already own the best Nikon Glass on earth plus incredible sound gear.
Just needed a high end 2.5K or 4K cam.

So a sleepless night and unnecessary worrying didn’t totally ruin my life. But I think I am going to wake up tomorrow and this will all had been a dream.

Somebody pinch me.. [/i][/indent]

[quote name='haarec' timestamp='1351880233' post='20889']
Yea, the question is do we still like 8bit-4:2:0-moiré-2K-camera. Isn't it a year too late for GH3...
[/quote]

Yea those will still be around but better spec cameras coming.

When "rougue" camera companies up the ante, then the big guys are forced to change especially when it cuts into sales. Interesting times coming.

[quote name='andy lee' timestamp='1351885402' post='20903']
Canon have responded they put their prices up on 1 November on their whole DSLR range!!
[/quote]

Andy, I wonder if this is the correct tactic for the fight - raising prices. Sure Christmas is coming .... Maybe Canon is waiting for "Boxing Day?" Cheers.

Here's a good reel to say what the REDMX priced at $4000 (not including monitor, batteries, media, etc.) can do.
[url="https://vimeo.com/25482306"]https://vimeo.com/25482306[/url]

The fight has begun. [u][b]RED has responded[/b][/u] to the pre fight talk from Sony [u][b]with their pricing[/b][/u]. Sony is an industry leader and has been around a lot longer than Red. Instead of fighting they perform a Kata and dodge the fight. The bell has rung and round 1 goes to RED.

Round 2? RED will not only being fighting Sony, but other foes. Stay tune Batman fans, the Joker, Penguin and Riddler are plotting.

Anyone wanting to predict how the fight will go? Odds? Is RED's kamura strong enough? The longer the wait for the challengers to step up, the more cameras RED will sell. When RED sells a camera, the competition loses a potential customer. Let the fight continue! It could get [b][color=#ff0000]bloody[/color][/b].

Talking pricing here, not specs.

Canon 1DX sells for around $6500, and the Canon 1DC $13000. Cost to produce is probaby very close. Yet $6500 difference.

Scarlet sells for roughly $8000 and Epic is $20000. Roughly $12000 difference. Cost to produce is probably very close. Yet $12000 price difference.

[i][b]Preserving selling prices as long as you can to maximize profits? [/b][/i]

Something to think about.

Thumbs up for Red to lower prices. Will pricing be coming down further in the near future as more competition enters the picture?

Redmx pricing! Wow! I'll hand it to Red, they are true business people. He did lower the Epic and the Scarlet but he left alot of room to lower further. Awesome pricing with the Redmx. He is taking business away from the competition and/or affecting their margins. Competition WAR baby! You gotta luv it!

Let's not forget what Panasonic may have up its sleeve. 2 versions coming? Time will tell.

[url="http://vimeo.com/40732217"]http://vimeo.com/40732217[/url]

More camera[size=6][b]s[/b][/size] coming... ;)

[indent][b]Agree or Disagree? According to RED:[/b][/indent][indent][b][url="http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?88034-Sony-F5-and-F55"]http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?88034-Sony-F5-and-F55[/url][/b][/indent][indent][i]I am going to give a tip of the hat to Sony tonight. These two camera announcements are significant.

While I do not see them as a threat to EPIC or Scarlet... I do see them as a threat to the conventional and outdated thinking of the industry that tried so hard to cling to "1080P and 2K are good enough".

We began to champion 4K as the respectful replacement for film in the digital motion world back in 2006. We were embraced. We were ignored. We were revolutionary and we were a scam.

Others in the industry incredibly attempted (and successfully in some circles) tried to convince the industry that 1080P and 2K was good enough. On one page of Arri's website they extolled the virtues of a 4K film scan and then on another sold the Alexa as a feature worthy camera that "had more resolution than other so called 4K cameras". (rolls eyes)

Every single camera manufacturer now has a 4K and/or 5K sensor program in the works now. Why? [b]Because 1080P and 2K acquisition was the biggest scam in the history of the film industry.[/b]

Sony has come to the party. God love them. The F65 is a true 4K camera (although not 8K as it is advertised). The F5 and F55 are 4K cameras soon to be released.

There are 4K display panels being released. 4K projectors. The world is finally coming to its senses. We predicted this 6 years ago. Now it is here.

What does this mean?

There is a new standard from Japan (not exactly sure why they get to call the shots) that a new consumer 4K standard has been set. It dictates that you can't up-rez to 4K.

It means that features and TV shows shot on 1080P or 2K are destined to be left out of a second bite of the apple for a 4K delivery opportunity.

It means that we were right after all. Not that we want to gloat. We are just sad we didn't do a better job of clearly explaining our position to more people over the past 6 years.

In the end... Sony has validated what we have believed in all along. 1080P is not a respectful film replacement and 4K (or more) is. Actually we believe in 5K+ bayer to a 4K finish. But I don't want to nit-pick Sony's announcements.

The image needs to get better over time. There was a moment in history when it got worse. It was called 1080P and 2K. Mercifully that time has passed. Thanks to Sony for acknowledging this truth.

Jim[/i][/indent]

[indent][i]There is a conflict in my posts about when we will post the new pricing structure. In one post I said Nov. 1st and in another post I said Oct. 31st.

The correct date is [u][b][color=#ff0000]Nov. 1st and at about 5pm PST.[/color][/b][/u]

Sorry for the confusion.

Jim[/i][/indent]
[b][color=#ff0000]RED PRICING: NOVEMBER 1, 2012 [/color][/b]

[size=4][b]The cost to manufacturer the Scarlet and the Epic is probably identical or very close (see spec *link). [u]Red is making a profit charging $9100 for a Scarlet.[/u] The Epic's price $30K to $40K is as Jannard stated, "now making an obscene amount of profit" from the Epic. [/b][/size]

[size=4][b]*Below is a link to the specs for the Red's. [/b][/size]

[url="http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?70447-Differences-between-Scarlet-Red-One-and-Epic-Tech-Specs-Side-by-Side-Chart"]http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?70447-Differences-between-Scarlet-Red-One-and-Epic-Tech-Specs-Side-by-Side-Chart[/url]

[b][color=#ff0000][i]Jannard says, "We have learned how to make EPICs in quantity, lowered our assembly costs, found better suppliers and paid off our NRE. That means we can continue to charge the same for an EPIC (and now make an obscene amount of profit) or lower the price...We could easily pretend and invent a new model to justify a lower price with higher performance. You are too smart for that. So are we. Instead... we will just lower the price of EPIC."[/i][/color][/b]

[quote name='markm' timestamp='1351679201' post='20696']
Yep I agree. Sony are waiting to see the reaction. Why should the technology cost £15000 anyway. Your basicly paying £10,000 for a 4K sensor if you allow £5000 for the rest of the bells and whistles and I think I'm being over generous. But then canon have done the same with the way overpriced C300

I guess the point is some of us in the indie market might stretch to £15000 if it was a one off future proofed (5-10 years) investment and priced fairly.
This camera is I think really aimed at bottomless pockets and the commercial/corporate market. I don't see it being a threat to an Alexa or those aspiring to make feature films.
After years of Sony and others pushing overpriced cameras then pushing with slight incremental improverments every few years we now have new players and things will only get worse for them as China begins to make its mark.
Sony could have come out with a common sense camera IE decent sensor 10 bit 4.2.2 out and raw recording with ND filters at about £5000 So could panasonic who would have found it easy to update the af100 sensor.
I would say Sony Canon and Panasonic are going to lose big time in their profit margins. Companies like Black Magic are going to become the new players Maybe Red too if they can get their prices down.

In order to help the big players get their acts together then they should follow my advice on this is how the large sensor market should look for todays consumers.
£1000 - 3000
Cameras for consumers IE 4K 2K etc heavily encoded with 8 bit uncompressed out.

£3500 - 80000
2K Cameras with decent sensors 50 - 100mb recording with 10 bit 4.2.2 and raw out.

£10,000 - 15000
4K - 2K Cameras with on board recording for all including raw

£20,000 - £50,000
Cutting edge sensors and technology for theatrical use. IE 8K Global aperture 15 stops and 16bit 4.4.4.

Now go away and get your houses in order.
[/quote]

Yep.

Electronics have improved. Computing power has increased immensely and prices have come down. This is reality. People seem to be on the mindset, they have to pay a huge premium because big companies say so. Sure cameras cost money. But how much do the internals actual cost? Of course companies are going to paint the picture of huge development costs. However in Sony's case they had the technology for many, many years! With today's technology, 422, 10 bit, 80 to 100 mbp/s at 2K should be offered for the low end cameras. Hero 3, a $400 camera is giving almost 4K, and is giving 2K - so you'd think for $3500 this could be given on a video camera or DSLR? BMC is changing things. And Digital Bolex seems to be coming on too. Cheers.

Germy1979, good one "price chess."

It could turn out as price dominoes?

Sony could take the charge and do something as BlackMagic has. It is appearing their ulterior agenda is becoming clear? I hope I'm wrong but this is starting to remind me of an episode of the defunct series "Lost" ...

It seems company doesn't want to leave any money on the table? I'm starting to become more sold on the BMC...maybe Red will surprise?

We still don't know the official Sony pricing so I may be eating crow here. Cheers.

Digital is quietly making progress.

[url="http://www.digitalbolex.com/october-camera-update/"]http://www.digitalbolex.com/october-camera-update/[/url]

[url="http://www.digitalbolex.com/weekly-ustream-check-in/"]http://www.digitalbolex.com/weekly-ustream-check-in/[/url]

I'm taking a different road now till proven differently.
Logic. Sony gives 4K with the FS700 but you need a specific recorder, which costs more money. The FS700's 1080p footage isn't as good as the F3. Therefore protecting the F3 market.
Big f'n announcement. People are pumped. Sure the specs look great and the sheep get excited. Talk of very positive pricing. Yet no official pricing from this leading company on the debut day!!! Sony could give a very attractive price but remember they are in the business to make money. Don't fool yourselves folks. Till we see the actual pricing, I'm staying negative neutral - if that positively makes sense? Why no official pricing??? Perhaps they are gathering their intel and deciding how much they can squeeze out of the lemons?
Cheers.

Too bad Andrew didn't have the interview after this Sony F5/F55 announcement. I wonder what type of questions could have been asked to Canon now? Cheers.

[color=#FF0000][b]Scarlet brains is $9700.00 currently.[/b][/color]

[b]The Scarlet is virtually the same as an Epic in cost??? [/b]

[b]Jim states their NRE is paid for the Epic.[/b]
[b] [/b]
[b]They are profiting with a $9700 price on the Scarlet.[/b]

[b]Hmmm...[/b]

[url="http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87903-Contemplation/page2"]http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87903-Contemplation/page2[/url]
Jim Talk

[i]Not really. We have paid off the NRE, have figured out how to make EPICs for less. Everything we do is for our customers. [size=5][color=#FF0000][b] I guess I would bet on us to do the very best we can to put cameras in the hands of as many as possible[/b][/color].[/size]

Not much more complicated than that.

Jim[/i]

[size=5][b]The MMA match is about to begin???[/b][/size]

[url="http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87903-Contemplation"]http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87903-Contemplation[/url]

Just contemplating...

If you are looking at value in a camera... look to yourself.

Everything will get better and cheaper as time rolls on. It is up to you to make the most of this... especially when it comes to cameras.

Cameras are investments... an investment in you. Cameras alone do not hold any special value unless you plan on holding them new in a box for 50 years.

Whatever you buy... cameras, computers or almost anything electronic will dramatically improve and get cheaper over time. That is a given. Mark this down as an irrevocable law in heaven.

RED is in the same boat as everyone else. We can make it better and make it for less given some time. How can we assure that our customers don't get screwed? Most of this is up to you. You need to use your pro equipment and expect that it will be obsolete the minute you buy it. Make it work. Or lose money. It can make you a living or sit on your shelf and devalue. Your call.

You need to put your investment in any camera system to work. Or you will lose money. That is a fact. Read this twice. Or more...

Obsolescence Obsolete. We do give you a chance. We upgrade. We allow trade-ins. We do everything possible to help you out. But in the end... you will lose if you don't put your equipment to work. These are the cold, hard facts.

Expect more capability for less money as time goes on. Think carefully before you buy anything. As soon as you receive it... use it.

Get ready for the future. It is full of more for less.

We take pride in telling you the truth. It is your job to accept it. Or not.

Jim

From the live chat:
[i]Comment From Jim Jannard Jim Jannard : ] When can I pre-order one of these? [/i]