FilmMan

For those interested. Here's the latest conversation:
[color=#ff0000]Leon[/color]

[color=#ff0000]@1% : I think the "5x5" part only applies to Hi-Res. If you select "Simple" it seems to completely ignore whether it is 5x5, 2x1, etc. I just had a wee play with the options, and an 18MP Hi-Res 5x5 comes out at 34MB, so it does seem to be uncompressed with 4:2:2 subsampling – I got something muddled up before and thought the full-res pics were much smaller.

Can burst not be done at higher quality and faster? With a UHS-1 Class 10 card, I only get 1.6 fps at only 1056x720 resolution. If the H.264 encoder is getting 1080p (or are they 972p at this point?) .422, can these not be written directly to the card? [b][i][u]What's limiting?[/u][/i][/b]

So if the .422 files aren't compressed, and they are the "input" to the H.264 encoder, what is this jpcore slice qp setting that controls "input" quality, and why does it not seem to exist for x264?[/color]

[color=#0000ff]1%[/color]
[indent][u][i][b][color=#0000ff]What's limiting?[/color][/b][/i][/u][/indent]
[color=#0000ff]The zooming.

I'm not sure if h.264 is fed from the LV buffer which is only 720x480? or from full size yuv buffer. You'd have ML graphics on the video, would you not? The simple pics come out worse quality than the encoded frames so something must be missing. If I'm not mistaken, the high-res ones clear the overlays too.

I think there are several steps to compression as there are multiple passes and mention of jpeg encoding being finished. So it could go YUV -> jpeg path -> h264E. You're not going to alter the quality of the raw YUV, just the compressor input.

The YUV has to be compressed with SOMETHING before we put it to the card. The simple frames are 3 MB. Card writes at ~20MB... raw would give you 6FPS only. The buffer is 1GB big and if not much is being used in ALL-I, the frames must be much smaller. I don't think the camera could take raw YUV, compress it with H264 and run several passes (for P frames) then write it to the card at over 30fps without some intermediate step.

x264 has slice QP parameter but it will not go below -10 on videos from the camera. But bit rate does rise if lower jpcore slice like 90/95 is used vs 100/110 and recording stops sooner filming the same thing. Q-scale -16 is only 112[/color]

Interesting stuff.

The Magic Lantern guys seem to be understanding things more. So will tweaking a few items in the encoder bring about better things? I think we know the answer! Understanding how to change the setting is the difficult part. Hey, talk of 422 is still going on. Will changing a few parameters do the trick?

From developer 1%
[i]Also, quite hilarious:[/i]

[i][url="http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2012/ipp_ipb_all_i_compare.shtml"]http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2012/ipp_ipb_all_i_compare.shtml[/url][/i]

[i]So 600D is 5dMK2.5? I guess this means all I is the best for quality (horrible for file size), especially with a fixed qp slice. Also explains why buffer is written immediately, there is no additional pass or prediction being done.[/i]

[color=#ff0000][size=5][i]if they really want to pack 4:2:2 10bit 1080/60p in gh3 with 80mbit/s they can do it[/i][/size][/color]

[size=5]If this happens then BAM! [/size]

A poster named Matt from Nofilmschool says,

The Panasonic AVC-Ultra family defines an additional three new encoding parameters within the MPEG-4 Part 10 standard, utilizing up to the 4:4:4 Intra Predictive Profile, as well as an additional low bitrate proxy recording mode.

The most efficient new parameter within AVC-Ultra is by Panasonic called, AVC-LongG. AVC-LongG enables compression of video resolutions up to 1920 × 1080 @ 23.97, 25 and 29.97p, with 10 bits of pixel depth at 4:2:2 color sampling, at data rates as low as 25 Mbit / sec.

More over, the AVC-Intra Class 50/100 is now extended to Class 200 and Class 4:4:4. The Class 200 mode extends the bitrate to 226 Mbit / sec for 1080/23,97p, while the Class 4:4:4 extends the possible resolution from 720p to 4K with pixel depths at 10 and 12 bits.

The bitrate settings for Class 4:4:4 varies between 200 and 440 Mbit / sec depending on the resolution, frame rate and bit depth. Both the Class 200 and the Class 4:4:4 are Intra-only coding modes

The AVC-Proxy mode enables extremely fast ENG content delivery and offline edits of 720p and 1080p video at bitrates varying between 800 Kbit to 3,5 Mbit / sec at 8 bits of pixel depth.

if they really want to pack 4:2:2 10bit 1080/60p in gh3 with 80mbit/s they can do it, let´s wait and see

Interesting...1% thoughts from the Magic Lantern Site...422 colour would be nice.

[i]Size of Simple 5x5 .422 is ~3mb. If we get it down to 1.0 mb or less we could record it fairly well. Maybe could be put through jpeg path but I don't know if any of them keep the 4:2:2. At 3mb would need like 480 megabits. My card does about 19MB write.

Even written as 1 frame of jpeg, could be made as image sequence in AE and then wav sound added. If there really is intermediate jpeg step already it would be even easier, just stop it from being passed to the H264E/Movie writer. I bet overhead goes down too.

I still think some buffer overruns are because compressor stop compressing. Buffer start filling from 1%-5% to suddenly 40, 60, 75, stop. Like new frames stop being written out. How can it do that at <90mbps when it records steadily at 120-130+ for minutes at a time with quality constant.[/i]

Maybe the GH3 will be 4K with 10 bit and 422? Wouldn't that rain on Canon's parade?

Okay everyone, here's the camera everyone is going to buy. Mortgage the house and sell the children.
Souped up C300??? Souped up C100??? Too bad there isn't a disgruntle Canon programmer who could open up the lesser camera models? C100 probably has the insides as to the C500 or at least the C300 probably has the same???

[url="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/855975-REG/Canon_EOS_C500_Cinema_EOS.html"]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/855975-REG/Canon_EOS_C500_Cinema_EOS.html[/url]

Quicktime issues.
[url="https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4002810?start=0&tstart=0"]https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4002810?start=0&tstart=0[/url]
[url="http://ahrengot.com/tutorials/fixing-quicktime-h264-gamma-bug/"]http://ahrengot.com/tutorials/fixing-quicktime-h264-gamma-bug/[/url]
[url="http://www.videocopilot.net/blog/2008/06/fix-quicktime-gamma-shift/"]http://www.videocopilot.net/blog/2008/06/fix-quicktime-gamma-shift/[/url]

Also be careful using AE for final delivery unless lossless. Better approaches.

I made a video a while back testing out my green screen (bought cheaply from ebay). Make sure the screen is clean from folds as mine was a little crumpled . I had my neighbor act and my 10 year as sound (only used the H4N). The video was shot on the 5D2. Lighting and where a person is standing is important when dealing with a green screen. Keyed nicely. Note the humour is political satire and not for everyone.

[url="https://vimeo.com/32753887"]https://vimeo.com/32753887[/url]

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=1565.0

Things looked promising however, issues arose. They can pump the bitrate, but the quality they want to achieve isn't there. Alot of different ideas are being tossed around. Still hopeful.

$12999 but ONLY for [u][b]Canon EOS-1D C Camera (Body Only)[/b][/u]
[u][b]So is the battery and charger extra??? Too funny or sad?[/b][/u]

Mr. Admin, just kidding. Check this out...

https://vimeo.com/anguslyne/bmcclimit

Lafilm,
Good find. Thanks. [b] $12,999.00.[/b]

Anyone find any coupons codes online for a reduced price? Just kidding.
Should be an interesting fall!

The world economic picture isn't rosy. There could be tougher times coming. If a company could secure the market in certain areas, then perhaps they should? If the world economies were moving at light speed and people had extra disposable income then yea - squeeze the consumer. But people don't have piles of extra cash. So it would make sense to over give extras and secure and expand your customer base. I recently saw an add for an "used Red one" selling for $5000!!! The market could get saturated quickly and unless a company really shines, then it will lose market share quicker than anticipated. It'll be an interesting fall as camera makers try for consumer dollars. It could be a rude awakening for some???

With the C500 read below (note not the C100). It gives an idea as to what the dynamic range could be - 12 stops for the C100??? For the price, they should give the 4K option.

[b]Canon Log [/b]
[i]Extensive image customisation includes built-in Canon Log Gamma, which delivers neutral image quality with wide dynamic range (800%) for maximum freedom in post-production, providing up to 12 stops of latitude. Canon Log is applied to 8-bit footage, 10-bit 4K RAW data, or the 12-bit log gamma setting for 2K RGB. [/i]
[i]An advantage of 10/12-bit log gamma settings, in comparison to the 8-bit log gamma setting, is their ability to reproduce detail in dark areas. At the 10-bit/12-bit log gamma setting much more information is recorded for the dark areas so there is less noise and the dark areas can be expressed in greater detail.[/i]

Give us a 4K option with this camera for a little bit more and then we're talking. Perhaps C150? C175? C200?

The Magic Lantern Team are impressive. The programmer 1% had some footage cranked to a whopping [size=5][b][u]200 mbp/s! [/u][/b][/size]
[size=5]There are definitely onto something with the bitrates. Whether they get it workable for the masses remains to be seen. I'm hoping. Cheers.[/size]

Matt,
The programmer 1% posted some videos. Night time and raining - Lamp shining on a brick wall. 4 videos (gop1/3/6/12) I looked at 2 of the 4 videos (gop1 and gop3). The gop3 video setting looks to me like the famed gh2 for clarity! They are using this program for analysis purposes too - [url="http://www.jongbel.com/?page_id=573"]http://www.jongbel.com/?page_id=573[/url] This is starting to get exciting because 100 mbps to 140 mbps are being discussed. Seems to be stable? Hopefully the links work.

Gop1
[url="http://upload.g3gg0.de/pub_files/d4c92e3c7850a189c1c192a86ace2f77/Lamp_Gop_1.MOV"]http://upload.g3gg0.de/pub_files/d4c92e3c7850a189c1c192a86ace2f77/Lamp_Gop_1.MOV[/url]

Gop3
[url="http://upload.g3gg0.de/pub_files/8e06487dd60083d1e42bd73197ec441c/Lamp_Gop_3.MOV"]http://upload.g3gg0.de/pub_files/8e06487dd60083d1e42bd73197ec441c/Lamp_Gop_3.MOV[/url]

Gop6

[url="http://upload.g3gg0.de/pub_files/1507715cede6b8b58d476acb7c2bc3ec/Lamp_Gop_6.MOV"]http://upload.g3gg0.de/pub_files/1507715cede6b8b58d476acb7c2bc3ec/Lamp_Gop_6.MOV[/url]

Gop12
[url="http://upload.g3gg0.de/pub_files/6186c340ceffd9fd7b4b6b940c14a0f5/Lamp_Gop_12.MOV"]http://upload.g3gg0.de/pub_files/6186c340ceffd9fd7b4b6b940c14a0f5/Lamp_Gop_12.MOV[/url]

The 1DC will be a top notch camera. 2 for 1 sale...price $30K

Seriously, Shane H will have an update soon. It will be a good camera but the price is the price.

Talk of street price of $13K.

I think there is an improvement after watching this video! It was just posted. This is getting really fun now.

roughly 116.89 mbp/s


As per 1% posted on the ML site:

[i]I have a similar for gop3, just have to upload it.
Here: [url="http://www.sendspace.com/file/mgj8ig"]http://www.sendspace.com/file/mgj8ig[/url][/i]

I was initially thinking the same as you as the bitrate may not matter. But this go around these guys are making visual progress! I downloaded the above footage and played with it. Surprisingly, the image looks to my old eyes to be pretty darn solid. On the ML site they had posted some images of a leaf at 2 different bitrates and there is a big difference in detail (for example, the lower bitrate leaf looks to be blurry in the middle whereas the higher bitrate has very noticeable fine details showing). It'll be interesting to see what they can pull off. Cheers.

For those interested:

1%, one of the Magic Lantern Programmers, has posted another video. Progress is being made on the bitrate investigation!!!

The video he posted is 159 MB and it is 11 seconds in length.

Check my calculations and correct me if I'm wrong.

159MB x 8 = 1272 mb (convert Megabyte to Megabit)

1272 divided by 11 seconds = [size=5][b]115.6 mbps[/b][/size]

[size=5][b]Here's the download to the video (note it is a test and they are still investigating)[/b][/size]
[size=5][b][u]Careful on clicking on the correct download[/u] or else you'll get spam.[/b][/size]
[i][size=5]Samples:
Here is a Gop4 video (~150MB)
[url="http://www.sendspace.com/file/fipvng"]http://www.sendspace.com/file/fipvng[/url][/size][/i]

On a business perspective, you want to keep the lead. You don't want consumers buying the competitor's products.
Canon could easily secure majority market share for video for many moons. They have excellent technologies. Will they give the consumer what they want at affordable prices? Lot's of competition creeping into the picture now.

[b]On a side note:[/b]

Magic lantern team is making progress in the bitrate department. Will they achieve as the coders did with the GH2??? It is getting very interesting!!!

Here's some quotes from the programmer 1%.
[b]From August 24, 2012.[/b]
[i][b][color=#0000FF]If we can stop the error 70[/color][/b] and this doesn't adversely impact quality it would be a winner. I've never written such high BR video this consistently.[/i]
[u][b]From today, [color=#FF0000]August 26, 2012.[/color][/b][/u]
[i]Ok, thanks to g3gg0 and [color=#0000FF][b][u]nanomad error 70 is fixed.[/u][/b][/color] You're free to set the gop how you like, 1-100 something.[/i]

I've been saving my empties. I'm only $14,975 short.

Canon 1DC

[url="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/08/canon-eos-1d-c-availability/"]http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/08/canon-eos-1d-c-availability/[/url]

Let's see what Canon does in the near future...should be soon?