FilmMan

I'm thinking about this dilemma.  Some mumble jumble talk below. FS700 has lots of positives.  Do we really need 4k?  Downsampled from 4k to 1080p produces a very solid image  (provided the shooter knows what he/she is doing).  Slow motion is nice to have too but too much sugar ruins the coffee.  A larger sensor helps.  BM's image is early.  Raw or using the robust codec should keep excellent detail.  BM's image is very filmic.  Looking to be a baby Arri?  I did some of my own testing and like very much what I see so far (the big boys better wake up).  Still early in the game and more footage is needed to veryify.  There are the concerns as people pointed out but there is not perfect camera.  We are indoctrinated by camera companies.  Having more horse power under the hood doesn't mean the speed is needed. We are being lead about 4k.  People talk about seeing the pores under the skin.  Doesn't too sharp defeat the purpose?  More doesn't always mean it is better. Dynamic Range is very important.  Detail is important.  A robust codec is important.  Hey, BM offers that.  Kineraw is coming too.  Magic Lantern people are making progress too.  Still early in the game.  May should be interesting.

If they get it, then it should be good to go on a few of the Canons such as the 5d too.  They might actually pull it off. 

It appears progress continues.  If anyone is a programmer and/or hacker and wants to give this a go may want to look at the below.  Clean HDMI is one goal.  Not there yet and may never be or they may get there.  Read below: Interesting.  Register than can be used for clean HDMI out: http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Register_Map/Clean_HDMI Alex response to a new programmer (I'm putting it here in case someone understands and wants to get involved.) http://groups.google.com/group/ml-devel/browse_thread/thread/4cf08a6ad8a24be3# Hi Jim, and welcome! - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Jim Burnes <jvbur...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > I just joined the group and I'm planning on hacking on the 550d/Atomos Ninja > combination to see how far I can take it. > Has anyone experimented with this yet? > What little I know or suspect is the following: > 1. Atomos can do 10-bit/channel recording (30 bits / pixel) in 1080i/60 > which is how 1080p/24 is encoded in 3:2 pulldown. > 2. 550d HDMI live view streams use 8-bit 1440 x 1080 which is embedded > within black borders.  (Not sure if this is the resolution which feeds to > both HDMI stream and H264 recording, or is particular to live view.  I would > guess its a limitation imposed because of limited encoding bandwidth -- need > more info) > 3. I don't know if HDMI output includes the pixel binning results or if its > a raw sensor crop. The raw data sent to HDMI can be found by taking a screenshot in ML (it's a 422 file). It's not raw. I believe it's downsampled a bit. The native resolution (at which the sensor seems to be sampled while recording) can be found here: https://bitbucket.org/hudson/magic-lantern/src/tip/src/vram.c#cl-179 > In any case, if possible I'm prepared to hack any parameters or do special > stream processing to: > 1. Increase HDMI res to full 1920 x 1080 See our notes here: http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Register_Map Hint: try to understand how the firmware resizes the black bars when you press DISP/INFO. Probably the easiest way is to configure the display device (C0F14xxx) to resize the image data to fit the screen (but this will not improve the actual resolution, just upscale the image). > 2. Increase pixel depth to 10-bit. I don't think it's possible. You need to change the code running on the image processing chip (so-called DIGIC). > 3. Write any C/Lua code to enable this. > If anyone could point to a decent block diagram of the dataflow and stream > processing between the image capture / monitoring and recording functional > units in the 550 it would be an excellent aid while browsing the source > code. My best guess about this would be: - sample raw data from sensor (14-bit) - somewhere inside DIGIC - apply a simple linear transformation (black and white levels, as in "dcraw -k black_level -S white_level") - convert data to 12 bits (hints: 14_12 strings in the firmware, and the dynamic range in movie mode compared to photo raws) - apply curves, gamma, picture styles, etc - at this point we have 8-bit 422 data available in image buffers (these buffers are visible from the general-purpose CPU) From here, we have LiveView data going to: 1) display device (so-called LV image buffer) 2) recorded video (so-called HD image buffer); this is active in standby too, but usually at lower resolution. See http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/VRAM/Geometry for more info about these buffers. I believe one of those buffers is downsampled for the other (usually, HD contains non-resized data, while LV contains resized data). On HDMI 1080, it may be the opposite. Also, I believe the HD buffer is passed directly to H.264 engine (which configured via C0E0xxxx registers), and the H.264 module also upsamples the data to 1080p and converts it to YUV420. - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -

There still is over 3 months before BM is released (supposedly July 30).  In the interim, the following possibles: 1.  Sony FS700 (who knows what the final release version will bring). 2.  Kineraw releases their S35 during June.  It isn't a proven company as BM but if the ducks are lined properly (quality build, distribution, excellent video picture, competitive price, etc.) then it could have an impact.  What if the picture turns out to be compariable to the Arri???  Lot's of questions remain. 3.  Other cameras (a couple are lurking). 4.  Canon opens up the 5D3 to raw or better codec. 5.  Magic Lantern gets the HDMI out.  6.  Other. Will the giants let BlackMagic gain momentum?  Will they attempt to crush?  Interesting stuff supposedly coming in May and forward. 

Another camera possible. http://www.apertus.org/ http://www.apertus.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=504 First come, first serve.  Black Magic is leading the way as it has a working model.  Kineraw has a working model too.  Black Magic's visual video image is very refreshing, sort of like a baby Arri or F35 image???  I'm not making this statement based only on viewing posted video.  The BM image is better than most realize (but with proper tweaking). More video is needed to make a better assessment.  Will Canon respond in May?  Competition leads to more advancements, at least we hope. 

Actually, BM might put them to sleep.  Amazing camera.

I think the BlackMagic will be a [size=14pt]big [/size] wakeup call for the camera manufacturers.  Did a little more digging. 

BlackMagic ...DT.  [size=14pt]The camera boys better watch out. [/size] 

How true.  Right on.

Axel, I downloaded the jpg, and after color grading etc., I get pretty darn good detail in the shoulder area behind the powder box.  Give it er a go and see what you come up with. 

Maybe I should have said the different shades of black.  Doesn't have the "crushie dslr tone" to it.  Download the jpg (although compressed) and play around with it. http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/frame-grabs-for-leah/leah_1-20-2/

The details in the blacks is very good.  Lit with 1.2K and light bounced by 4x4 poly.  Still early.  More footage is needed.  I'd like to be able to download some ungraded footage and give it a go. 

markm, [color=pink][i]If you put it in the context of the C300 V the FS700 Its wrong[/i][/color]Nope.  C300 is around $17000 and the FS700 is around $9000.  Sony knocks the price down.  [color=pink][i]The truth is both cameras are NOT the next level up. [/i] [/color] Sony is priced above the other camera in the $4k level.  Its the next level up in price. [color=pink][i]The next camera up by a long margin is the new black magic camera which is at least in specs is at the alexa level. FOR £2310 Maybe it even beats the Alexa for some as it records too. [/i] [/color] I was referring to price.  So I can see where your confusion lies. [color=pink][i]Defining the next level UP by Canon and Sony standards is wrong and has been wrong for a while now and its what has been annoying many indie or consumer film makers AND why the sony canon and other manufacturers forced standards are becoming ever more absurd.[/i][/color] Referring to the price.  Sony is offering a camera, FS700, for a price of $8000 to $10000 (ex., next level up from the 5D3 price level). Sony could have charged more. 

Markm, With regards to Sony: Canon's C300 is priced almost double to the Sony FS700.  Sony is giving some items which are useful.  4k downsampled to 1080p - so similar to Canon C300.  Also slow motion.  Yea, they could have given other goodies, but it is a start.  When I'm talking about Sony, it is in the context of the next camera level up.  I'm not talking about  the $3K camera market range .  I can see where the confusion can arise. I'll stand by my statement, Sony has shown their cards and [i][b]seems to be listening[/b][/i]

Emailed Kineraw yesterday.  Responded very quickly.  Nothing news except #2.  [i]Glad to hear from you. 1. KineRAW-S35 is in pre-production, and it will be launched in China Mainland in this coming May probably. It may come to other countries in next half year. 2. Some footage will be released soon. And our website will be update in recent days. 3. KineRAW camera is opened one which means you may choose other accessories including SSD, Batteries, monitor, EVF.[/i] It supposedly will have a Super35mm Sized CMOS Sensor.  With the Sony FS700, the BM, etc., Kineraw's timing could have been better (if only  they would have been a few months sooner) due to these recent developments?  We'll see what comes about in the next while with them.  Video images will be very important as well as the price (was supposed to be $6K to $8K in price).

The film community isn't asking for the world.  BM is giving a taste of what should have been coming from the big boys.  Why is a small entity leading the charge???  People can read.  People can see.  People know what is good and what is not.  Companies must be aware of what the consumers want.  This is 2012.  The market speaks.  Sony has shown their cards and seems to be listening.  BM is coming on the scene with their brand new camera.  If a company gives a quality detail image at 1080p, with a few other desired specs  (better codec, or raw, useable with current lenses, etc) then consumers will buy.  The 5D2 is an excellent camera.  But the detail could be better.  The codec could be better.  Canon decided not to provide at this price level.  Not asking much.  The 5D3 falls short.  Most people are aware.  People know the detail the GH2 gives.  People aren't stupid. 

Camera:  Panasonic AG-AF100 [size=18pt]The Raid: Redemption [/size]

Black Magic has caught the eyes of the masses.  They should release some more video. 

[i]For those looking at John's stuff, disable scaling in full screen mode. No wonder it looks soft... Believe me it isn't.[/i] Andrew, thanks for that bit. It isn't soft.  This camera is well thought out. 

Once more footage is out then a more objective opinion could be made.  It will probably be a big winner of a camera.  The video does have a cinematic feel to it. 

Cameraboy, It is a nice organic look. As per the link you gave, these guys didn't have all the bells and whistles on this pre model.  The video, with proper grading, should rank right up there.  http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/blackmagic-cinema-camera-lets-take-it-from-the-top/

Specs: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/blackmagiccinemacamera/techspecs/

Sara, There could be more coming...I like what this camera sets out to do. What this camera shows, is the bigger companies are holding back.  Give the market what people want at an afordable price.  Competition, you gotta love it. ;)

http://cinescopophilia.com/sneak-peek-pictures-of-the-panasonic-4k-varicam-camera/

OlegKalyan, Not sure if you saw this. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1899353/technical Camera Panasonic AG-AF100 (with 35mm adaptor)