Tzedekh

[quote author=shijan link=topic=690.msg5066#msg5066 date=1336504866] [quote author=Tzedekh link=topic=690.msg5018#msg5018 date=1336410615] Blackmagic Design hasn't confirmed that its Cinema Camera uses the BAE/Fairchild CIS2051 sensor. [/quote] its clear that it uses that sensor without BM confirmation. Just look here even 30 fps limit match to BM cahttp://ridl.cfd.rit.edu/products/sCMOS/scmos_white_paper_8mb.pdf mera specs. [/quote] Some of the specs match up, but others don't. The CIS2051 has a global-shutter mode, whereas the BM camera is rolling shutter only (or so it's been claimed by those supposedly in the know). The 2051 can do 105 fps at 2,560 x 2,160 (52.5 fps with a global shutter) and far higher frame rates in various windowed modes. The lack of a global shutter and higher frame rates may be a function of system bandwidth, particularly since the BMC's raw is uncompressed. It's possible that with a comparatively easy-to-process compressed raw codec (like CineForm RAW, which, according to David Newman, takes less processing power than ProRes), higher frame rates might be possible. Only BMD knows for sure.

[quote author=cameraboy link=topic=690.msg5052#msg5052 date=1336492206] @Tzedekh arri alexa Dual Gain Architecture is different than HDR (2 frames to combine them for HDR)... working with HDR image is similar as working with VFX...go to reduser forum and read about their experience with EPIC HDR  ... its not free lunch ... i like that my camera image sensor have native high DR than all that tricks... [/quote] There are several ways to accomplish HDR, and one of them is with dual gain. In the Alexa, two 14-bit images -- a high-gain one and a low-gain one -- are captured simultaneously and combined into a single 16-bit composite image. That sounds like an HDR approach to me.

[quote author=cameraboy link=topic=690.msg5041#msg5041 date=1336465340] but in standard mode (not HDR ) its only 62 db (10.6 stops of DR) less than kodak ccd sensor in ikonoskop ... [/quote] Then leave HDR mode on. The [url=http://www.arri.de/camera/digital_cameras/technology/arri_imaging_technology/alexas_sensor.html][u]Arri Alexa's sensor[/u][/url] would probably have only about 10 stops of DR if it didn't perform a dual readout of its pixels. In other words, it's in HDR mode by default. Strangely, this sensor seems to be virtually identical to another Panavision Imaging sensor, the [url=http://www.panavisionimaging.com/PDF/D11_PB0017_2011_11_04.pdf][u]Dynamax-11[/u][/url], announced last November. And viimagic's [url=http://www.viimagic.com/fileadmin/pdf/viimagic-9221-9222-Product-Brief_V04.pdf][u]9221/2[/u][/url] and [url=http://www.viimagic.com/fileadmin/pdf/viimagic-9225-9226-Product-Brief_V03.pdf][u]9225/6[/u][/url] sensors have similar specs.

Blackmagic Design hasn't confirmed that its Cinema Camera uses the BAE/Fairchild CIS2051 sensor.

[quote author=jindrich link=topic=631.msg4636#msg4636 date=1335312227]$20k being an HD S35 camera, with S-Log, EOS-to-PL, 60p, XLRs, NDs, and added 10bit 444 recorder, can somebody build, distribute and support on a world level a similar one for much less? Not unless Apple gets in.[/quote] Apple would likely never do it, because the volume wouldn't be there. It hasn't become a $600 billion company by building expensive, relatively low-volume products. Apple produces both its PC hardware [i]and[/i] the OS, but its market share of the PC market has always been small compared with Windows-based computers. That's why it appears to be considering leaving the high end and discontinuing the Mac Pro. High-volume consumer products are what catapulted the company into the stratosphere. So it seems doubtful that Apple would enter a niche market and create a product for which a $10,000 price would be considered cheap.

The problem with global-shutter mode is that it cuts the maximum frame rate to 50 fps and most likely reduces the the light sensitivity, S/N ratio, and dynamic range.

[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=613.msg4504#msg4504 date=1335085262]The $2k digital Bolex already has 720p 60fps and it is the only feature of any significant it has over the BM.[/quote] It also has a global shutter. But if the BMD uses the sCMOS chip mentioned elsewhere, it too has a global-shutter mode, although that likely would lower the dynamic range significantly. (That sensor is also capable of 100 fps in rolling-shutter mode and 50 fps in global-shutter mode).

[quote author=shijan link=topic=613.msg4481#msg4481 date=1335020070] not sure that someone can do S35 for 4.5K in near future because bigger sensors are waaay more expensive.[/quote] It depends. Bigger sensors are more expensive, but more importantly, there are far fewer available. Even the much-ballyhooed (and I've certainly ballyhooed it) sensor, the CMOSIS CMV12000, isn't ideal. According to Wim Wuyts, CMOSIS's Director Marketing and Sales:[list]Please note that the CMV12000 has been primarily developed for industrial vision application and as such some of the optical performance is maybe not what you would expect for modern broadcasting image sensors. The biggest difference is that our sensor has a global shutter functionality which is a key spec for industrial imaging but this has unfortunately an impact on the pixel performance like dynamic range. The HDR modes are kind of compression modes and . . . as such [do] not increase the linear DR which is of interest in broadcasting.[/list]But as S35 consumer video become more popular, I expect the situation to change, and while the sensor may be more expensive, most of the rest of the camera -- lens mount, SSD-based recording, I/O -- can be reused. The only additional cost may be the circuitry needed to compress a ≥4K image to manageable data rates in realtime. (Twelve-bit CineForm RAW 4K has a data rate of maybe 25%-50% of that of 12-bit 2K CinemaDNG, which is uncompressed.) Do I think it's doable for $4.5-5K? Maybe, by 2013, if good, reasonably priced 4K-ish S35 sensors appear, it's entirely possible we'll see something at or near that price point.

Once again, in her response to my post, Jan didn't address whether Panasonic is abandoning the m4/3 format. Sure, producing new units of the AF100 and servicing current ones are great (although dinging people $250 for a firmware update does seem a little greedy). But it looks like what she did say was that even a 10-bit AVC-Intra AF100-style camera with an improved m4/3 sensor wouldn't be adequate. Well, short of a 4K m4/3 model, I'm not sure how you would improve the format, so she does have a point. But short of a 4K [i]anything[/i], what's going to be viable for the two or more years of a camera's life cycle? But what's one practical implication of m4/3's possible abandonment? Lens obsolescence. If you're investing in lenses specifically for the format, you probably won't be able to use them on Panny's next offering.

[quote author=markm link=topic=600.msg4244#msg4244 date=1334760888] Jan Thank you for responding to this thread! Would love to see more of you here. Will there be a follow up model to the AF100 I appreciate the camera was initially a ground breaker in terms of being the first camera to offer a large sensor and the camera was a reasonable cost. It would be fantastic to see a new upgraded version in the four thirds format that gives a better sensor more latitude and 10 bit out. [/quote] Notice how she says that the [i]AF100[/i] isn't dead? Well, of course it isn't. Panasonic is hoping to generate new revenues by charging $250 to add AVCHD 2.0 capability to it. The camera isn't dead until the last one stops functioning. By this measure, even the DVX100 is still alive. She talked about the 4K camera and AVC-Ultra. What she didn't say is that there will be an AF100 successor, especially in the m4/3 format, at a comparable (or cheaper) price point. It was anticipated last year. Now, two years after the AF100 was announced, there's still no successor. It seems that with a little effort, the AF100's sensor (or, preferably, an improved update) could've been coupled with the HPX250's 10-bit P2/AVC-Intra 100 guts to produce a $6K camera. But no. So, I think the basic premise of Andrew Reid's post is valid and the AF line ends with the AF100.

[quote author=bwhitz link=topic=600.msg4217#msg4217 date=1334725814] [quote author=abortabort link=topic=600.msg4215#msg4215 date=1334723664] Didn't Panasonic just release a firmware update for the AF100 giving it 50/60p 28Mbit codec? [/quote] A 28mb/s codec? HAHAHAH... what is this 1997? [/quote] Plus, you get to pay $250 for the upgrade.

[quote author=unconsenting link=topic=596.msg4031#msg4031 date=1334604709] I think it is to get people hooked on DaVinci free for post and in the long run, when people do well enough financially, they will upgrade to the larger DaVinci system. In fact, you can only do 1080p in DaVinci free, I believe. [/quote] I believe it comes with a license for the full DaVinci Resolve, plus Media Express (for video capture from the camera’s Thunderbolt port) and Blackmagic UltraScope (waveform monitoring).

[quote author=mike_tee_vee link=topic=579.msg3996#msg3996 date=1334582466] Who knows, maybe they're throwing in the towel on micro 4/3s at the pro level. [/quote] You may be on to something. At the press conference, they didn't say what size sensor will be used in the 4K Varicam. Moving to S35 would enable them to achieve better dynamic range without having to develop radical new materials or designs for their m4/3 sensors. Plus they wouldn't need to develop a line of professional m4/3 video lenses that only their camera (and it's really just one camera) uses.

[quote author=jaybirch link=topic=579.msg3995#msg3995 date=1334579679] Actually, the combo of AVC-Ultra and Micro P2 cards could well be some of the best news EVER for the budget indie guy. Panasonic often give away more than they should at consumer level... It would not shock me one bit to see the GH3 launch with the above combo. You could be looking at the birth of 10bit 4:2:2 recording on consumer products. [/quote] The GH3 is expected this fall, and AVC-Ultra video products are not scheduled to ship until 2013, so I seriously doubt you'll see 10-bit 4:2:2 on a still camera before Panasonic releases professional video cameras with it. Further, the Micro P2 format actually limits the data rate to 50 Mbps. That would preclude the higher-rate GH2 hacks like Driftwood, which tops out at something like 176 Mbps. So, if implemented on any forthcoming GH2 successor, that could be a way for Panasonic to hobble it and protect their video products.

Well, you can forget Panasonic. They rehashed AVC-Ultra, showed a new $16K 2/3-inch 1080p camera, and announced they will be charging $250 for a minor AF100 firmware upgrade. Although they showed a 4K Varicam mockup, it won't be available until sometime next year. Maybe their worst showing in years.

I might add that the camera should support 10-bit over the HDMI and 3G-SDI, and 12-bit raw. Otherwise it's old tech. The difference in component prices can't be any more than a few dollars. Let's move on from 8-bit 4:2:0 already. But I think the C100 will never happen.

[quote author=markm link=topic=569.msg3782#msg3782 date=1334237013] The Sony fs700 4K should be good if you want to colour correct but they only made it 8 bit Although I think if you downconvert uncompressed 8 bit 4k to 1080p it will give more colour information. But then you need the recorder that isnt even built.[/quote] Although the details regarding 4K on the FS700 haven't been released, from what I've read, 12-bit raw will be an option for 4K, but an external recorder will be necessary.

[quote author=FilmMan link=topic=572.msg3791#msg3791 date=1334240389] TZDEKH, $15K suggested retail: http://www.eoshd.com/comments/index.php/topic,571.0.html [/quote] Yes, MSRP. What other price can you quote? Who knows what the street price will be?

The Cinema 1D is $15K. The C500 does 10-bit (not 12-bit) 4K raw up to 60 fps (not 120 fps) and up to 120 fps in 10-bit YCrCb 4:2:2 mode.

Did they lower the price to $10K? Fifteen minutes ago, it was $15K.

[quote author=jaybirch link=topic=569.msg3775#msg3775 date=1334228948] Canon look set to release a Full Frame 4K camera for under $10k..... and the majority of people say it is overpriced  :( Based against what? It literally has NO competition, ZERO. [/quote] It's not a problem with 4K for $10K, it's with every compromise Canon has deliberately built into the camera that hobbles it: 8-bit 4:2:0 MJPEG codec, probably hobbled HDMI, etc. [b]EDIT:[/b] It's official. While it's 4:2:2, it's still only 8-bit, even out of HDMI. And the MSRP is $15K. Kinda makes Scarlet-X look good.

So I guess no big Panasonic announcement today.

You covered Canon's raw format in a January 27, 2012, post, "[url=http://www.eoshd.com/content/6976/canon-developing-4k-raw-video-format][color=blue][u]HOT! Canon developing 4K RAW video format[/u][/color][/url]."

[quote author=mike_tee_vee link=topic=548.msg3609#msg3609 date=1333987910] A VG20 competitor with the GH2 sensor would be intriguing.  Sony continuously releases these lame duck VG models at nearly 3x the price of the NEX 5N levels that are completely crippled.  The market allows this because there are NO competitors at this stage. [/quote] If it had 12 stops of dynamic range, AVC-LongG (10-bit 4:2:2) or at least 10-bit 4:2:2 HDMI out (with timecode), some sort of log profile, and a sub-$2K price, it would be nearly perfect.

[quote author=jaybirch link=topic=548.msg3592#msg3592 date=1333974640] I think there will be two 4/3rd cameras.... AF200 (1080p, P2, AVC Ultra, 10bit, 4:2:2 $8k) and AF500 (4K, P2, AVC Ultra, 12bit, 4:4:4, $16k) and possibly a 1/4" or 1/2" camera for broadcast. AVC Ultra will be immense. No more external recorders and P2 is not as crazy expensive as a few years ago. Anyone here who hasn't used P2 are in for a treat... Such a great, reliable system. [/quote] I don't get why your AF200 should cost so much, other than Panasonic wishing to increase profit margins. The HPX250 (with 1080p, P2, and AVC-Intra 100) is less than $6K, and the AF100 less than $5K. Strip out the HPX250's more complex imaging block and expensive 22X zoom lens and add the simpler m4/3 imager. I'm no sure including AVC-LongG really improves upon AVC-Intra 100 (which already does 10-bit 4:2:2), but OK. (As far as I'm aware, neither codec supports 1080p60 or higher frame rates.) So, if the technology is already there in a reasonable-size package, why would combining it increase the price by 30% to 60%?