markm

Andrew Do you know of specific lenses that are not uber expensive say a wide angle f2 lens or f1.4 to f2 primes that are between 11mm to 35mm? I think this is about the range you would want for normal film making and essential if you're going to have dof control. Love to hear others suggestions for sensible lenses for dof control.

After looking through the lenses here in the accessories and a lot of research it seems not many decent lenses at all. Especially zooms and wide angles. http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/blackmagic_cinema_camera I've got a set of zeiss superspeeds that are adapted for M4/3 and would be perfect for this. I'm not paying £3000 a go for the new zeiss primes. I've also got a nice selection of Pentax lenses and Arri zooms. I considered because of the low price of the BMC I could buy another set of lenses but alas I fear not. Damn stupid if you ask me.

I had initially thought you could use adapters but now it seems you wont be able to as you can always use an adapter that is longer but not shorter so my lenses aint gonna work and if you did invest in lenses they mostly seem to be over f2.8 and not that many Wide angle lenses or choice and as the sensor is small to start with not much dof control here. Why oh why did Black Magic cripple it with lens choice All they needed to do was stick a FOUR THIRDS mount on it or make one that could be interchangeable.

[quote author=jaybirch link=topic=738.msg5471#msg5471 date=1337343248] I've used the C300 and Scarlet... the resolution is better, especially with a touch of sharpening, in post... From what I have seen from the F3, i'd say the same (the Gh2 is very close though) I think the C300 codec is better. 4:2:2 and 50mbps beats 4:2:0 and mega high kbps. Of course, that is just my opinion. The other cams beat the Gh2... goes without saying (assuming you use an external recorder with the F3) I haven't seen this zacuto test, but unless they lit the whole scene for around 9 stops, then latitude and rolloff becomes a major limitation of the Gh2 (in my eyes). Even Joe Public will respond well to nice latitude, roll off and colour (more so than resolution). This is why I would like to hear far more opinions on this shoot out before the internet starts toasting the GH2. Maybe this guy was pixel peeping for a certain aspect (say, noise)... and didn't take in the whole aesthetic. I love everything about the GH2, for the price and size.... But it suffers big time for latitude and rolloff. In controlled lighting though, I would happily use it on a bigger job. [/quote] Jay that's why in my opinion the GH2 is semi pro and for what £600??? You could still get decent results that no one will notice the difference between the higher end cams. But in any case if you want the last word in PRO get the BMC Thats certainly what I want and cant wait to relegate my GH2 to crash cam or backup. Personally I dont like the way the GH2 handles. I know you get a stonking picture but to me it doesnt feel like a video camera. which it isnt. I wouldn't place the GH2 over the C300 or the F3 but you can get near or sometimes even better results. I certainly couldnt justify buying the C300 or the F3 over a GH2 and now with the BMC youd have to be plain mental.

I would think resolution would be similar. Better codec? I have to disagree with driftwoods hacks. As for latitude and highlight rolloff This all comes under how you use the camera bearing in mind there are limitations. Those limitations though are in keeping with being Black Magics little spiritual brother! You want to be a PRO get the BMC you want to be SEMI pro get the GH2. All other camera choices are either specialist where you pay a MASSIVE premium or just plain overpriced.

I would not have  rated the GH2 before the new firmware update and Nick Driftwoods settings. The GH2 is now a wonderful professional quality camera still limited to 8 bit 4,2,0 The new Black Magic Camera fullfills its shortcomings For the first time 2 reasonably priced cameras that give PRO results. Both at the right customer friendly price and both automatically the choice of indie film makers. For now that is!

I think Sony are going to lose out big time to BMC. 4k is not relevent to consumers. What will they use 4k for? The equipment and workflow is expensive and the consumers are being led there like sheep to a pen by the big corporations leaving no other road to go. With a promise of 4k 8bit and likely limited latitude with all the crippling that goes into making sure consumer 4k is well away from professional gear. BMC on the other hand offer professional equipment in 1080  that is current technology maxed out. Equivelent to an Arri Cmon who in there right mind is going to be led by the big corporations by the nose down towards their marketing strategy 4k heaven. 4k is overkill for consumers. 1080 is a pro format and the real picture quality comes from its latitude and 12 bit and uncompressed workflow. The Sony FS700 compared to a BMC is the same as a fiat to a porsche at the moment and If IF they make a 4k recorder CHEAP enough for consumer you can bet in some way it will be crippled or the workflow to expensive or both. It should be that BMC clean up at every single level from £3000 to £50,000. Why? Because it can plain beat the lot. The sensor is big enough for DOF creativity if you can use lenses like zeiss superspeeds that hopefully will work and can adapt some of the 4/3 lenses. The super35 and 4/3 sensors are not like the old film versions of 16mm and 35mm. They both record the same level of detail The next big thing may very well be the digital bolex if it means all the 16mm lenses can be used. I think the world has moved on and the big corporations haven't. They had an opportunity and they blew it. Now they can either catch up and give consumers the good stuff Or they will disappear. That's business. What goes around comes around.

If its got 88db of dynamic range that's over 14.5 stops. Maybe they have access to the sensor coming out later this year and 13 stops is conservative. Often claims can be over exaggerated though. Maybe it is 42db with much noise reduction applied to cheat it to 13 stops. Hmm getting confused now.

Wondo I don't think it's about greed. The Japanese factories need to make money. The technology they have made have revolutionised the world. The problem is they are holding back technology in order to keep things the same. This is the wrong way What they need to do is evolve.

I'd like to see the ability to crop the sensor more to standard or super 16mm frame size so all those lenses could be used as well. Just in case some don't know the sensor width is 15.6 and four thirds is 17.3 In other words its so close to four thirds as it might as well be.

[quote author=FilmMan link=topic=600.msg4279#msg4279 date=1334788705] Markm, With regards to Sony: Canon's C300 is priced almost double to the Sony FS700.  Sony is giving some items which are useful.  4k downsampled to 1080p - so similar to Canon C300.  Also slow motion.  Yea, they could have given other goodies, but it is a start.  When I'm talking about Sony, it is in the context of the next camera level up.  I'm not talking about  the $3K camera market range .  I can see where the confusion can arise. I'll stand by my statement, Sony has shown their cards and [i][b]seems to be listening[/b][/i] [/quote] If you put it in the context of the C300 V the FS700 Its wrong The truth is both cameras are [b][u]NOT[/u][/b] the next level up. The next camera up by a long margin is the new black magic camera which is at least in specs is at the alexa level. FOR £2310 Maybe it even beats the Alexa for some as it records too. Defining the next level UP by Canon and Sony standards is wrong and has been wrong for a while now and its what has been annoying many indie or consumer film makers AND why the sony canon and other manufacturers forced standards are becoming ever more absurd.

Film man I think Sony are one of the worst offenders. Where is Sony's large sensor Cam with 1080p 10 bit 4,2,2 out with ND filters and Slog? or even just a few cine gamas? for the masses? Oh yes its all wrapped up in its gold plated £11000 F3 with £2500 for slog and another dip for an outboard recorder that has to be 4,4,4 meaning another £5000 to get 13 stops. Add in another £3000 each for the often slow zeiss primes or £7000 if you want a zoom lens that you'll have to get rid of if you want another camera. Or you could go for a nice £15000 zoom Oh yes Sony have made sure they and the peripherals are the only large sensor game in town. Less of course you want to pay £8000 for their 8 bit out smaller brother and you want to get the 4k thrill ride down wallet alley. Compare that to Black Magic's £3000 camera with it's 12 bit and 13 stops and  raw recorder as well as numerous other functions indie film makers have been crying out for.

I believe Jan only came here to put right what she has called the rumour that panasonic are pulling the plug on four thirds. That I believe is her only reason. We do not constitute a trusted site like DVinfo and therefore should not expect her to debate here. TRUST me DVinfo would have stopped the free flow debate already AND any criticism of a trusted panasonic rep. Some here would have been warned or lost their forum membership already. The reality is This is an open debating site and those who get subsidised by the manufacturers are not. Until manufacturers stop paying forums how on earth can anyone trust the people who run them from making sure the right lines are towed?

Okay so no new replacement for the AF100. I feel panasonic have made a bad move here. Although they could never have foreseen Black magics devasting move I believe manufacturers should have treated their customers better. Whats wrong with a decent sensor 10 bit out Nd filters 1080p eh? Why not bring out what the public want instead of creating a desire for a format like 4k that ups the price for something most of us dont need. Black Magic saw the gaping hole So have all the periphal maufactures doing great business thanks to the protectionism going on and seeming collusion between the big names. The only people they are really hurting though is themselves and in the end companies like Black Magic are the future. HMM HONEST FORUMS????? Like DVINFO Perhaps??? When manufacturers are paying forums for advertising isnt there a conflict of interest. I don't think manufacturers should be subsidising forums. Bad enough on review sites which leaves them open to dishonesty. I believe forums should be public debating arenas and as such should be neutral.

Yes its often the way representatives speak. You have to read carefully. I'm pretty sure there will be no AF100 replacement as a consequence four thirds could be a casualty. Hope not but thats my opinion. Its also funny how reps have become highly respected on forums often put on a pedestal and often petulant and aggressive to any who dare argue as the forum will ban any who do. Things have to be above board but then you also have to watch some websites like DVinfo where they are heavily subsidised by manufacturers and often shut down any honest debate or discussion that highlights obvious flaws or ask sensitive questions. Of course some forums are just plain nasty and bonkers. I will be ordering the black magic camera. Companies like them are the future and about time too! 

Jan Thank you for responding to this thread! Would love to see more of you here. Will there be a follow up model to the AF100 I appreciate the camera was initially a ground breaker in terms of being the first camera to offer a large sensor and the camera was a reasonable cost. It would be fantastic to see a new upgraded version in the four thirds format that gives a better sensor more latitude and 10 bit out.

Yes but why is four thirds not seen as professional Its actually a good idea. Maybe its to do with the way they cripple their cameras that might be the problem IE the af101 supposed to be 1080p actually resolves 670 lines with 8 bit out and other issues. The hacked GH2 slams it. Four thirds could actually be a VERY professional format. All this Must have silly bokeh levels is UN professional if you ask me. Some of the new four third lenses are better than pro 35mm lenses even two f2 zooms the only ones in the world at that speed.

Pretty obvious why panasonic are getting rid of the AF line.  Because to reasonably improve the sensor would have undermined the higher priced future cameras. Now they can bring out a super 35mm sensor cam for £12000 ONLY Black Magic have stopped them cold! Just gets better n better! When Red originally started they claimed they wanted to stop the endless cycle of forcing consumers to buy the next big thing and giving us a fair deal. Funny how its all panned out. Seems all Red did was cater for the pro's. In the end Black Magic it seems have championed the cause of the little guy. I can't see the the big manufacturers who were hoping to persuade indie film makers into mortgaging there homes will get away with it now. Difficult to see what they will do as the argument to persuade people is a dead duck. All they can do is face a year of losses and try to do better next year in my opinion.

Unbelievably some are disapointed about the sensor size. This gives you potentially just enough bokeh to make the camera hit the bullseye on everything. Okay it has no ND filters but then neither do most high end pro cameras and this spec is right up there with them. It's just well PERFECT!

All the times ive had to suffer being told how grateful we should be that manufacturers like Sony are giving us amazing things and all the times I've had to listen to crap. Finally Black magic have bought out a sensible priced camera that does everything you need to make a damn film. Not that clever really when you think of how in the 60's you could buy a 16mm camera that could do similar and yes film costs and all the work blah blah but WE really should have moved on by 2012 and by golly WE JUST DID. Not that we should be grateful because as the human race were entitled to move on and not be kept locked out by manufacturers conspiring to make as much as they can. All those rotten blogs out there no more than helping manufacturers to SELL their gear and who shut down those who voice the truth. EOSHD thanks for being a decent sounding board. This new camera will be perfect for many with super 16mm lenses and those above. Today the world of film making CHANGED. Now maybe we might see those locked out like the working classes bring in some much needed ORIGINALITY and fashion to a world dominated by those looking after there own interests. Film is power too. The power to change perception and hearts and minds. Bring it on!

Oops sorry didnt see camera boy's got in a thread first. Looks like Black magic are going to make a fortune!

http://philipbloom.net/2012/04/16/blackmagic/

I guess when they plan the camera they want the best specs and develop the best sensors and then cripple down for the indie and consumer markets as well as creating an air of credibility to begin with.

Looks to me like the canon c500 could well put Red out of business. oOER.

I can't afford a canon c300 or a sony f3 or even a sony fs700 but I can afford a GH2 SO I guess that the cat is out of the bag. We can make great films on £700 with a GH2 but its frustrating not being able to be a part of the digital revolution and have a nice affordable large sensor camera with ND filters and 10 bit 4,2,2 out. Its a shame manufacturers feel they have to protect their business by keeping us (Consumers) out while ignoring the fact we can do it with workarounds already. Panasonic bought out the AF101 which also shows THEY can make a consumer priced camera. So why don't they give us a basic 25mb codec with 10bit SDI out, ND filters and SLOG between £3000 to £7000? A really elephant in the room sized gap. I think its clear to most why consumers are left out in the cold. Some will say that's business. Maybe it is. I say business should serve the people and be beneficial to all. Not the people forced to serve business as we seem to have today.