stephen

Most of my speculations in another theme turned out to be true. 🙂 Blackmagic joins L Mount and produces it's first FF cinema camera. Price is good but form factor is disappointing. Still prefer Panasonic S1/S5/S5II + BM Video Assist 5 12G for BRAW video. Much more versatile combo.

Good news for people shooting with L Mount cameras ! Samyang has some good to great lenses which are typically cheaper than Sigma or lenses produced by camera manufactures.

For those who are interested in using smartphones as video cameras, check motioncam and Sebastian Merca's youtube channels. There are some great examples and also comparisons with BMPCC 4K and Panasonic S1H. And you can download source file too ! I downloaded one clip shot by Sebastian Merca at night (challenging lighting) on Samsung S22 Ultra main camera and applied some fine grain, film emulsion and blooming with Dehancer plugin. Total 15 min. of work. Here is the result (file in the link will stay for few weeks, then it will be gone): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/15blxv9w_8nsOdTWgZbLKsCwTkVi9f1Bm?usp=sharing and here is the original with download link to a much bigger Prores source file https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1_TSYpYFBU For me picture quality is better than iPhone 13/14. I would say much better. Also shot few clips at 18 fps on my Samsung S10+. I am impressed ! This year some flagship Android phones from Xiaomi, Oppo and Vivo are with 1 inch main camera sensor size and the other cameras are with bigger sensors too. According to some initial reports and reviews on Vivo X90 + all 4 cameras are available to motioncam application and can shoot at 60fps with just few dropped frames. Same for Xiaomi 13 Ultra and Pro although on main camera 60fps are only at 4K DCI aspect ratio. At 24 and 30 fps you can shoot at 4:3 or so called open gate. Keep in mind this is not my personal experience, just what I read in forums and what people testing those devices report on youtube. Those smartphones for me are the Super 16 digital cameras of the year not EOS M in crop mode. Downside are tiny lenses and 23mm equivalent focal length on main camera. One solution would be to crop in post 4000:1.5=2666 to get to 35mm which is much better focal length. Still decent resolution and with Davinci Resolve Super Scale to 4K picture will look very good IMHO. For smartphones where cameras are in circular block like Xiaomi 13 Ultra and Vivo X90+ there are special cases where filter can be attached (screwed), similar to the Xiaomi 13 Ultra photo case which takes 67mm filters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UVQ5jK-Ygw For all other phones look at third parties solution like smallrig. They have universal cages where in similar fashion you can use regular circular ND or VariND filters on top of the camera block. Like this one: https://www.smallrig.com/SmallRig-MagEase-Magnetic-1-4-Effect-Black-Mist-Filter-Kit-52mm-4217.html

What we get in export with adjustment layer is IMHO intended behavior. An alternative to adjustment layer for color grading that many prefer are Davinci Resolve group or remote grade functionalities. Grouping clips from one camera and then using Group Pre-Clip or Group Post-Clip instead of adjustment layer will give the same result and functionality as adjustment clip, while exported individual clips will all have color grade for the specific group in Group Pre-Clip or Group Post-Clip all applied. Exactly the way zerocool22 wants it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtXuabX-ims Before submitting a request to Blackmagic it makes sense to try clip grouping functionality. IMHO it is what zerocool22 wants to achieve in export while workflow changes will be minimal.

Did a test and IMHO it works correctly. If I click on Render Timeline Effects checkbox for the export it will export all clips that are under adjustment layer as one clip with color grade coming from this layer applied, then individual clips as separate files but without the color grade from the adjustment layer. No compound clip or anything else was used. Will try with several adjustment layers on the timeline Yes it works also with several adjustment layers one after another on the timeline.

Instead of using adjustment layer for color grading use/switch to timeline in color panel. You can apply color grading and everything else with nodes on individual clips but also exactly the same way on all clips in the timeline by simply choosing one or the other. This is how I typically do it when would like to apply a color grade for all clips and this is in general one of the ways to do it. Saw this from a Hollywood/Company 3 colorist 🙂

According to same John Brawley there is no licensing cost for any camera manufacturer to implement BRAW recording internally, it is not just for post processing. There is a cost however in development, to put all those algorithms in the processor chip. To my knowledge processor chip development is quite costly. Companies are using one chip for all of their models and for several years in order to be able to pay for this development.

By the way there is a long thread on BM forums on the subject started in January this year. Last post from John Brawley explains in details why Blackmagic would not go or even cannot go with Sony E mount. Previous posts from him explain what L mount alliance is and how it differs from m43 one, why developing FF camera using EF mount doesn't make sense for BM, etc. He basically makes the same argument in details that L mount is the one that makes sense for BM. Worth reading for those who are interested: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=173840&start=450 John Brawley of course is not BM but he has a good relationship with the company. I doubt he knows something from inside but his argumentation IMHO is solid

BRAW codec is already open standard. Open Standard and Free to Download Cross platform and license free! Why ? I have no idea, you have to ask Blackmagic how their business works 🙂 L mount 20mm Flange focal distance is not a lot but if you don't have to put a shutter there, and have a bigger camera body then maybe it would be enough to squeeze an ND filter. Sony proved already that it is possible. This is one of the ways for Blackmagic to differentiate from hybrid cameras. They already did it in a simplistic way in BMPCC 6K Pro. A more compact and sophisticated ND filter solution is maybe not out of reach for them. Tracking auto focus and IBIS, no, this would be Panasonic territory and too expensive for Blackmagic to achieve.

Exactly ! If you are at Blackmagic and have to make a decision, which mount would you choose ? Market pushes toward FF, this is clear. Company has to make a move in this direction if it wants to stay relevant. L Mount seemed to me like a logical move, Kye gave much more detailed argumentation that I had in my head 🙂 Yes Blackmagic is competitor for Panasonic but so are Sony and Canon. Blackmagic carved a niche for themself. BMPCC 4K was selling well alongside GH5, GH6, GH5S and again as Kye rightfully noted: " Panasonic make hybrid MILCs and BM make cinema cameras." So they have slightly different niches. I don't know, it just makes sense to me and wanted to share those rumors with all of you. Would be happy to see Blackmagic go in this direction.

In a discussion some time ago on this forum argued that Blackmagic camera development should go into : - full frame camera - a mirrorless mount and best candidate would be L Mount. According to some rumors, it is exactly what is going to happen till end of 2023. I am happy with Panasonic and out of camera game for quite some time but still would be nice to see what Blackmagic has to offer. If rumors are true, L Mount alliance will be stronger and my investment in some L mount lenses seems like a longer lasting move. 🙂 If Blackmagic wants to sell Full Frame L mount camera they have to offer some extra features over current generation of Lumix cameras. BRAW internal is obvious one. Maybe internal ND filters as extra bonus feature would be another one ? https://www.l-rumors.com/soon-blackmagic-will-announce-their-first-l-mount-cine-camera/

@TomTheDP - You have high standards 🙂 If you shoot with Alexa and Red and work with footage having highest image quality it is understandable you would want this in hybrid cameras too. I can see your point now. Still IMHO high image quality can't be attributed to one single parameter as color depth. Red Komodo raw is still 16bit but you didn't like it. Having in mind how big Alexa and Red cameras are with lots of electronics and cooling inside, am not sure this all can be squeezed in small hybrid camera body. Having experience with Canon RAW again am not sure it can reach the high standards of Alexa or Red image quality. Moved away from Canon 5D to BMPCC 4K + monitor and now to Panasonic S5 with or without external Recorder. I like image quality from Panasonic S5 + BRAW more than Canon 5D ML Raw. Same weight but easier to shoot with too. Yes Canon 5D Mark III default colors have some attractive mojo in some scenes, not all. Have deficiencies too. That's me other people may like Canon 5D more. @Attila Bakos - Will try again. Maybe I am not doing something right. This is another problem with ML Raw - steep learning curve, spending lots of time on forums in order to understand all details and latest changes. Will not return or shoot in crop mode, that's for sure. It's game over for me. Just curious to check and see.

Just trying to explain in a friendly conversation why IMHO we don't see 14 bit video in hybrid cameras. Image quality is a process and camera is just a part of this process. Even if we concentrate only on camera IMHO it would be wrong to attribute image quality of a sensor/camera to a single parameter as 14bit color. It's a complex thing. Correct me if I am wrong but according to this page ARRI RAW is 12bit https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/learn-help-camera-system/pre-postproduction/file-formats-data-handling/arriraw-faq#accordion-292364 while Red RAW is 16 bit - https://www.red.com/power-of-red-redcode Does it mean then that 16 bit Red RAW image quality or Canon 5D Mark III with it's 14 bit color are superior to Arri ? Image quality is different even among Red Cameras. Isn't it ? Red Komodo then is capable of 16bit image. For me this is price point that many can afford. Wanted to point out also that economics play a significant role in choice of cameras and of course cameras capabilities. For me capabilities vs price when comparing 2000$ cameras with 20000$ or more cameras are hugely in favor of the lower price point cameras. You get ~ 90 or more percent of the image quality for 1/10 or less of the price. Nothing to complain about here. Of course progress thankfully will not stop and agree that 8K was not the right direction for hybrid camera to go. It was the easiest to achieve and market. I wish to see more cameras with smaller rolling shutter, internal BRAW or ProRes RAW and integrated in camera ND filters more than anything else. Blind tests are some sort of reality check, far from ideal or strictly scientific but still reality check. So when we give certain qualifications of better or worst we need some sort of starting point for comparison that most can agree on, otherwise it is subjective. Thankfully we have now great cameras to work with at any price point and if you shoot something interesting and engaging with your Panasonic S1, image quality will not be the decisive factor whether people will like it or not. Nobody and I mean NOBODY will come after and say: "Nice movie but I wish colors were better". It is always good to have this perspective when we dream or wish for new cool tools 🙂

@Attila Bakos - Yes latest Danne build. I don't see improvements in bit rate, mostly in stability. Don't see from where this improvement in bit rate will come. 2-4 years ago ML team managed to overclock SD cards improving writing speed from 25-30Mb to 65Mb. Bit rate on 5D Mark III is now 80-85Gb with a good CF card + 65 Gb from SD card = 150Gb/s Didn't heard of any major development that would break this mark. As said we have this speed for at least 2-3 years. Yes at 1080p resolution RAW video, camera is quite nice to work with, not at 1.6 or closer to this crop modes. Tried hard to solve the framing problem using external optical viewfinder or even a smartphone as a second camera/screen. It was always pain in the neck. 10 years ago Canon ML RAW video hack was a breakthrough, now when we have blackmagic pocket 4K and 6K, can't find any reason to shoot with Canon 5K Mark III in crop mode. Blackmagic cameras have better dynamic range and they keep it trough all ISO range, very good rolling shutter,much easier to use, better monitoring capabilities, reliability. Kept 5D as a memory of the DSLR era and possibly some personal projects at 1080p but so far didn't shot any. Don't want to put down ML team, they did and still do a great job, I am grateful for their time and work, but have to admit and live to reality. What I've found in my personal experience happens for all video/film productions. Camera cost is only a small and often not a major part of film/video production budget. If one camera is few hundred bucks less expensive than another one but you spend much more time and efforts in post production or when shooting, at the end the less expensive camera will cost you much more. This is even more evident in mid to high end movie/video productions. It is then well understandable why TV series are shot on Alexa but at ProRes 4:2:2. At the end nobody other than probably few professionals will ever notice the small difference in image quality. Again we tend to overestimate value of image quality while in reality nobody from the non pro large audience will notice it. If for you Canon 5D Mark III RAW video image looks good, great use it, just do not kid yourself it is somehow superior to the rest of modern cameras, while in measurable parameters like dynamic range and rolling shutter it is clearly inferior and for the large audience it really doesn't matter. @TomTheDP - I wouldn't say slim, the Magic Lantern community was pretty large It is. Just check how many times is downloaded latest Danne's build or MLV App. 2-3 thousands. And 90% to 95% of the people will shoot a few test clips and that's it. Few will use it for small and personal projects as Zeek, and even less for commercial / production projects. Compare this to how many BM, Canon, Panasonic, Sony cameras are sold and used each year. Unless somebody can prove in blind test even among relatively small circle of professionals that 14bit is better compared to 12 bit or even correctly recognized will consider it purely subjective. All tests that I've seen and even participated in indicate the opposite. A local shop did a test with Sony A7 series cameras in their early days. They've shot 10 pictures with different subjects and lighting conditions with Canon, Nikon and Sony A7 12bit compressed format. All 3 cameras were full frame. On screen and on print Canon and Nikon owners were not able to distinguish or guess which pictures were shot with their beloved cameras which they will passionately claim in forums have superior 14bit or whatever colors 🙂 It was completely random. We had some 11-12 years ago Great Zakuto shootout, this one here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZjIz8sB2vg) and so on 🙂

How do you shoot at 3.5K in 14 bit color ? 3520x1740 at 14bit gives me just few seconds, 3520x1740 at 12bit is from 15 sec to 1-2 minutes. Have to drop to 10bit in order to get closer to continuous. And this is with global draw off. With global draw on it is even worst. Canon 5D Mark III raw video in crop mode for me is PRACTICALLY UNUSABLE: - there is no live view framing, you can't see on a monitor of even the tiny screen what you shoot - rolling shutter is more than 33 ms - camera is unreliable, had many freezes and you don't know if your recording is going to stop and especially when it is going to stop. - as your ISO increases your dynamic range and color palette decrease - software hack is always in development and movement, you don't know what bug your are going to hit and when Tried many times to use it in crop mode and always ended in frustration. 1080p is the best, can have external monitor and proper framing, reliable, simple, 35mm lens has the same angle of view as on full frame. Use super scale in Resolve or Video Enhance AI to upscale to 4K and it is good enough. There you can shoot in 14 bits no problem. Why we don't see 14bit video in hybrid cameras ? Simple answer is: - no demand - just look how many good video in RAW shot with Canon 5D Mark III hack are on youtube. For more than 12 years. Interest and usage are slim. - still some challenges to shoot and process such a massive amount of data. I know for a fact that in my (relatively small) country TV series are shot on Arri Alexa not in RAW but on Prores 4:2:2. Without compression very few people or companies are willing to deal with RAW video. BRAW or ProRes RAW, Red RAW - yes no problem. Cinema DNG files even with lossless compression - few are willing to deal with data volume and workflow that comes with it. I honestly doubt that anybody can see the difference between 14 and 12 bit color, especially on the monitors and screens we are using. I tested it on Canon 5D Mark III some time ago and couldn't. 14bit vs 12 bit, color science when related to RAW video and even in 10bit 4:2:2 - all this is purely subjective. All those claims of superiority falls apart when doing a blind test. Can give as example several published on internet tests. I tried recently iPhone 14 for video after seeing several people on youtube recommending it. Shot on same location and lighting condition where some time ago shot a small personal project / clip with Canon 5d Mark III in RAW video crop mode. Yes you can't switch off sharpening, noise reduction and tone mapping for better dynamic range on iPhone but Oh boy how easy it was to get great picture quality, how good image stabilization was. Apply some grain and film emulation using dehancer and it is good enough. Efforts vs results comparable to Canon 5D Mark III are 100% on iPhone side. I am thinking seriously to get one of those new Android smartphones with 1'' sensor like Vivo X90 Pro Plus and shoot raw video on a smartphone for personal projects. It can do 4K 60p RAW and I believe this is only in 10bit DNG. Apply some grain, film emulation in dehancer and image look gorgeous to me. It is a lot easier than Canon 5D Mark III and it the end results will be equally impressive if not better. And this camera is with you all the time 🙂 Whole history of photography is a move toward ease of use and convenience once certain acceptable image quality has been achieved. Image quality by the way matters mostly to us, people who shoot not to the people and wide audience who will watch it. That's also a proven fact we should never forget.

@FHDcrew Have 3 bags - Mantona bought from Amazon - can fit there S5 with cage + top handle + video assist + some lenses - Vanguard BIIN 25 - https://www.amazon.com/Vanguard-BIIN-25-Shoulder-Camera/dp/B005LUL0CQ?th=1 can fit there S5 + Video Assist 5'' 12G + 3 lenses. Video Assist mounted on the hot shoe with HDMI cable + 2 NP-F small batteries can fit as a whole piece. Or Video Assist can be detached from the camera. When not shooting it will stay on its bottom part with screen to the side wall of the back and vents on top. Almost never shoot with Video Assist in this position. Usually will turn it on its back at the bottom of the bag. This way can keep the bag open and still peek from time to time to the screen. In general prefer to shoot with Video Assist on top of the camera and use it as a monitor too. Only when for some reasons want to keep low profile and not draw attention will leave it in the bag. Usually my takes are not more than 1-2 min and Video Assists stays relatively cool. It still blows some hot air but metal frame and good ventilation helps to keep it from becoming too hot. In the few occasions that used it this way it never became too hot. Had Ninja V for few months before buying Video Assist. From memories Ninja V is hotter than Video Assist and fan is louder. Saw on youtube somebody claiming the same. IMHO there are many bags with similar to Vanguard BIIN 25 dimensions that can be used.

@Walter H - Yes can post some clips shot with Paansonic S1/S5 + BM Video Assist. Have many but the best would be to make some new test shots - one using internal 10bit 4:2:2 recording and same scene using BRAW and Video Assist. It would be easier for you to see the difference and decide if external recording is worth for you. Just give me a 7-8 days and I'll do the tests and upload source files on google drive or something similar and post the links here.

I took this path more than a year ago for several reasons. 1. BRAW. Using BMPCC 4K realized how good BRAW is - various degree of compression and file size - ability to adjust white balance - great support in Davinci Resolve, - smooth playback, scrubbing and editing One of the main reason I've choose Panasonic, instead of Sony or Canon was support of external BRAW recording. Only Panasonic and Nikon cameras had it. But Panasonic support is better as it gives you 6K and no line skipping, auto focus was not a problem for me because can use manual focus for 100% of what I shoot The other reason was price. Even then Panasonic S5 almost new from the box but second hand costed me 1100 Euro. Cheaper than BMPCC 4K which new came at 1400 Euro. If we add speedbooster and monitor price is also pretty much comparable to Panasonic S5 + Video Assist 2. BMPCC 4K is great but it's difficult to shoot without external monitor. Maybe it's just me but without a good 1500+ nits monitor which sits at 45 to 90 degree to the top of the camera or camera + cage + top handle it was really difficult and painful to shoot. In general I find that the most convenient, practical and useful setup for professional or serious shoots is camera + cage + top handle + monitor. It adds weight which is good for stability and it makes shooting so much easier. If we add the monitor to BMPCC 4K, then in terms and weight and size Panasonic S5 + BM Video Assist, suddenly became almost identical to BMPCC + monitor and even more compact in terms of length. Panasonic S5 can be used on most gimbals, BMPCC 4K on just a few. If I stayed only with BMPCC 4K had to buy a new gimbal. Sometimes it is great to be able to shoot with one small camera and lens, similar to the reporter style of Henri Cartier-Bresson. But BMPCC 4K is not good at this. It lacks EVF and is too big in length. Panasonic S5 on the other hand is. For those shoots I can skip the recorder and use 10bit 4:2:2 internal codec which is also very good or simply put the recorder in a bag and have a small and tiny HDMI cable hanging on the side. 3. BMPCC 4K sensor size. I used Metabones speedbooster x0.64 and in term of DOF and bokeh this camera and setup were great. However crop factor is kind of weird - 1.21, can't use my primes lens sets on their specific focal length. No big deal but still kind of problematic. With Panasonic S5 any vintage lens has exactly the same focal length / angle degree it was designed for. Panasonic S5 + BM Video Assist 5'' 12G solves most of BMPCC 4K shortcomings like poor battery life, lack of EVF, IBIS and smaller sensor size. Plus it is a great photo camera on it's own. Plus it could be used without BM Video Assist 5'' and will still give great image quality. Shortcomings of Panasonic S5 + Video Assist: Micro HDMI, always kind of problematic, needs special attention and mini cage with a clamp to hold it on place or micro HDMI to HDMI adapter clamped to a cage as well. You need a bigger bag in order to be able to put camera and recorder together as one piece but same is true for BMPCC 4K + monitor. You have to start / stop two different devices. In general I find S5 + BM Video Assist to be more convenient and enjoyable camera setup than BMPCC 4K + monitor + speedbooster. New S5 II solves the micro HDMI port problem and adds tracking auto focus. Can we call it cinema camera ? Yes, with BRAW it certainly is capable to deliver high picture quality.

BMPCC 4K in smaller more compact body with tilt adjustable LCD.

HIDDEN S5ii Feature NOBODY is Talking About! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxZdTozSzcI Panasonic also posted a message that preorders and demand for S5 II is way bigger than estimated and cameras will be in short supply for some time.

35mm Already use it for 75% of all shots

Do Panasonic S5 II has the 200$ option for external RAW video ? Is BRAW supported as external RAW video format ? It should be as all current models have it. Just want a clarification as all other reviewers talk about ProRes and ProRes RAW as external video option for Panasonic S5 II X model

According to CVP's review Panasonic S5 II PDAF auto focus in video is still behind Sony and Canon. According to them auto focus with Sigma MC21 + Canon EF lenses is no different than auto focus with native lenses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VPQoWRS0l4

For me, the most important thing is that Panasonic continues to invest in their FF bodies, improve their functionality and have plans to stay in photo / hybrids business. That alone is no small feat with heavy weights like Canon and Sony on the side and constantly shrinking sales. At one point in time started to doubt my investment in 3 Sigma L mount lenses and 2 Panasonic FF bodies. Not anymore 😀 They solved a major bottleneck and hopefully their bodies and L Mount will get more sales and popularity. Sigma and Leica for sure will follow and this gives L mount much more chances to survive and even thrive in this very difficult business. For my type of work, the lack of tracking AF for video has never been an issue or I wouldn't have invested into the system 😀 However PDAF + some other improvements that S5 II has are worthy for an upgrade - PDAF and tracking video AF - nice to have - Full HDMI port - Improved viewfinder - better compatibility with Canon EOS mount lenses. Richard Wong also says that Sigma MC21 + Canon EF lenses = continuous video auto focus with Lumix S5II - There is some confusion will regular Panasonic S5 II get external RAW video recording with additional 200$ upgrade. Some places and reviewers say yes, others say no. Hopefully Panasonic would keep this as paid option available for the S5 II too and not only for S5 II X. Hopefully they also keep BRAW option for external recording too. Was surprised to see so much youtubers in Tokyo and most of them were never into Panasonic system. No doubt this is a massive advertising campaign with loaner bodies and lenses, etc.. Another good sign that Panasonic makes all the efforts to stay relevant in this very difficult business.

We know that DJI LIDAR module will work with cameras and without the need of RS 3 gimbal. Their module however still needs an external motor and smartphone for the application to move / focus the lens. Maybe Panasonic will demo a new camera where LIDAR will focus the lens internally without the need of external motor and smartphone. Just a speculation.