douglaurent

​dude, i won't explain all those things for a fourth time. after reading andrews article and all the XC10 canon specs in fact you already had 5 chances to realize that this is not a drone camera. if you think it is, because you only shoot in no windy places and between mid and tele range, then go ahead and buy this item. if this thread didnt make you, but a lot of other potential customers think more critically about canon's product strategies, my only intention to write here has been successful.

i am not sad when people are confused because that seems to mean less competition. it's just sad that canon will continue with their poliitics if too many consumers buy all the bullshit stories and lame products that might be an excuse for a 5D4 not having 4k. the full frame equivalent of the XC10 plus some stabilization and framing means it starts at 50mm. of course you can do great aerials at 50mm and even 100mm, but who can work with a drone camera that can not do wide angle at all? of course an action sports shooter will do some great shots with a 24-70mm zoom, but if he was limited to one fixed lens only, he would decide on a 150-600mm zoom. and if your drone camera XC10 doesn't cover the 15-35mm full frame range at all, it's just not a specialized drone camera. that should be pretty easy to recognize!

​droidworx obviously has small drones that claim they can carry an epic. if your budget is limited to an even smaller low budget drone, you are obviously not a pro drone shooter or the project budgets don't seem to require pro results. you obviously also didn't use the XC10 yourself on a drone. what obviously can be everyone's conclusion after reading the XC10's specs is, that after stabilization and framing the camera's angle starts at 50mm full frame equivalency. any aerial shooter knows that mid- to tele ranges are difficult to handle. so a drone shooter that says he will NEVER need the option for shooting 15-40mm and is perfectly happy with ONLY receiving 40-400mm from the camera is a pretty funny person. that's comparable to an action sports shooter that likes a new canon camera with a range limited to 15-70mm, when everybody else will be shooting 150-600mm. so obviously the XC10 is not a suitable drone product, unless you use a second camera like a GH4 for wide angle, which means the XC10 is obsolete and you can also shoot mid- to tele range with the GH4. let the XC10 be a nice product for a number of things, it's definitely not a logical drone camera!!!

​just rent an epic and strip it down to its minimum weight, then shoot in 6k or 5k 100fps if you want to deliver top standard in 4k. all other 4k 30fps cameras (especially 40mm full frame equivalent wide) will deliver pretty limited results anyway after post and stabilization. this is why i would choose a gh4 with dedicated lens or a gopro 4 when my epics are not available, as they totally do the job and are much cheaper (gopro) or much more versatile (gh4). of course you can feel free to buy a XC10 for your drone work. just never complain about this decision later, when all facts have been so clear upfront.

two or three years ago, this would have been a nice product. one year after the AX100, GH4, FZ1000, LX100 etc and especially with clearer sight on canon's overall profit-oriented product strategy plus their own comments, it is simply disappointing. whoever is choosing the XC10 as main drone camera clearly does not make the best decision.

​as far as i can see it, a gopro 4 is still a much better 4k drone camera than the XC10, as it is really light, has wide angle and better remote features. the size and weight of the XC10 are in a league where you need drones in the size that can already carry a stripped down epic. a gh4 would be a much better drone choice as well.

​i indeed own the AX100 since day one and it is a nice side toy, which makes the XC10 even more useless. canon does seem to present the XC10 to the dslr/cinema audience, not the camcorder world, which makes it look like an excuse for not adding 4k or other stuff like focus peaking in cheaper dslrs or cinema products. canon is clearly not thinking about their customers and more about short term profits, while this might cost them longterm profits. canon needs to realize that users are aware of that. whoever likes and buys the XC10: congrats. but you also could have bought the XC10 a year ago.

usually i only comment on this forum when i disagree with andrew, otherwise i am positive +1. but reading a historically stupid canon executive statement like "we wanted to reduce weight and costs, so we added a non-detachable superzoom lens" makes me write about canon's future strategy. clearly they want avoid to release one camera that includes all relevant features we need for as long as possible and make us use 2-3 cameras at the same time, and buy 2-5 more cameras in the next 3-10 years until we finally see a full frame body with 4k 60fps, swivel screen with focus peaking etc. that's their good right. unfortunately for canon this means a multi camera-setup that can do all from high video resolution, high frame rates, extreme lowlight, pro video features, high photo resolution, compact size might not include one single canon product: this setup right now would be a red epic, a sony a7s, a panasonic gh4 and a nikon d810. i fear that will not change until 2018, as canon will either make new products like a c300/c500 II far too expensive, or limit features like in the coming 5d4 products. my personal next hopes are on a gh5 with 4k 60fps.

the future product upgrade path most likely will be: C300 2: 4K but only 30fps and other limits C500 2: 4K and full options 1DC 2: might never come. 4K and some video improvements will be part of a 1DX 2 in later 2016. 5D4: will be the first cheap dslr that features 4K, but with limitations compared to the 1DC. this means again: you can always get any feature from canon in their products, but you will not get all features for a cheap price or in one product.

regarding the original topic: i already had more than a $4000 price drop on the 1DC, as i bought the camera in january 2013 and had the tax writeoff for it. the pure list price doesnt mean anything, it's always important when you buy, what you do with it, and what you can write off etc etc. if you bought a lamborghini countach for 150.000 25 years ago and can now sell it for 400.000, it wasn't an expensive car.

i would have bought 3 of these 50MP cameras if it had 4K. now thanks canon, i will buy ZERO. and if the 5D4 comes out with 4K and does not top the 1DC or A7s, and has no swivel screen or focus peaking (although this is the 5D "video" model version), i will buy zero as well. too bad their stupid cinema department is holding down everything in limiting the DSLR products. if they would bring all features into ONE camera product, they could sell record numbers and be the kings again like in 2008. now it seems they will lose more and more market share because nobdy needs a canon camera body anymore. for a pure 50MP photo camera i'd buy medium format.

great film and great report that is absolutely correct. only things i can add is that the best shogun mount (after testing a lot) on the 1DC & A7S seems to be the "Manfrotto 492LCD Mini Ball Head with Hot Shoe Mount". and it looks like if shogun recordings work with regular cheaper harddrives as well, and you don't even need SSDs.

after some more testing with andrew's hints, the A7S indeed can be less noisy than the 1DC in the range between ISO 25.000 and 200.000. but thats a range that still is so noisy in the A7S, that i don't know which commercial work would make sense to include this. when it comes to the relevant ISOs of 3200 and 6400 that most people can't use on cameras like the GH4, both the A7S and 1DC are really better, but not much different from each other. so the A7S with its extreme ISO range advantage is like all other facts to the 1DC - you will always find a camera which is cheaper, smaller, with more photo megapixels etc. but all those cameras have at least one significant less feature. a pentax 645z or nikon d810 doesnt shoot 4k. a red camera or gh4 isnt made for lowlight. an a7s is no real usable pro photo camera. this makes the 1DC the best all in one package which masters all situations pretty good, especially in combination with a top monitor that has focus peaking. probably the 5D4 has 4K video, but no canon log. and probably the 50MP canon in 2015 does not have good 4K video at all. a C300/2 might have great 4K, but will be expensive and is no photo camera. so it's not unlikely that by the end of 2015, the 1DC still is the best all in one tool at least from canon. if nikon brings a competitor like a D4 with 4K, i doubt it would have a swivel screen and focus peaking and will be extremely better than a 1DC. only 4K60p would do that. the medium format companies seem to be a few years away from 4K video. the sony A7 update cameras might not include an all in one model. the list can go on, but right now there is no "one camera for everything" in sight. this is why canon can justify a pretty high price for the current "all in one" leader 1DC at the moment.

​as long as a source like EOSHD delivers free content, content about the right topics and also mostly helpful, interesting and constructive details, i don't mind even if the blog owner is making 100 grand a month. there are sources like print magazines that cost 5-10 euros and might be biased more through much bigger financial issues concerning ads. there are guys like laforet or hurlbut who turned their blogs into money making machines and still do only deliver their personal view. other bloggers only come up with interesting things randomly or come from the photo world. this is why among billions of pages on the net, EOSHD is one of the very rare sites where you can get closest to what you really want to know. the amount of time needed to run such a blog might be enourmous, so i think the one who does this job deserves all money and fame he can get. the bigger problem on this planet are lazy passive people, not busy people who create and think.

​indeed 5k pounds / 6400 euros / 7.800 USD is a very good price for the 1DC. this most likely means that even if you sell it in 200 days, you can find somebody who pays the same. i have calculated in selling for no less than 7000 euros. right now the 1DC is still the best all-in-one camera when it comes to combining photo and 4k video, although each single aspect might be topped by other cameras. combined with a shogun the 1DC is a lot of fun, especially for a one man team. even better, the 1.3x crop and the new tamron 16-300 lens made it possible to film with longest zoom range that there ever was in one lens on a DSLR, INCLUDING wide angle. in 4K video mode, the 16-300 can be used from 18mm on, which makes it nearly like a 23-390mm lens that tops all 28-300 full frame zooms out there. stopped down the tamron sharpness is okay, and the 1DC allows you to raise ISO6400 without a problem as well for it. combined with the comfort of a top monitor and the right skills you can shoot a complete and very good looking 4k documentary with one piece in your hands (1DC+16-300+Shogun). connect an external mic to the shogun and add a nice light carbon tripod with a good small sachtler or vinten head, you pay 10.000 euros and have a super fun, very fast and still high quality filming combination for a one man shooter (of course more lenses and extra people would help!).

​instead of discussing all the details behind the pros and cons of old cameras again, we should see this within a historical timeline, as technology is always evolving: 2013/1 - 2014/6: no 4k dslr competitor for the canon 1DC available 2014/6 - 2014/12: GH4 adds strong alternative, although it is no lowlight or fullframe option 2014/12 - 2015: shogun makes the sony A7S a strong 1DC competitor (plus other small 4K cameras with limitations are on the market) 2015: canon will release a 5D4, C300/2 and 50MP DSLR, probably all with 4K video. sony might bring an A7S2 with internal stabilizer, nikon might enter the 4K market, panasonic release a GH5 and more brands will come up with probaly positively surprising 4K video products. 2016/1: all cameras we are using now in 2014/12 are already topped by better products, while 1080p monitors/recordes like the shogun are in common use and have more and cheaper competitors. the future seems to be bright. for now: if tests can show a clear outstanding strength of the A7S in comparison, i would be very happy! in fact i would buy a 200 euro casio camera tomorrow and use that if it tops the 1DC. unless the cheaper camera prices don't kill the imaging industry, affordable prices are always great. the time when the imaging industry is near dead is also probably the time when finally cameras can last for 10 years again.

​i didn't start the 1DC / A7S discussion, it was the blog owner who said until yesterday that the A7S is a 25:0 winner. now indeed the shogun marks a relevant point for the A7S, because only since then the A7S is a 4k camera and comparable to a 1DC, GH4 or any other camera you still might be able to film with professionally in 5 years. without the shogun, in 2013 and 2014 a 1DC had no competitor because there was no lowlight 4k fullframe camera out there. now thanks to the shogun, in 2015 many users will have a great new cheap 1DC alternative thanks to the shogun. and all 1DC users have a much better camera thanks to the shogun as well including flexible screen and focus peaking. i just wish it would be mentioned by the blow owner that we have a 25:25 result here between the two cameras, and not 25:0. otherwise each and every new test of new products can mean again that there are dozens of facts who are forgotten, which makes such internet resources useless and implies everything has to be bought and tested on your own.

​3000 euros loss for 900 days with a 1dc is a better daily money ratio than 1000 euros loss for 200 days with an a7s+shogun. my 1dc price arguments are also just one example, why nearly all of the 25 points mentioned in this forum why the a7s is so much better do have tons of completely different point of views. so it is great to have a blog that takes care of the right topics, and also goes in depth and detail of products, but then occasionally forgets a lot of facts. this is a general problem of worldwide media, which brought journalism to its worst state ever through the creative freedom and financial pressure caused by the internet. most things you read are either black or white, but hardly ever unbiased or just made purely for the benefit of the reader.

​probably it would make sense to wait until the end of january 2015 for a final shogun evaluation, when the firmware does include fixes and full features vor a7s, gh4 etc. it's possible to see a 5d4, a7s2, gh5 and maybe an even more attractive new camera in 2015 - that also might include a swivel screen with focus peaking, noiseless lowlight and internal 4k recording. theoretically, selling the a7s and shogun for a new camera will then make you lose app 1000 euros, and this system has cost you 5 euros per day. at the same time a canon 1dc user who bought it in january 2013 like me will lose 3000 euros from its new paid price, which makes it app 3.30 euros per day. plus: the canon lowlight full frame 4k camera could have been used 2 years longer in productions than the sony product, giving it a huge historical advantage artistically and incomewise. there are many more facts that make a product which is cheaper at first look might not be cheaper at all, when looking at all these new smaller 4k camera systems. this starts with VAT: nobody who works professionally does have to pay that amount in reality. an a7s plus shogun (so the sony can do 4k) does cost 3600 euros plus VAT, the canon 1dc does cost 8000 euros plus VAT. that roughly makes the canon a 2.3x more expensive 4k camera, not a 5x more expensive camera. there are also tax write off effects. if you pay 45% taxes like me, the difference between the a7s and 1dc again becomes much more narrow. if you rent out a camera system that did cost much more, it's also more likely you will earn more through it. this is why a red epic does bring at least 10x more than a 5d3, which - at least for me - makes an expensive camera much more attractive, even if film clients don't require it. instead of meeting rent clients 10x, i only have to meet them 2x when handing out a red to make the same amount of money. if you take ALL financial and longterm aspects into account, the conclusion is: the a7s is not as cheap as it looks, and the 1dc is not as expensive as it looks. and the shogun as well is not expensive, especially if you use it with an a7s that is no 4k camera without it.

​the fair price current calculation is, if you see the value in your books, and the features you get: --- sony a7s + shogun (so it can do 4k) = costs 4.000 euros, after resale you lose 1.000 euros at the moment --- canon 1dc + top non-recording monitor (for peaking and flexible screen) = costs 10.000 euros, after resale you lose 3.000 euro at the moment. this means with a 1dc you only pay an extra 2.000 euros on top, but have a pro photo cam as benefit and there's no need to switch to a sony mount! i usually never participate in any internet discussion, but in this case i had to, as i never read any film blog in the last 8 years that was so negative about one product or company. at the same time, when someone would have asked me "you can only pick one camera for the rest of your life and you can choose from all, what would it be?", in the last two years it would always have been the 1dc, for dozens of good reasons and hard facts that - like the price discussion - top the "25 reasons why the a7s is better list". nevertheless we will do more tests here with the a7s and follow all advices regarding a better a7s performance, although your advice includes "but in grade you have to...". of course as a user first i want to see in comparison what comes out of the cameras directly, and not how they perform when one is treated privileged in post.

​in the test both cameras have been at iso 6400, f4, 1/50, in their best s-log mode, shot with an otus 55 and the results seem to be equally bright. even when i make the 1dc much brighter in post it still has less noise. 1dc noise reduction internally even has been turned off, while the a7s seems to have a permanent high iso noise reduction (which might explain why the results checked on large screens or crops often look a bit less detailed). with the advice you describe above we would have to test a million different combinations to be fair. if someone gives me a detailed comparison and workflow how i can get a similar sharp, but significantly less noisy image out of the a7s when it comes to the iso range of 3200-12800, i pay him 500 euros. right now, other than the price, the combination of 1dc and shogun only has the lack of 4k60p and a shogun firmware update. other than that i wouldnt trade it - and if you give a shogun and both cameras to 100 filmmakers and tell them: use it for a month, then you can keep one of the cameras for free (but cant resell), i am pretty sure that 95% would keep the 1dc.

another frame grab from the test videos, a7s on the right, 1dc on the left. still 100 more of these results would be absolutely useless to watch, if someone owns an a7s and doesnt want to accept under no circumstances that there is a second good lowlight camera out there.

​your scientific advice is: "you have to bring both cameras to UNCOMPARABLE settings, so you will have a valid comparison that for sure shows the clear favour towards the a7s (i have never tested or seen)". yes, that's how professional and fair tests are done.

to come back to the main issues of this thread, here are the results of my personal shogun tests and experiences: 1) do i need a shogun? yes, except a too glossy display it seems to be a great, useful, future proof product which is a great companion to every camera even only as a monitor. if they implement 4k60p as promised it could still be in the bags alongside with future camera releases in 5 years. 2) is the shogun better than its competitors like the (new) odyssey? yes, when it comes to shooting good 4k footage. aside from several detail features mainly because it has the only 1080p screen, which is helpful for 4k quality. 3) do i need the shogun for a specific camera? for the a7s it's essential, as otherwise there's no 4k. for the 1DC highly recommended because of all the peaking tools and having a flexible screen, although it doesnt work as a recorder. for the gh4 it could go without as the onboard screen can do a good job, and the internal recording looks the same in real world. for a c500 it technically would not work as a recorder. for all 1080p cameras a cheaper monitor would do it. the only 1080 job that makes sense with the shogun is on red cameras, who have a massive internal sensor crop when shooting 1080. the shogun can finally allow 1080 wide angle shots with a scarlet or epic, although not with red raw codec. 4) which camera is the best companion for the shogun? aside from the price, for lowlight and overall features it would be the canon 1dc. for more than 5k and higher frame rates, it's the red epic (not dragon because of noise and redcode limitations). as the red onboard monitors have some more camera-specific features, i would only use a shogun for wide angle 1080p master recording (see above). 5) which budget camera is best for the shogun? right now sony a7s, because it tops the other competitors with its full frame and lowlight abilities. 6) after buying the shogun, which camera should i buy that i don't have yet? probably none. if sony comes up with a sony a7s2 that has internal stabilization as the new a7, that would be a very useful new feature that tops the old model. canon did show that they can deliver top quality (like with the lowlight abilities of the 1dc already two years ago), it's just a question of time when they make it available in cheaper products. i think it might happen in 2015! two days ago i received the new 100-400 lens, that is so good and sharp that i really think about selling my 200-400/4. it mainly did show that canon now is willing to charge only 1/5th of the price of the same quality they did offer in expensive products two years ago.

​ first: no, i am not a self proclaimed pro. in fact i dont even want or need to be seen or mentioned anywhere on the net. i am just a private person with an 8 figure revenue record in the media world, owning 30 reference cameras and 160 lenses i can test day and night without pressure, because i am in search of the best available results and technology for future projects i enjoy - and nothing else. it's funny that i should be the one talking out of my arse, although i tested the 1dc and a7s side by side and also own the 1dc and used it around the world since 2 years, which you did not. i can only write about what i have seen with my own eyes and don't really care about internet theories, as most you can read is either mass manipulation or based on no research. i don't have time for public scientific tests, and in this case they are even absolutely useless, as afterwards still hardly anybody would pay the price for a 1dc. it's also a useless discussion, because no matter if the tests show that the 1dc is a bit better or the a7s is a bit better, they are both on a very high level and useful - and a great combination with the shogun. by the way - my opinion is backed through someone who made a direct comparison film, but does not want to see it released as he works for sony. my main point still is: it's stupid to say that the 1dc is a shitty camera, topped by all new cheap cameras from other manufacturers and canon is a stupid company, while forgetting many facts (especially now, as the shogun has a solution for most that is missing on the 1dc and that you criticize). we all need canon to deliver cheaper and better products, but they might not listen to powerful forums if the arguments are too one-sided. i guess most users would still prefer to use a canon mount full frame camera in the longterm and only went to panasonic, samsung etc because of certain features. anyone who bought and built equipment around the camera of another manufacturer might regret it in 6 months. historically, canon never was on top of the game at any time. but looking at their product and technology portfolio, it's likely they will be in the future most of the time, with sony coming in second.