Cliff Totten

Guys,...this should blow your minds: Sony A6500 vs. (potential) "GH5-S" Physical sensor size and pixel count; - Sony A6300/6500 (Sony IMX284) 24.3mp APS-C (593mm2) - GH5-S - (Sony IMX294) 11mp Micro 4/3 (373mm2) ______________________________________________________ Average photosite (pixel) size; - Sony A6300/6500 = 593/24.3mp = 24.4 - GH5-S = 373/10.3mp = 36.2 Compared together = 36.2/24.4 = 1.48x LARGER pixels on this "GH5-S"! This Sony STARVIS IMX294 sensor "should" easily out perform the A6300/6500 in low light conditions. This does not even take into account the "quad pixel+ dual shutter speed" HDR modes that nobody understands yet. This only thing that we are going to lose is the lovely 5k oversample that we all love in the GH5 today :-( WOW!!!!!

Look at the back grip og Casey"s camera. Its got a very different hand grip. The molded rubber is thicker and formed differently.

You guys are talking about having 10 stops for grading down to a 6 or 7 stop rec709 delivery. And, yes,...that is perfectly OK. But rec709 is now pretty old and wont last forever. In 5 years most TVs will easily display 10 stops or even much more. BT2020 and HDR will be very common and you will need to deliver in a bigger color space. More dynamic range will be very "common" in the very near future. Even YouTube and Vimeo have HDR 10bit codecs going into homes now. Its at an early stage but its already happening on properly flagged HDR uploads.

I'm looking at all the info I can find on this Sony Starvis IMX294 sensor. There is a new astronomy camera (ZWO ASI294MC) with this sensor that measures 13stops of dynamic range at 0db. I dont know if it employs the 3 HDR modes this sensor offers or if the GH5-s will use them all either. But even with this odd "quad pixel" array and HDR binning trick that Sony has....I find it hard to believe that any sensor with 4.6 micron photosits can achieve 14 or 15 stops of DR. "If" 15 real stops were possible in 2k binning mode, this GH5-S would be mind blowingly crazy. CT

Woah,...just had a thought. What if Panasonic got the balls to add "Dual ISO" to the GH5-S...stolen from the EVA1 and VariCam? Would they actually be that bold for a camera this cheap?

Its funny how the Panasonic guys always said the GH5 is "our" sensor. We come to find out when ChipWorks did a comprehensive breakdown of every chip on the GH5 mainboard,...that it was really a Sony EXMOR IMX272 image sensor after all! Sorry Panny, I love you and my GH5 too but you gotta admit that the GH5 is being helped by Sony, big time! Its likely that they will buy this Sony STARVIS IMX294 for this GH5-s. So the GH5-s will be softer but better in low light while the GH5 will have its 6k readout, 5k to 4k scaling engine and more 4k resolving power. They fit very nicely together....thank you Sony!!

This is true. Samsung does have a great APS-C sensor. Dont think they make a FF sized chip though. Its funny....even Samsung buys Sony sensors for their Galaxy phones. Im sure Sony is grinning about that! ;-)

But what can Nikon "really" do? They are a total contractual SLAVE to Sony. Sony does NOT sell its image sensors to anybody "blindly". You just cant call up Sony and say "how much for your IMX269's??...I want 50,000 of them". Before Sony will sell its sensors to another camera company, that company must state ALL of the planned specs that their future camera will have. Sony forces and negotiates those specs BEFORE any sensor is sold to that company. These specs are placed into the contract of sale so the competitor CAN'T change them at ANY time without Sony's permission. So....when Nikon or another company buys Sony sensors, they are legally locked in to the cripples that Sony has FORCED on them. The only way arround it is for Nikon to buy from Samsung/Toshiba/Aptina/Cmosis or another fab plant. This of course will be a lower class chip and will hurt Nikon's brand....and Sony knows this very well. Sony's reputation is that they are a real pain in the butt to buy from. Sony is VERY strict on its contracts of sale. The cripples added into the contracts are very detailed. If you want to open your features up, you must pay Sony more and more for each sensor. This is why Nikon is a slave to Sony where Canon is not for FF sensors.

FS5 - New firmware fix in February!Phillip Johnston is reporting this Sony firmware update on his site:HD Warrior » Blog Archiv » Sony have admitted problems with the FS5This is fantastic news. Thank you Sony!I do have to chuckle though, Sony was able to spot this problem in their labs while some ardent Sony defenders tried their best to state this basic concept: "Nope, it's the camera operators fault, quit complaining, everything is normal with the FS5"Thank you Sony again. You were honest with your customers and really moved fast on this one.Bravo!CT

I was told at NAB last year that Sony is VERY carefully about who they sell their image sensors to and what cameras they are installed in. He told me that Sony writes contractual limitations into the sale agreement. Sony demands these sensors will only be installed into a competitor's camera with specific X,Y and Z limitations. If the buyer doesn't agree, they don't get the Sony sensor. They can negotiate with Sony but will pay a higher price for it. Supposedly Sony is VERY agressive on these legal contracts. Sony doesnt want is own technology fighting toouch against their own cameras and camcorders. I dont know if Nikon is buying Sony chips on this new model but if they are, this crippling stuff might not be their fault. They literally could have their hands tied on what they can give their customers and what they cant. This could be another reason why there are Nikon/Samsung rumors going arround now. I'm certain Nikon wants to get away from Sony at all cost. Nikon does not own a sensor plant so they MUST buy from a third party supplier. Anybody know if Nikon is buying Sony on this?

As a huge Sony fan and someone that is about to buy the FS5 soon, I must say THANK YOU for getting this issue out into the spotlight. In order to get this fixed, it will take some degree of customer pressure to get Sony take this problem seriously and develop a fix. This sites and others are doing a great job at explaining the problem and making users aware of what is really happening to their footage. As a shooter, there is nothing worse than thinking you are recording OK in the field only to come home and getting shocked at what you see afterwords. Good job and thanks again!

I did try another A7s-II black hole sun test. Instead of 30p, I tried 24p. Again, as hard as I tried, I could not force the problem to occur. Granted, I am using a US market camera and it does not have "25p"...only 24 and 30p. So I guess this only affects European models? Can anybody else get this problem on their A7s-II?

30p Certainly an 8 bit issue regardless of bit rate. However, lower bitrates can and will make 8-bit banding worse. Wow, I'm just shocked that your A7s-II does this. After I read you article, I said "Oh crap!" and I ran outside to shoot an hour+ of nothing but sun. Believe me, I was VERY relieved to see that mine exhibited no "black hole sun" issues. On the 8bit banding? Yes, I did recreate banding in SLOG-3 easily. SLOG-3 is just too flat for 8 bit. 256 shades of RGB is just too little for that kind of stretching needed to normalize SLOG-3

I took my A7s-II outside at noon today and tried for over an hour to get that black hole sun problem. I shot in rec709, slog1 and slog2. I shot with high ISO's and low. I shot with both large and small apertures. I changes lenses 3 times. I pointed at the sun, at reflections of the sun, LED lights and regular flash lights. I over exposed and under exposed....ALLOT! Everything looked completely normal. As hard as I tried, at no time could I generate this problem whatsoever. (not even slightly) I have no idea how your camera is doing that so easily. Maybe you got a lemon? Mine?...after all I did today, I'd definitely say my A7s-II bullet proof. It's certainly immune to this issue. On another note,...Did you shoot that color-banded video in 60 or 100mbp/s?

Here is what people have determined so far: The A7s internal XAVC-S seems to use the 16-235 range and avoids exceeding the upper and lower end of that scale. However, it also seems that this is not so with the HDMI output. Values for that WILL exceed 16-235. The A7s adds contrast to that to bring those values to 0-255! Its possible that it's not losing any image data by doing this. It simply maps "16" to "0" and "235" to "255" on the HDMI output. This will certainly cause a noticeable (and alarming) difference in brightness between XAVC-S and HDMI recorded images. However, it might be OK because no real image data is lost in that process. (theoretically and hopefully) People are still trying to determine if the actual SLOG-2 gamma curve is maintained in this contrast spread. Love to know more of what other A7s testers think about this.. CT

I don't know if I'm not allowed to post test results from another site but here goes: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?328412-Sony-A7s-DESTROYS-it-s-own-SLOG-2-gamma-curve-over-it-s-HDMI-port&p=1986476402&posted=1#post1986476402 Another test from another A7s owner that displays this same problem,.... Any more A7s testers out there? CT

You can see at 3:44 that the highlights in the lamp are smoother with the internal XAVC-S and will eventually avoid clipping better under "true" S-LOG2. When you look at the two captures on a scopes, there is a very significant difference between them graphically. So far, I think we can say that what is being output over HDMI is NOT S-LOG2. It's a gamma curve with about a stop or more LESS dynamic range than "true" S-LOG2. Looking for more A7s testers out there..... CT

No way to know yet about the 4K output. I'm going to hold back on calling it a "cripple" right now. I'm just going to call it a "Sony oversight" today. If they fix it than it's just s simple design mistake. If they decide not to fix it? Than for sure, it's a Sony "cripple". It is quite possible that they don't want the A7s being able to output SLOG-2 from HDMI to a higher codec like ProRes (especially in 4K) because they find that too dangerous to their other models. Yes, it could be a sneaky and surprise "gotcha" for their customers. (A very bad PR mistake if so) Let's wait and see. If Sony fixes it than all will be forgiven quickly, I'm sure. It's been reported to Atomos and their engineers are investigating. Convergent Design is checking with Sony. We need more A7s testers!!! CT Let's see what Sony says. CT

It happens at 1080 HDMI capture. I have not heard of any reports on the 4K side yet. (Dont know how many people are actually recording 4K form the A7s today) I hope Sony fixes this before the Shogun comes out. The A7s relies heavily on it's HDMI port to compete against the GH4 and I'm sure this news will become bigger and bigger after the Shogun is released. (There will literally be thousands of people recording 4K form the A7s by November)

It's important to note that when using SLOG-2 on the A7s, there IS a "LOG-ish" type of gamma curve. However, it is NOTHING like true SLOG-2. The HDMI port seems to rest somewhere between REC 709 and SLOG-2. You must compare with scopes. Histograms don't lie. You will see a SIGNIFICANT amount of contrast over the HDMI signal vs. the true SLOG-2 internal recording. It's my guess that you lose between 1 and 2 stops of dynamic range over the HDMI. (This is a rough guess of mine.) The bit distribution is WAY off between the two. It's very easy to see. Dan Keaton from Convergent Design has stated today that they are calling their contacts at Sony about this after IBC is over. They don't feel this is intentional on Sony's part. Again, if you are an A7s owner and can screen cap your scopes and histograms of the two files, (HDMI vs. internal XAVC-S) that would really go a long way to help us get Sony to fix this. (see mine above) CT Edit: BTW,....this is NOT a recorder problem. We have confirmation from users stating that Convergent Design, Atomos, BlackMagic and PIX recorders ALL see the A7s HDMI this way.

Absolutely agreed! I'm desperate for more A7s testers. The original notice went up on DVInfo. I saw it and began testing myself. I tested with both Atomos and BlackMagic recorders and both gave the same result. The gamma curve that is recorded internally via XAVC-S is very different than what is sent out of HDMI. Compare both files (XAVC-S and ProRes file) on your scopes and tell me what you see. I hope you don't see the same thing that Convergent Design and I saw. Calling all A7s testers!..please. I would sooooo very much LOVE to be wrong about this. CT

Hi folks, As far as I know, very little has been said about this. However, Convergent Design has recently stated that Sony has the A7s HDMI port locked to a gamma curve that is closer to REC 709 than true SLOG-2. It's true, I have tested this myself and the A7s destroys it's SLOG-2 gamma curve on it's HDMI port. Here is what happens: 1.) Record a SLOG-2 internal XAVC-S file. 2.) Record via HDMI to any recorder that you have. 3.) Compare both files on a scope...you will see that the SLOG-2 gamma curve has been stretched and "damaged". (compared to internal file's "proper" curve on the scope) The histogram does not lie either, it CLEARLY shows what Sony is doing to cripple it's HDMI port. (hopefully this is a Sony oversight and not a "surprise...gotcha!" stunt. Sony markets its A7s external recording HEAVILY against the GH4 and it's a big selling point for the A7s. SLOG-2 in general is a HUGE selling feature of this camera. Now, if Sony chooses to cripple SLOG-2 over the port and trap it inside it's internal 4:2:0 codec,...that is perfectly well within their right. (No doubt at all) However, Sony needs to state this is being done in it's marketing and sales materials!! Sony needs to be upfront about it when they push it's external recording capability! Statements like: * "SLOG-2 has been removed from any external recording" or * "What is displayed on the camera monitor (gamma curve) is NOT what is actually output over HDMI. This would be the FAIR way to treat Sony's customers. This is a huge problem and I hope Sony fixes this soon. Am I the only A7s owner that is concerned about this?