markr041

What exactly are the "camcorder look" and the " digital look"? And what is bad about them? This should be easier to answer than what is "cinematic."

Nikon Z8 or Z9: 8K 60P 12bit RAW video - no need for an external recorder to shoot RAW. 8K for all the detail that landscapes need, and 60P to capture naturally those crashing surfs. RAW (but you can also use ProRes HQ) for maximum flexibility in post. Nikon Z lenses are optically superb

Testing at night in 4K 60P:

The internal audio has horrible digital hash in the background, and has no manual level control. The external mic audio, however, is not bad and has a manual gain control. Here's a test: with live music and sounds: SonicPresence SP15C Binaural Stereo USB-C mic. 4K 60P, HLG. Jazz trios, solo guitar, tap dancing, typing, compressor, fountain.

The HLG setting in the Pocket 3 conforms to the standard - REC2020 color gamut (approximately) and the HLG gamma. So it is easy to start grading using the standard transforms. Two examples in HLG HDR:

I am not sure what you are adding. Yes, there is no mathematical statement of the gamma, as I said, twice. And there is not diagram/math describing the area of the WIDE gamut, as I said (only once). Though the G-Log uses the REC709 color gamut as the default, which is known. We do not need "professional colourists" to tell us what is missing, but I am very glad to hear you mingle with them, which I guess is the point of your post. Professional colourist or not, it is very difficult to deal with an undescribed gamma and color gamut when color grading video and I agree with you, as I said twice, GoPro should be compelled to provide the information, given their evident commitment to having GoPro's used by filmmakers (who seem to use them anyway), so we can get proper transforms and not rely on amateur LUTs or ad hoc fiddling with color controls.

Thanks again for your lecture as if the audience here is not aware of gamuts and gammas. But maybe there is someone who does not, and I am sure he is grateful for your post, however besides the point of this discussion. You wanted a specification for the GoPro log gamma, a good idea. So, we were discussing gammas. The G-Log is using the REC709 color gamut, so that is not an issue for D-log, which is a gamma. Look it up. Slog is a gamma, C-Log is a gamma, N-Log is a gamma. Nothing to do with color space. There is an issue with the WIDE color space of the GoPro (called 'Native" and bizarrely set in white balance), which does not conform to a standard (just like SGamut.cine etc.) and can be used with the Flat gamma or the G-Log gamma.. And I agree it would be nice to have the specs on that so one can transform it to standard, REC709 or maybe even approximately to REC2020. And, yes, we need the same info for DJI's D-log, which, again, is only a gamma. when you select D-Log you get REC709 color. You can look it up. Indeed, for the Pocket 3, one might be better off using the HLG choice, since that uses the standard HLG gamma and the standard REC2020 color space. You can look it up. Thus, one can use the transforms and do not need anyone' LUT.

Ok, you are asking them to publish the specs so RCM can be used. I agree, so we can avoid LUTs. But that is not a criticism of the gamma itself. GoPro proper behavior, not proper gamma? On the GoPro Labs website a graph of the D-log gamma is shown; one could compute the math that fits that curve. Btw, the DJI Pocket 3 D-Log M does not handle highlights very well; the Hero 11 and 12 G-Log does better. And a LUT is also needed for the D-log, since DJI does not reveal the specs. The LUT is supplied.

Could you explain what a "proper" log is? We are referring to a gamma curve. There is no standard "log" gamma: there is N-Log, Z-Log, S-Log,(2 and 3) M-Log, C-Log(2 and 3) etc. - all different. And then there is GoPro's Log. What about it is any less "proper" than all these other "logs"? The only standard log gammas are those, for example, for HLG and HDR10 (PQ).

There was indeed something wrong with the G-Log implementation in the Hero 12 initial firmware as I suspected. I believe that the EV was automatically set to -2 (with no notice) and the LUT upped the luma to compensate. The result was, in my first video using the G-Log and the LUT, horrible noise in the shadows on a bright day. Not subtle. GoPro has just issued a firmware update adding EV control when choosing G-Log and has issued a first LUT for it called GPLOG_Creative_EV0. GoPro promises more LUTs, which I bet will be EV-1 and EV-2. Hopefully the EV0 will provide better results with EV=0. Now users can choose to protect highlights rather than being forced to obtain more shadow detail (why would anyone do that except in horror movies?).

I am still concerned by the audio (not relevant for this video, which is just for Happy Halloween), with the internal-mic audio sounding odd. For the internal mics, there is no control of gain. For any external mic, however, there is. And any usb-c mic will work even in stereo (I tried one), and with an external mic you see audio meter bars on the screen by which to check and set audio levels. It also seems that any usb-c to female 3.5" converter cable will also work so one can use wired standard mics with unbalanced connectors with the camera, unlike for the GoPro's. Finally, you can use two DJI wireless mic2's to record in stereo, if you can purchase a second DJI mic2. So, interviewer and interviewee mic'ed up wirelessly with 32bit float recorded on each "mic" as backup. So, the audio is actually a big focus for the camera, but I do not understand why the double standard, internal and external.

No D-Log option for 4K 120P. It seems to me the Hero 12 (11) has greater dynamic range using G-log (which is available at all frame rates and resolutions) than the Pocket 3 D-Log. At least the Hero 12 handles highlights better. I am now shooting the Pocket 3 with EV -.3 now to try to improve the preservation of highlights.

4K 120P Slow Motion Demo Standard color (no D-Log).

OK, here you go: using the D-Log M 10bit setting and the official DJI D-Log M LUT (I hate LUTs, but what can you do): Harsh highlights and very processed-sounding audio (set to stereo, front). Not stressed in lower light as expected. Colors are good, but somehow not so appealing. I nixed a bunch of outdoors shots because they were all overexposed (based on using auto exposure), not a problem with current GoPro's (used to be). Noise reduction was turned off in the camera, sharpness set to -1, not -2, from 0. GoPro's look to me to have better handling of highlights, more appealing color, and much better audio. Pocket 3 does the job in low light, where the GoPro essentially cannot operate. I do not think anyone would shoot a mediocre attempted blockbuster film with the Pocket 3 (as was done with the fx3), and it's not a crash cam. But if one wants to move with the camera in dim places and loves portability this is the only alternative. It does, btw, charge really fast and it is a nice screen. But that audio... I will try again outdoors in bright light.

The hyperfocal distance calculations are useful. But can you lock focus at say 6 feet? When moving with the camera straight along a path in AF, what does the camera focus on?

On a normal camera you can fix the aperture at an fstop you want. Having an iris means you can control the depth of field. And in bright sun you could avoid the highest shutter speeds. With a permanently fixed fstop of f2.0 or f1.8 you not not only need high shutter speeds you need to worry about focus, with a 1" sensor, because depth of field will be relatively narrow. The joy of shooting with the GoPro is that with the small sensor and very wide angle lens you never have to worry about focus - everything is in focus from about 11 inches onward.

I agree. My only conern is the audio - no manual control of audio levels. Almost all the other 1" sensor cameras have audio manual control. The other is no aperture/shutter contol that I see. Bright light needs external ND filters (which are available), very awkward to even attain 180 shutter. The 1" Canon V10 has full manual control of audio and video settings and builtin ND.

I wish people would give a link to a film, stream series, TV show, wedding video etc. they like the look of, then maybe explain what was used to achieve it ("1917" was one example). I will commit: I like the look of Ted Lasso. Colorful without the teal and yellow/orange, no hiding of backgrounds, high resolution (delivered 4K with no mist filter). But still a bit hyper reality. The best part was: subject isolation. This series was shot on an ARRI LF, which has a sensor bigger than FF. There was no super blurred backgrounds, just enough DOF for subject isolation and seeing what was around. Some close ups, of course. I also like the look of The Searchers - big widescreen and wide angle with seemingly infinite DOF. A look relevant to the setting, should not work for London! Not a controversial choice. In neither of these do I think "lens character" mattered, so much as focal length and aperture (and sensor size for the digital one). But maybe I missed the subtelties.

Another innovation: Now, Hero 11, 12 and mini can go 60 feet underwater instead of 30 feet without the extra external case with a new GoPro Labs firmware setting ("Dive Mode"). It turns out that the only problem going below 30 feet is that water pressure pushes the buttons down! This setting disables the buttons. Starting and stopping shooting is based on shaking the camera and exciting the gyroscope or the accelerometer. Clever and useful. The GoPro Labs firmware adds a large variety of capabilities not available on any other "action", or many other cameras, and continues to add features. Let's continue to gripe about GoPros's, in an informed way, so GoPro continues to innovate.

Leaving aside the condescending tone (really, we all need to learn color grading because we do not do it?), I agree with the OP that none of the default LUTs or transforms to REC709 are satisfactory and adjustments in post are almost always needed. And the examples are useful. For the opportunistic video I shoot, for which it is impossible to set white balance manually and catch the shot, I use auto WB. And WB that is off is the number one problem with the ungraded but transformed clips. This is one reason why I shoot RAW, because WB adjustments are always needed. The examples given seem to be of studio shots with controlled lighting and time to set everything right in the camera, and so are good examples of the pure inadequacy of the transforms shot correctly (although one looks underexposed). Generally, after transforms and WB adjustments I find saturation needs boosting as well as contrast, but skin tones are usually ok. For real RAW, sharpness needs tweaking too. The aim of course in my case is to mimic reality (the illusion of reality). None of this makes me an expert in color grading, and I am still learning some skills, but it has been enough to get positive "wows" from viewers seeing 8K 60 fps representations meant to convey they are there.

Now you are just being ornery and unfortunately misleading. GoPro added 10bit color. That is not trivial. GoPro added 5.3K resolution at 60P. That is not trivial. No small waterproof camera has that combination. You just ignore these advances. Now we got control over the gamma curve; we can even control noise reduction - which you cannot do on Sony cinema cameras. That is new too. We can increase the color gamut, that is new. Maybe you just don't know about these advances? GoPro stabilization won an Academy Award, and beats any camera of any price and any phone. It is a real challenge to avoid overheating in a tiny waterproof-sealed box shooting 180 mbs at 5.3K and 60 fps. And in the latest version they managed to more than double time to thermal shutdown, up to an hour. That is new and important. Sony, Nikon, and Canon top cameras overheat. I have the Sony X3000. In its day it was the best action cam, and I really liked it and shot many videos with it. Today its IQ is a joke compared to that of any GoPro from 8 on up, as is its stabilization. And Sony stopped innovating in that area, completely. I liked the little dji gimbal camera - that was innovative. It beats the Sony X3000 in every way too. But even its second version has inferior IQ and stabilization to the newer GoPros. And of course it is neither rugged nor waterproof. We will see what the third version offers. Complaining about GoPros is useful, but only when it is informed.

That's great stuff, and we can see why you had some frustrating experiences. But you could read the history as GoPro responding to issues: eg, create the Enduro battery precisely to improve battery life in the cold, overcome the heat and battery life issues of the highest resolutions and frame rates, improve the responsiveness of the lcd to touch, add 10 bit color, provide log gammas, add full-sensor framing (8:7), up resolution, improve stabilization, make performance more reliable. And all the while keeping the same form factor and robustness and price. No to mention GoPro Labs innovations and the the use of QR codes. Having failures is a symptom of innovation. There are really still no competitors (leaving aside 360 for now) that are not just trying to match, unsuccessfully, Hero's. No real innovation by anyone else. And, we should keep complaining, because GoPro evidently responds!

5.3K 60p is the mode that is mostly likely to lead to thermal shutdown, *according to GoPro*. Indeed that mode is where on the Hero 12 they claim to have made the most improvements in battery life and heating. Anyway, the relative thermal and battery life performance suggest 5.3K 60p is the most taxing on the GoPro. I agree downsampling is strenuous; I wonder if the 4K modes are line skipped or pixel binned. GoPro has never revealed how they achieve full sensor framing at lower resolutions. I often downsample 5.3K in post to 4K and that takes more time than just rendering at 5.3K. Similarly, rendering at 8K from 8K RAW takes less resources than rendering at 4K. So I produce 8K and 5.3K videos and let YouTube do the downsampling to 4K if I upload!