mercer

Haha... out of likes for the day.

Well I think it’s probably a symbiotic relationship. Some filmmakers just seem to have a beautiful relationship with certain cameras... Andrew Reid with his hacked GH1/GH2 films. Kendy Ty with his t2i videos, that Ruslan guy with his Leica D-Lux 6 videos, Ed David with his NX1 video, Mattias with any camera he picks up, etc, etc, etc... so I think some combination of craft and mechanics can give almost any camera or more importantly film that “mojo.” But it does seem that certain cameras have it in spades. Think about it... on a technical level... 8K Red should obliterate Alexa footage, but it doesn’t...

If I knew the answer to that question, I’d undoubtedly be a better filmmaker. Honestly, I think you’re looking at it wrong. Find a camera and lens that feel good in your hands and makes you want to shoot. Hopefully that same camera will help you to tell the story you want to tell in a visually and emotionally engaging way. Use the strengths of the camera and lenses to your benefit while working around its weaknesses. I think searching for a quantifiable A+B=C approach to “mojo” or “filmic” is a fool’s errand. But I do believe some cameras will get you there quicker and a lot of craft doesn’t hurt either.

A color science discussion will send us through another wormhole.

I believe in camera specific mojo, but I am sure it is more than just the camera... it’s lighting, lens choice and placement, color science, subject matter, and obviously the pre through post production elements. So yeah... probably most cameras could have mojo within the right circumstances but some cameras seem to offer it more often. In my opinion some of the cameras with mojo, in no particular order, are... Canon 1DC, Hacked Panasonic GH1/GH2, Panasonic LX100, Sony a7s, Canon 5D Mark III with ML Raw, Nikon D750, the anamorphic from the GH4/GH5... especially in 1080p, anything Leica or Fuji for stills... and some video, BMMC and BMPCC/BMMCC in ProRes or Raw, the Canon Cine Cameras... I’m sure there are others. There are filmmakers that believe and strive to obtain an organic, thick, filmic and cinematic image and we believe that some cameras are easier to get there and then there are other filmmakers that question the quantifiable aspect of those statements... as if everything in life is quantifiable...

@PannySVHS you need the Fotasy brand c-m4/3.

Yeah, I guess. But my point is that I was tired of chasing “image advantages.” Sure there are 4K cameras in the 80D’s price range but a lot of them look too videoish to me. And if you look around on IG, or other sites, people are still shooting films with Canon firmware 5D Mark IIs... and they’re making beautiful films. I think we’ve talked about this before... if Kendy Ty can use a t2i and make such amazing shorts, then surely an 80D would be good enough... if you work within and around its limitations. And the funny things is... now that Kendy has upgraded to an a6300, his short films do not look as good... Somehow the magic got lost within the resolution.

@Damphousse well Kendy Ty’s t2i videos are still amongst some of the best videos I have ever seen online. And I know a filmmaker, well a friend of a friend, that shot a feature last year on a t3i and he had it distributed to WalMart. Here’s the trailer for it... So the fact of the matter is... cliche or not... content is king. If I didn’t buy the 5D3, I would have settled on an 80D by now... with the 17-55mm and the 35mm f2, I ultimately would have been content. Thanks for the info on stock footage... I may look into that this summer when my work slows down. Hell, even if I could make a $100 a year... it’s more than my short films will ever make...

Back in 2013, I replaced my t2i with the OG eos-m for an insane $197 brand new. I loved that camera... still do. It’s the only camera I’ve kept after experimenting with other brands. I tried ML Raw but just couldn’t consistently get rid of the pink dots, so I gave up on it. I may try it again with MLV Lite or the experimental builds, but it isn’t top priority. A year and a half ago, I bought the M10 and thought it was a fun little camera to mess around with but never shot any stills with it. In fact, up until recently I have never used any of these cameras for stills and like you said, the video on these powershot eos-m models isn’t the best, so I just sold it for a profit. But I am gaining more of an appreciation for stills and I just have a fondness for the eos-m system (nostalgia I guess) so I am looking forward to the M50. It will live in my glove box for stills and the occasional 4K video... unless the 4K ends up being horrible but so far it looks okay... we’ll see as more footage gets released. Thanks for the heads up on the 22mm. I think I’ll start looking around for one. Regarding c-mounts... back when I owned the NX500 I bought a c-mount adapter for it, knowing the flange distance was only good enough for macro shots but with a similar sensor size and a similar crop, I had no issue getting coverage with a 25mm... I assume it will be close with the M50 as well? What kind of cinema camera do you have?

Good to know. Even Resolve’s default Rec709 settings look pretty good with ML Raw footage for a quick turnaround to ProRes and a simple grade in FCPX... or Premiere in your case. As I said on IG, right now I’m just messing with footage while I shoot it but when I get closer to the editing stage I really need to get more serious about color and since I am just a tinkerer now, I am contemplating an ACES workflow... we’ll see... I’m pretty impatient. lol.

@webrunner5 Don, buy away... let me know what you’re looking for... I’ll give you the grumpy old dude discount. Lol.

@kidzrevil interesting. Do you do a quick Rec709 transfer in Resolve for 5D3 footage, or do you use BMD Film and turn to Rec709 after?

I agree with you about costs. I spent a ton of time and a ton of money trying to find the right camera that fit my needs and non-traditional way of shooting narratives. After a dozen sub $1000 cameras I ended up trying the XC10... which I loved but the depreciation was way too much and way too quick for my budget minded way of shooting. I tried the Pocket and the Micro but both are not really suitable for run and gun. And to make them suitable required me to use Micro 4/3 lenses... which I hate. So on a lark, I bought a 50D and fell in love with Canon and ML Raw. But that camera is a pain for Raw video for narratives... so I tried a few other cameras and inevitably saved up for a 5D3 and I couldn’t be happier. But the 5D3 is big and as you know, Raw video takes a lot of storage. So when I was cleaning out an old hard drive, I found a bunch of old tests and although the resolution of the various 4K cameras I owned “looked” better... my favorite videos were made with a Canon camera. Seriously I liked my old t2i videos better than I liked the G7 videos. Obviously Panasonic makes a great product but I just find I prefer Canon video... I enjoy that soft and flattering shallow depth of field more than I like tack sharp wide angle shots. Also I find the Canon looks more cinematic. So, that’s why I would choose the M50 over the G7 or the G85. Also I want to start doing more stills and the appeal of the aps-c sensor suits me more than the Micro 4/3. But for the occasional 4K video... I can deal with the crop. But this is just a casual camera for hobby shooting, so for what it is, it could be great. Of course I probably won’t buy one until they drop below $700 or a lot less... so who knows what will be released by then. But if I was trying to make a living with video, I’d honestly buy an 80D until I could save up for a C100 II. That camera is just a workhorse and would pay for itself with a couple jobs. I work in the trade show industry and nine out of ten times, the videographers on the show floor are shooting with Canon DSLRs or C100s. It’s only on web forums where those cameras get looked down upon. I’d love to know how you make a little extra cash? I’ve been thinking of ways to recoup a little of the money I spent over the past couple of years but I wouldn’t even know where to begin.

With the 2.2x crop of the G7 and GX85, I was able to get the Fujinon 12.5mm and the Cosmicar 12.5mm f/1.9 to fully cover the sensor. Both are 1” lenses. But I was also able to get a 20mm Meopta to cover as well... which I believe is regular 16mm or S16mm. So at a 2.4x/2.5x crop (depending which article you read) I would imagine a 25mm S16 lens should cover it. And I should have no problem with the 12.5mm 1” lenses?

Somebody must be buying Canon mirrorless cameras since they are in second place in mirrorless sales. I don’t think there’s a huge market for these entry level cameras but there must be some market.

And I did, thanks. You must realize my impatience for long online videos. Lol. For me, I was bummed but I didn’t expect much, so in some ways for my weird reasons, it’s actually kind of an exciting release to me. I was close to just getting G7X Mark II for around the same price, so this will definitely be better than that.

Okay yeah I can see the drifting from that point, but still for a contrast af, it still isn’t that bad. Panasonic, Olympus or Fuji’s variants wouldn’t have been nearly as good. So again for me, it’s a bummer there is no DPAF in 4K but still not a deal breaker. Hopefully, they’ll tweak it by the time the production model is released or in a future update... or I’ll just manual focus.

@Inazuma yeah I saw that but I really don’t think that’s a good indicator due to him shakily holding the camera. Actually as much as that camera is shaking, it’s locking onto his face pretty darn good, IMO. Obviously not as good as DPAF would do, but for me it’s not a deal breaker. As I said, I suspect it will be as good as the G7X Mark II which was praised for its AF abilities.

I get that and honestly if this camera is for you or not doesn’t matter at all to me but I expect the AF in 4K will be as good as the AF on the G7X Mark II... which is actually pretty damn good and should still be better with tracking and touch than any camera in its price range. But I’ll wait until more samples and reviews pop up to say for sure. To add, I’m unsure how many points the contrast AF has but I just remembered that not only does the G7X Mark II use contrast based AF, but so does the XC10... so as much I would have loved DPAF, it still should be decent. We shall see.

It’s funny, this is not at all what I was hoping for when the 4K rumors started floating around. I was hoping for no crop (or very minimal) and I didn’t even consider that 4K wouldn’t have DPAF... seriously the thought didn’t even enter my mind. So when it was officially released and saw the heavy crop and no DPAF, I was bummed to say the least. But then I began to consider the possibilities of the crop... 4K, Canon colors and c-mount lenses sounds like a great combination. The c-mounts will soften the 4K video. And to be honest... the EF-M mount doesn’t really have enough lenses to make DPAF all that appealing. Sure you can use adapters, but big clunky adapters, with big, clunky EF lenses doesn’t sound like that much fun either. As is, the EF-M 11-22mm plus the 22mm f/2 seems like a great combo for street photography and DPAF 1080p (which I’ve heard is pretty clean) and a couple c-mount lenses for 4K. I don’t know... I get why people may not like the camera... but barring really bad IQ (so far so good from what I’ve seen) this could be a fun little camera that will scratch my itch when I don’t want to lug around my 5D3.

@sam I just love this discussion, although for fairness to the OP, it probably should be made a new topic. But I will briefly say that on some level you’re right... it’s just where your level begins and ends. For YouTube videos, I would agree that at $500 or less, the iPhone is probably good enough if you’re only making videos for YouTube. But at a higher price point, the differences in IQ will be obvious, even on a small screen. I view all videos from every camera on my phone first and then I’ll watch them on a 40” TV to see how they hold up. Surprisingly, a lot of cameras look good on a smartphone. And surprisingly... a lot don’t. An iPhone will not compete with a 1DC even on a 3” screen. But other, less expensive cameras will close the gap. But very few sub $3000 cameras will have the mojo the 1DC has... big screen, little screen... any screen. So to keep this on topic and to offer advice to the OP from someone who has never used either camera but has watched tons of videos from both... the 1DC has some special sauce that is missing from the 1DXii. But the 1DXii is no slouch and I have seen some gorgeous, next level videos shot with it. So it really comes down to features... if you need great AF at up to 60p 4K... it’s pretty simple. Now I’m sure a lot of people are familiar with this guy’s work, but every time I watch this video, I am mesmerized... And that one leads me to this one from the same filmmaker... I know which one I would pick, but every body’s needs are different.

@DaveAltizer with all due respect, I never really bought the excuse that GH5s features were included, or not included, based on one Amazon Original show’s requests. Obviously, you’ve worked with both cameras, so I’ll yield to your insider knowledge, but I have yet to see anything from either GH5 variant that matches the 1DC... or anything that would have the IQ for a Hollywood production. But in the end, they’re all just tools and more often than not, it’s more about the craftsman holding the tools.

Man Dave... am glad you like the GH5s but I don’t know how you would give up this image for it? I mean... Hollywood films have been shot with the 1DC...

Look guys, every sub $1000 camera has handicapped 4K. Panasonic has a crop, albeit a smaller crop, but it’s a smaller sensor. Sony has overheating or time limits. And Fuji has time limits. Canon has a larger crop but it also has the highest bitrate 4K in the sub $1000 market. There are concessions to be made in the sub $1000 market. Hell, Panasonic’s entry level camera doesn’t even have manual video.

Did anyone read the NFS article? Because it was hardly praising of the camera, other than the title... which easily could have had a question mark at the end. The most positive statement and thesis of it is quite simply that this could be a sign that Canon is ready to embrace 4K in future models. But it went into complete detail why this variant is flawed. Either way, I don’t think any filmmaker is going to be duped by this camera but it still looks like a fun, cheap hybrid, for stills and casual video, to me.