mercer

Cool feature. How much of the 12mm or 14mm micro4/3 zooms are vignetted in S35mm mode? That’s pretty cool!

How do you like the combo? The DVX looks amazing, with the bigger sensor, but may be a touch more than I want to spend... do you shoot a lot of narratives with the combo and if so, what are your thoughts? I’m pretty familiar with the FZ2500. After buying and selling two of them, I always wish I had kept it... just something unique about that camera... it’s probably the 1080p quality and the push button slow motion. Yup that’s it. Also it seems that camcorders get the video features we all want in stills cameras before the stills cameras get them... case in point the DVX200 and the Canon XF400 with its h.264 4K up to 60p. And I have little doubt if some of the master directors were starting out today, they very well may shoot with a camcorder. Re: the LS300... I wonder if any of those Olympus 4/3 f/2 zooms and adapter would work with it?

@BTM_Pix thanks for the reply, and the suggestions. And yes, that is exactly what I am looking for with this camera. I am definitely considering the LS300, for all of the reasons you’ve suggested and more. And I may end up getting the FZ2500 regardless of this camcorder fancy. I have a very specific project I have in mind for that camera and there are a few features that really fit the bill. If I decide I like it, I may go ahead and get a UX-90 as well. From the few samples I’ve seen, that camera seems to be the most cinematic with the CineLike profiles. The Sony Z90 also looks like an excellent choice with some decent samples floating around. I think the best part about the Z90 is the internal 10bit 4:22 1080p... it really is a camcorder version of the FS5, for 2 grand cheaper, which I find very appealing as I am a big fan of that camera’s 1080p output. Not to bore you, but I am really surprised by these camcorders. You really have to use your imagination when you look at samples online because not many folks are using them for cinematic filmmaking... but after scouring the web, I have found positive traits with the Panasonic, Canon and Sony’s offerings. The LS300 samples are a lot more obvious in their quality... which is why it is still on the list as well... just on the higher end that I was looking to spend. Anyway, thanks again.

Thanks, Kye!!! That was a very interesting read... I don’t think I’ve read one of their reports before but I’ll definitely look into them more in the future!

Definitely. Great points! With the price of the XC10 right now, I very well may end up buying that camera again. I don’t think I can stress home much I enjoyed using that camera in 1080p. I just loved the image, the form factor and the semi-auto functioning. It just got out of the way. The only reason I sold it was because it was my first big purchase. I paid $2000 for it and within two months I saw the value of it drop on the used market... I got scared so I dumped it while it still had some meat on its bones. However, one of the most appealing features of this S16 camcorder idea for me are the XLR inputs, and built in top handle... so I would probably choose the XF400 with its DPAF, 4K 60p, XLRs and top handle over the XC10. I can always shoot 1080p with the XF400 or downscale the 4K. If it had Canon Log, I’d stop looking and start saving right now but of course Canon has to be Canon about something. Of course, I believe the XF405 has 10bit 4:22 output through SDI... so add on a BMVA and the camera becomes a little bit more for certain projects that need that little extra.

Haha, in a way yeah. In my pursuit of making films as a hobby, I’ve gained a second hobby of testing cameras and lenses. They aren’t always mutually exclusive but one is a bigger waste of time than the other. Lol. I’ve mentioned many times in the past how intrigued I am by the LS300. We speak of hybrids all the time on this site, but the LS300 could be the only camcorder/cinema camera hybrid on the market. I don’t know if it’s the right camera for this specific goal, but it’s definitely an option. But I do love the idea of a cinecorder... which is exactly how I will treat any possible camcorder purchase. In the past day I have narrowed down my options to two, then up to three and back to two. Tomorrow I’ll change my mind again. Thank god I don’t have the money right now to buy one, because I may have ended up with three. Lol. You seem fairly knowledgeable on the camcorder offerings so what are your thoughts of the Panasonic UX-90? It’s on the cheaper end but seems to have most of the features of the 180? If I go this whole camcorder route, I could pick up the FZ2500 on the cheap... give it a real go this time to see how I get along with it and then pick up the UX-90 as the A-Cam to the FZ2500 B-Cam. My only problem with the UX-90 is that it’s a little on the bigger side compared to the Z-90 and XF-400 which are very compact.

IronFilm, I appreciate your input here and definitely have learned a ton about audio from you, but we are not having the same discussion. In fact, we are on two totally different planets. I’ve worked (acted, boom operated, ran lights, built sets, etc...) on no budget, DIY films and the notion that they will be less than any other, low budget/no budget production just isn’t factual. It’s different and you make sacrifices that need to be made but I am not talking about creating technical trash, I’m talking about making some secessions and using technology to make the process easier. But for the sake of argument, have you really evaluated the state of micro budget and low budget filmmaking lately? I’m talking anywhere from a $1000-$50,000 budget. There is almost no money to be made and very little distribution options. Short films are great, I’m working on one but the market is so saturated that it’s easy to get lost in the mix. Now I could save up for a year or two and have enough money to rent a Wet Alexa or a Red and shoot the slickest 5 minute short. Lots of people do it, and lots of people end up spending 20,000 bucks to have their expensive short die a slow death on YouTube. So what good is that? With the same money, I could make 2-3 run and gun features in 2 years, enter them in festivals, seek out distributors, use some of that money to get an aggregator, or release them on Amazon as a last chance option. It’s an odds game. Did you know the last successful, no budget film was a found footage film called The Break In, shot on an iPhone, released on Amazon and the filmmaker has made millions of dollars with it. I’m not delusional enough to think I’ll hit that jackpot... that’s why I’m a hobbyist with a day job. But as I get older, and going forward with this whacky hobby, I know which path I’d rather follow. Just my opinion. Great points and thanks for replying. I like EOSHD, there are some great and helpful people around here, some of which I would call friends, but it is a bubble... Once DSLRs came around, I never even considered a camcorder... EWW... been there, done that. But I also haven’t really looked at what’s available either in the sub-$3000 camcorder market. And after checking out the specs yesterday while drinking my coffee... I thought to myself... hmm. After looking at some videos... I thought... wow that could be usable. I could be the only human that sees the possibilities here, and I’d never recommend it to anyone if they asked me what camera should I get, but for the reasons I’ve previously stated... I find the possibilities exciting.

Thanks Kye, this is a very logical approach with great points. But if you’ve read my last couple comments you may understand my point about using a camcorder for CERTAIN projects. As a hobbyist/diy/no budget/one man band filmmaker that has A LOT of movie ideas but only limited time and budget per project, I am looking for ways to be more productive with more creative freedom. For me, a camcorder could be the perfect tool for certain projects. For those projects, it wouldn’t be a B-Cam, it would be THEE-Cam. As far as shallow depth of field goes, yeah when the XC10 was my only camera, I definitely missed lenses and shallow DOF, but anyone who has ever shot with a camcorder knows ways around that through composition and focal length... and it’s not like a 1” sensor is an iPhone.

Robert Rodriguez and Rebel Without a Crew should be a case study for any narrative filmmaker going the DIY/no budget route. No to little dialogue is a great idea for a first film, that’s how my film is turning out now. But this camcorder idea isn’t about being overwhelmed by a production, or even about the ease of production, per se, it’s about the freedom of production. It’s about filming ideas that can be shot quickly by just going out and doing it... Look at the French New Wave, Dogme 95, Mumblecore... The XF400 would be the perfect tool. Compact with all the amenities for an all in one solution. 4K up to 60p. DPAF. But no Canon Log. Even without it, it’s still a contender because it is the only option with 4K 60p at $3000 or less. If I was buying today it would be between this and the Z90.

And that kinda sums up my point. I love Raw Video and I will shoot a lot of it in the coming months and years... hell I am in the middle of a film that started as a short and may end up being a feature by the time I’m done. With that film, I’m using time to my benefit. I’m not rushed, I have no deadline so I can sculpt the film as I go. But there are times, I just want to pick up a camera and go shoot a film. I have at least 1 movie idea a week... some are strictly for my screenwriting pursuits, but others are small, contained ideas that I could shoot. Some ideas I am obsessed with and would put the extra time to shoot on Raw, others are good ideas but would require a quicker turnaround to keep my interest. So for me, the old adage... the right tool for the right job isn’t just based on the technical or craft element of the job but also the creative side. For instance... I have a really good found footage idea. I enjoy the occasional found footage film but I don’t particularly love them. I don’t know if I could get obsessed with the film, but if I could shoot it on weekends, easily over the course of a month or two... then yeah... why not? So, I don’t want to stifle my creative options based on technical limitations. Btw, I think I remember you posting the trailer to that feature of yours... I’d love to see it again if you still have it online?

Yeah I have it, not in a while though... strange to think that so much time has passed, but I read that back in my 20s... ugh early 20s. Yuck. Great book though. If anybody ever thinks they are bogged down with minutiae, read that book... it will get you on track.

I was actually just reading about that model. With the 10bit 1080p, it almost seems like the S16, camcorder version of the FS5... just $2000 cheaper. If I decide to go forward with this, the Z90 is on the top of my list. Do you use sLog with it? What other PP does it offer?

Well, until I came to this site, I thought a lot of filmmakers were one man band. I guess coming to age in the 90s when indie cinema was in its glory days, you heard stories of Soderberg shooting Sex Lies and Videotape, or Kevin Smith shooting Clerks, or Robert Rodriguez shooting El Mariachi for $7000. These guys wrote their scripts, rented a camera, directed and shot their film. I love operating the camera and the impromptu shot creation, mixed with storyboards and shot lists... I just don’t care about codecs, follow focus units, and half the things a lot of folks around here care about. I care about story and composition. I don’t think others are wrong, I’m the weirdo around here.

Thanks for posting this. I must say, the Sony camcorders do look nice and seem feature packed with sLog and PDAF. The NX variant does add the XLRs and top handle for only a little more, though. Do you record internal audio with the AX700?

Great points, I want to discuss further but I am beat and need to close my eyes for a little while.

Yup great point, I just realized that other than XLRs and the smaller MP sensor, I really wouldn’t be getting a lot more even with the X1... and at that price I may as well spend a little more and go with the larger sensor DVX200...

@BTM_Pix you make some great points in favor of the FZ2500 and side by side, I preferred the FZ2500 image over the UX180. But I would definitely have set up both cameras differently but since they are equally set up in that video, it was definitely a useful comparison. I still have a little more thinking to do here it seems.

@Bioskop.Inc I started screenwriting and acting in the 90s, so I have a bit of sentimentality for that aesthetic and form factor. To be honest, I went through my closet yesterday looking for something unrelated to filmmaking and it took me an hour to find it once I moved lenses and adapters and boxes of lenses and boxes of adapters. Quite frankly, I’m tired of all of the paraphernalia involved with filmmaking. A camcorder with a built in lens and Nd filters, with XLR inputs with the camcorder form factor just sounds really appealing to me right now... especially for a project idea I have been working on. I have a lens fetish, I love the tactile feel and the ability to slide into focus through peaking and I have that in spades with my 5D, but I really miss just grabbing a camera and getting the shot. I’ll still make short films in ML Raw, I love the image too much and I felt it has made me a more considerate filmmaker, but if I want a second camera (I do) I think I just want to keep it simple and I’m willing to pay for that simplicity. But I reserve the right to completely change my mind tomorrow and do a complete 180...

Not trite at all and a great point. I guess I’m wondering from an image quality perspective, will a camcorder hinder anything if I make a good film. Those samples I’ve posted look pretty, dare I say, cinematic, but I think I have a more forgiving eye than most people around here. As an FZ2500 owner, I was very interested in your thoughts on this BTM, so any thoughts you have... please throw my way.

Yes I was looking at them as well. But the Panasonic camcorders are the most appealing to me. Maybe it’s a leftover from my desire to make indie films with a P2 DVX True 24p camcorder back in the early 2000s but it also stems from my not so secret love of the FZ2500. The 1” camcorders seem like a cinema camera version of that camera. This next bit isn’t a direct reply to your statement as much as it is my own thoughts going forward with filmmaking... I have my 5D3 and I LOVE shooting ML Raw with it. And I will own that and shoot with it until it breaks in my hand but I will be the first to admit that on occasion it can be a slow process and gets annoying. I am so pleased with the image, I am more than willing to deal with the process and the storage. But... Since, I am a writer first, my whole point in getting into filmmaking was to tell my stories. In the process, I have become obsessed with the process even if I am not a natural cinematographer. With my desire to work on more films and longer ones, mixed with my style of run and gun, one man band filmmaking, having a second interchangeable lens camera system, sounds like an expensive and time consuming endeavor for someone who is mostly interested in telling stories first and cinematography second or third and audio tenth. An all in one system that a camcorder offers, with its built in lens and XLR inputs seems like it could be a good option. In a few months, I will have a little excess money to put towards some productions and I have some bold, big, Hail Mary plans and a camcorder could get me to the end credits a lot quicker and easier without too much of a loss in image quality. So right now I am just exploring all of my options before I make that investment, or decide to stay completely with ML Raw, so I was curious what the good people of EOSHD had to say. @kye and @Mattias Burling as you both may remember, I also had the XC10 and really loved the camera. It was just small enough to be inconspicuous with a great FHD image. I only shot in 4K once as a test. I liked it but I liked the 1080p just as much, so I rolled with that most of the time. I noticed this morning that it is selling at B&H for around $1300, so I assume that could be an option as well. I admittedly have a gear and lens fetish. I love the feel of vintage lenses. The manual focus rings are so smooth and the optics have such character and offer that shallow depth of field I have loved ever since my t2i days but I started making hobby short films back in 2004 with a Canon ZR65... or something... and I remember enjoying the process a little more back then. Or maybe it’s just nostalgia. I don’t know, there was something about grabbing the camera and getting the shot. It felt like an extension of my arm. And it had everything I needed right inside of a small handheld form factor.

Yeah they aren’t cheap but for an all in one solution. No lenses, no external recorders, built in NDs, camcorder AF and stabilization... hmm... I don’t know. I must admit, it sounds a little appealing to me.

I am shooting a short film this winter that is a mixture of regular narrative and newsreel footage. I was planning on using the FZ2500 because I have owned the camera twice, am quite familiar with it, and know what to expect out of it. But out of curiosity this morning I had a look at proper camcorders and was very surprised by the specs and the video quality of the 1” sensor higher end ($1500-$3000) options. Martin Wallgren has shot a few pieces with the Panasonic X1... Also I know Philip Bloom used a Sony NEX camcorder for his recent Skiathos cat video... I have more to say about this, but I have to run out and do some errands, so I’ll start this conversation with... Does anyone use camcorders for narratives?

I’m confused. I understand that Rec709 (for instance) only has so many visible stops but if you display one of those dynamic range charts in a Rec 709 space, you can clearly see more than 5 stops of DR. And there’s also the effect of DR on color tonality, highlight rolloff, etc. So it seems it is a little more complex than just to say you can only display so many stops in any specific space?

@jonpais Maybe, or I just don’t care enough. There are so many other things to worry about with the one man band films I am working on that if a m4/3 camera has a feature that could help me, I’ll use that camera, or if a FF camera has a feature I need, I’ll use that camera. I think the story will trump the format used. But that works for me, others have different needs and different intentions. But a lot of times it is also project specific. This winter I’m shooting a short that will benefit from the features of the FZ2500 and I’ll utilize the S16mm aesthetic when I plan my shots.

Me too. The original C100 just has a magical color science (excuse the oxymoron) As soon as I can find one for $1000 or less in good condition, I think I’ll buy one. I feel the same way about the 1DC... even if it is a 10 year old camera by the time it hits that price point.