mercer

I am shooting a short film this winter that is a mixture of regular narrative and newsreel footage. I was planning on using the FZ2500 because I have owned the camera twice, am quite familiar with it, and know what to expect out of it. But out of curiosity this morning I had a look at proper camcorders and was very surprised by the specs and the video quality of the 1” sensor higher end ($1500-$3000) options. Martin Wallgren has shot a few pieces with the Panasonic X1... Also I know Philip Bloom used a Sony NEX camcorder for his recent Skiathos cat video... I have more to say about this, but I have to run out and do some errands, so I’ll start this conversation with... Does anyone use camcorders for narratives?

I’m confused. I understand that Rec709 (for instance) only has so many visible stops but if you display one of those dynamic range charts in a Rec 709 space, you can clearly see more than 5 stops of DR. And there’s also the effect of DR on color tonality, highlight rolloff, etc. So it seems it is a little more complex than just to say you can only display so many stops in any specific space?

@jonpais Maybe, or I just don’t care enough. There are so many other things to worry about with the one man band films I am working on that if a m4/3 camera has a feature that could help me, I’ll use that camera, or if a FF camera has a feature I need, I’ll use that camera. I think the story will trump the format used. But that works for me, others have different needs and different intentions. But a lot of times it is also project specific. This winter I’m shooting a short that will benefit from the features of the FZ2500 and I’ll utilize the S16mm aesthetic when I plan my shots.

Me too. The original C100 just has a magical color science (excuse the oxymoron) As soon as I can find one for $1000 or less in good condition, I think I’ll buy one. I feel the same way about the 1DC... even if it is a 10 year old camera by the time it hits that price point.

Yeah Super 35 has taken off from the 90s... the 1890s. Honestly, I kinda find all of this irrelevant anyway. The only difference it makes for me is FOV for my lenses. But since I prefer 2:35 or 2:39, I end up cropping even more out of the frame. Anything between FF and M4/3 is pretty much acceptable. And if I am looking for a really different aesthetic, FF with no letterbox gives that vista vision look, or a one inch sensor will give that S16 look. None of it is exact and most people who watch movies would even notice the difference or even care. But there really is something cool about FF... I just wouldn’t make a purchase decision on that alone.

Cool, you know how to use Google too.

Yes it is definitely very inspiring. Maybe I misunderstood the article but it seems he filmed a section in the Summer of 2016 of the Fish Trapping video and then filmed the rest in the Spring of 2017. So I guess it was a mix of the two. Either way, the E-M1ii shorts are impressive as are his earlier E-M5ii. The E-M5ii can be bought used for less than $500 and refurbished from Olympus for around $600. The E-M1ii can be had for about twice that. So both cameras are good deals right now for a very interesting image... I would say filmic even. Plus, Olympus’ IBIS is freakishly good, almost to the point that it seems like you’re using a tripod while filming handheld. On another note, I find his audio capture methods, as a working, one man band professional, to be very interesting. Good find. Food for thought, as they say. EDIT: To add, I know a lot of people feel that the Panasonic FF or P4K with B-Raw are the deciding factors, but I’m more interested to see what Olympus does with the E-M5 Mark III. I believe John Brawley has stated that he has spoken to Olympus a lot about upping their video game, so I’d love to see if they go ahead with 10bit video or maybe even something more. As I’ve said in previously posts. I’m in the market for a second camera but I am in no rush... I could wait another 6 months to a year to see how things pan out... and I’d love to see Olympus get my money.

Thanks for posting this. Because of this I found an interesting article/interview about the filmmaker that explains his one man band process and the use of Olympus cameras. I think this video was mostly done with the E-M5ii... which is very impressive.

Yes, Panasonic bullied me back in grade school... but he was known as Sonic back then but it left a horrendous memory deep inside my psyche and the only way for me to get my dignity back is to make earth shattering inquiries about the GH5... But I never said everybody is dumping their GH5. I said a lot of people seem to be moving onto other cameras. I also questioned if Panasonic makes or made a profit on the GH5. We recently learned that Olympus loses money on every camera they sell in the US. We also know that Olympus sells more cameras than Panasonic... so... Just a conversation online. I am actually thinking about buying a GH5, so I have no ill will or intention.

Hmm, I know about 10-15, or so, narrative filmmakers, of varying levels, and I think maybe one or two of them have a GH5. Well, as Matthias already pointed out, Panasonic wasn’t the first with 4K. I believe Canon was the first to put 4K into a hybrid camera. And they were the first to do 4K 60p. But I digress, yes at the time, for a consumer/enthusiast camera, yes I think Panasonic was silly to put 4K into the GH4. And they will be not only silly but offensive if they try to push the market to 8K only 4 years later. IMO.

What’s wrong with your GH5?

I meant recorded internally. So if the camera has a mic input, then go to town and use it. I think the idea is to see how much one can do with the minimum. So by limiting technical options, we’ll be forced to think creatively. If you’re not familiar with Kendy Ty’s work (I’m sure you are) here’s what he was capable of with a t2i, one lens and available light. I assume he used an external recorder but I’d prefer if we limited ourselves even more... but I’m not the boss here, so I’m open to ideas?

And yeah, that’s the problem with the G85. They still sell for around $700 around here, at that price I can spend a little more (relatively speaking) and get the G9 which has headphone input and 4K 60p. At that point, the heart of the challenge is kinda gone I suppose. As far as the challenge goes, I say it is a Fall/Winter challenge where each person is challenged to do at least one or two if you’re bold short film/documentary/music video at 5 minutes or less. I’d prefer it to be 1080p but 4K is acceptable and I’d prefer it to be a single lens (preferably a prime) zoom or prime is acceptable. Audio should be in camera and any lighting should be portable enough to fit in a camera bag (I’m gonna try and use available light as much as possible. I’m also going to try and do more than one. I still have my EOS-M in the back of my closet, so I will probably use that in conjunction with ML Bitrate Hack to do a locked down shirt with a c-mount lens. And then for my second one, I may get one of the cameras I mentioned above for IBIS and possibly 4K... of course I am seeing that the E-M5ii are going for $500 or less now as well... so maybe I’ll stick to 1080p. Anyway, sorry to the OP, if this is getting off track. Thanks for this. I had a discussion with BTM a while back about the expo disk and he was telling me you can use them to set exposure as well... if I’m remembering the conversation properly. And thanks for the X-Rite tip. I’m using a 2014 MacBook Air and it has been a headache getting accurate color out of it. Using the internal Mac color calibration tool will get me there sometimes but then other times it will be way off. As much as I’d love to get a GH5 and a Sankor 16c anamorphic, or a P4K, my money will be better spent this year updating my computer and my audio equipment, so a cheaper 2nd hybrid/glovebox cam will have to do.

Marty, that sounds awesome, I look forward to seeing your recent work. I still watch your bicycle short, from the G6, on occasion and is a major influence on my desire to shoot short pieces on older, cheaper cams. I’m very much still interested in an 8bit short film challenge but I can’t agree to no IBIS... that is probably one of my prerequisites for one of these cams. As I said, I’m definitely buying an FZ2500 for a film project this winter but I wouldn’t use that for our challenge. Honestly I’m really looking forward to digging out my c-mounts and see them get some use with IBIS. So I guess, it will be down to the E-M5ii, the E-M10iii (my friend has one and I’ve been really impressed with his results and Olympus is selling refurbished units for less than $400) and then finally maybe the G85. The G85 makes a lot of sense because the 4K crop allows me to use my 12.5mm c-mounts with IBIS and gives me a microphone input. Maybe internal audio should be a rule for the challenge as well?

I don’t think it’s a derail. You’re showing some footage from an inexpensive camera that you already own... if that isn’t the heart of this post, I don’t know what is. It could be my phone but it seems YouTube did a hatchet job on that video. I can tell how good it looks from the thumbnail but the video is ton of artifacts and pixelation. I’ll have a look on my computer in a few minutes. I love the handheld IBIS though.

Do you think an expo disk is better than using an X-Rite? I’ve never used either but I am considering an X-Rite as I progress more into my short films.

To add, if you want to try a fun camera, pick up an FZ2500. I’ve had two of them and I regret selling both. I have a very specific project I’m working on this winter and chances are I’ll be buying a third one. There’s just something really special about CineLikeD with a S16 sized sensor.

With an eff around camera, I am leaning toward something with IBIS, so I’d probably look at the G85 or an Olympus instead of the G7, but yes, the G7 is still one of the best deals around!!! @Dan Sherman I think I was agreeing with you even if it didn’t read that way. Theoretically a router should be a better tool than a chisel for a dovetail joint but some of the old timers could take a chisel, sharpen it on some concrete and make a perfect dovetail joint in a pinch. It’s quite astonishing to witness. I agree about tools. Using Final Draft to write a screenplay is way more inspiring than creating a word document. It’s intuitive and lets your brain concentrate on the creative. I look forward to seeing what you get out of the GX85, in a lot of ways it will be more fun than shooting with the P4K. I really enjoy your LS300 videos, so I’m sure the GX85 ones will look great.

I had the G7 for a while and had a lot of fun with it. I really learned that I was horrible at color grading by owning that camera. Here’s a frame grab from one of my more successful jobs with the G7 and an old Cosmicar 25mm c-mount lens...

But have they? It seems that only 18 months after release, a lot of GH5 users are abandoning the camera for other brands. At $2000, it was very expensive for a m4/3 camera, no matter how much they gave you. And I still don’t really know if they have made any profit from the GH5? Instead, I see a FF Panasonic as a, me too, attempt to get into an increasingly competitive market and if the rumors are correct, it won’t be a cheap cover charge. And then this jump to higher MPs which I assume is for their silly desire to bring 8K video to market. A 12mp a7siii killer with IBIS and lowlight video would have been a way better foray into FF in my opinion. As the rumors suggest, no IBIS, no PDAF, no retro fitted FF lenses (well maybe some Leica if they use that mount) and no existing Professional photographer user base and I just don’t understand what a high MP FF camera from Panasonic is supposed to accomplish. Now if it has internal Raw, it will have my attention. At $3000+ it may just be a double take though.

Being a cabinet maker by trade, I can tell you first hand that that statement is not entirely true. A craftsman will make any tool work. Sure better tools are always helpful, but a master at his craft will improvise and make any tool work. I often reference Kendy Ty and what he did with a t2i and the OG Sigma 30mm lens. It was truly astonishing work and holds up today. I actually prefer the look of his t2i films over his a6300 films. Technically, the a6300 image is better but there is something missing. I often muse about getting a second camera and I instantaneously gravitate toward a GH5 or a Fuji or even a C100 or FS5 because they give me something I don’t have with my 5D3, but deep down, I really just want one of the cheapest cameras I can find. Something that will require me to massage the image. In the end, that improvisation will make me a better craftsman... I think. A year or so ago, myself, @PannySVHS and @mat33 discussed a short film challenge involving 8bit 1080p cameras. As most challenges usually die, so did this, but I often think about going back to the idea of challenging myself with an entry level camera. The D3400 has a Flat Profile. The EOS-M has the ML bitrate hack, obviously the GH1/GH2 hacks. The E-M5ii has some of the best IBIS around with a nice Flat Profile and an all-i codec. Or maybe a GX85 hacked by @BTM_Pix for CineLikeD used in conjunction with @Sage ‘s brilliant emotive color could be equally appealing. Anyway, I appreciate the sentiment by the OP and as my end of summer GAS calls out to me, maybe I’ll once again explore one of these options instead of dropping thousands of dollars on a new system I don’t really need.

I wonder how many people will buy an UMP now along with the P4K? If I had that kind of money, I may consider it. Yup and that’s why I think it will be interesting in the BMVAs... C200, FS5, FS7. I’ve been watching some FS5 videos lately and I really like internal 10bit and the external ProRes Raw looks good as well, if a BMVA gets BRaw, the FS5 could be a better option than even a UMP with 14 stops and sLog3. Btw, when were you planning on comparing BRaw with Canon RawLite? I’m really looking forward to seeing that.

I was wondering the same thing. That would open it up to the C200 as well because it outputs a 2K 10bit Raw signal through its SDI.

I thought I read that it has the same sensor as the BMPC4K but I could be wrong. And I don’t know if it’s a fact that BRaw will end up in that camera. Someone on BMCuser said they “thought” or “learned” that BRaw was coming to the entire Mini line before it will be implanted in the P4K. But maybe it’s just the 4.6 line... IDK. The Micro is dropping in price on the used market as well, I’m almost tempted to buy one of those and hope BRaw gets in there. With the unique multi-use function of the Micro, for drones and crash cams, it may be something worth doing for BM... unless they are planning a M4K in the future.

It looks great! And maybe a little sharper? Do you use LUTS, I always really like your grades, muted earth tones, really organic look. Oh yeah, did you test BRaw with SD cards?