Django

LOL.. there is no catch.. all they are saying here is that 16-bit ARRIRAW can be converted to 12-bit ARRIRAW. RAW is RAW though, nothing is baked-in.. again their CS is an ensemble of things: To create such outstanding images, all components of the imaging chain are custom designed by our engineers and carefully tuned for optimal performance, starting with the optical low pass filter, the CMOS sensor, the imaging electronics, and the image processing software. .. do not under-estimate the "custom" factor here. As just discussed above, the 2xADC (DGO) tech alone is revolutionary and game-changing. It took 10 years for Canon to even notice and reverse-engineer it. GH6 is apparently also trying to copy that albeit with a different method. Pal, please don't make this into a small guy VS corp situation. I know you think I'm your enemy here but believe me there is no "luxury" in this field at the moment, more like do or die... that said I actually encourage you to challenge anything that isn't clear or dubious to you. that's how you learn and debate is good for all of us, so thank you my man.. keep it coming 😉 to answer your question, what I've been trying to tell you is that one of the main benefits of high resolution..is actually to help in "difficult situations" i.e. reframing/stabilization/still extraction. No one is actually delivering 6K/8K outside of mastering for future-proof archiving. a very good point made above though is that +6K could be a hinder to things like DGO tech and makes me understand/reconsider why ARRI (obvious IQ leader) isn't in any rush to go there...

Indeed CineD reports 12.8-13.9 of DR on Canon's DGO sensor vs 13.8-14.8 on Alexa ALEV sensor. That's a stop under for the Canon's which is pretty impressive. On latitude test the Canon DGO also comes closest to ALEV with a 2-stop difference. What's most impressive is that these Canon results are on the 10-bit XFAVC codec. Canon claim upcoming RAW update on C70 will increase DR, could be PR we'll have to see.. RED/Sony/Panny are still imo worthy competitors. For RS (or lack thereof on Komodo) and resolution. You do make a strong point about +6K resolution bottlenecking DGO type DR. Makes better sense why C70/C300III didn't aim above 4K..

No, check out the Petapixel article I linked, this isn't a new finding and predates even video capabilities of the Fujis: it is known as the "Fuji watercolour effect". Fuji apply heavy chroma NR in their Jpeg/h264/h265 engine for their immune-to-moiré claims of the X-Trans CFA. I assume they do the same in the GFX100 as that model does not have an optical low-pass filter despite being a Bayer sensor (Fuji claim its megapixel count is so high it can resolve complex textures with little to no moiré effects). Not sure if this chroma NR applies to GFX100 Jpegs or 4K video only.

Canon have managed to reverse-engineer the tech: Canon has published its white paper regarding the technology implemented on its newest cameras (C300 Mark III and C70) which is the Dual Gain Output (DGO) that allows 16 stops of dynamic range. The technology utilizes the same concept being used in the ARRI cameras for more than 10 years. Learn more below. https://ymcinema.com/2020/09/27/canon-releases-the-dual-gain-output-dgo-4k-sensor-white-paper/

Arri's website: https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/technology/image-processing Already gave you my thoughts on that.. I shoot RAW/Log, have certified Davinci Trainer experience, work in an ACES workflow, create my own LUTs from scratch, use power grades, film curves, film stock etc.. and when that's not enough, I hire a pro colourist.. so yeah colour matters to me lol.. but does X/Y/Z CS hold me back in any way? Nope. I think the difference between us is as a pro I'm simply not obsessed with matching ARRI CS. Neither are all those you referenced on Netflix that shoot on RED, Varicams, Venices etc. The goal is to have a clear vision for each project/scene. It's then up to DoP, lighting & color grading to take us there. Obviously this greatly varies depending on the budget/job type/talent. Another way to go is creating and loading custom LUTs directly in-cam. Well they messed up / crippled V-Log, a paid upgrade. So until we know more details, I'll remain skeptical. Again with these assumptions. I'm not always working under controlled environments. Plenty of run&gun / docu experience under my belt. I'd never pick a BM for that type of work though. Uncontrolled environment is when I want built-in ND's, DR latitude, flexible ISO/DGO, IBIS/EIS, PDAF etc.

Stick to Canon RAW if you want good colour 😉 Seriously, I dunno looks like GFX's X-Processor 4 engine also applies insane amount of chroma NR?

Arri's overall image is an ensemble of things: To create such outstanding images, all components of the imaging chain are custom designed by our engineers and carefully tuned for optimal performance, starting with the optical low pass filter, the CMOS sensor, the imaging electronics, and the image processing software. The image processing step comes after the RAW image data: Nothing is "baked" into an ARRIRAW image: Image processing steps like de-Bayer, white balance, sensitivity, up-sampling or down-sampling, which are irreversibly applied in-camera for compressed recording, HD-SDI outputs, and the viewfinder image, are not applied to ARRIRAW. All these parameters can be applied to the image in post. ARRIRAW converter allows you to apply these image processing parameters to output ProRes 422/444 LogC files. You can also do it in-camera directly when shooting ProRes. Their actual color science isn't secret: We openly publish our color science as standard SMPTE documents (Recommended Disclosure Document (RDD) 30:2014 and RDD 31:2014). Ok but have you actually worked using Alexa/RED/BM/Canon RAW footage on an actual project? Because I have. I ask this, because out of all your researching you still seem to not grasp many basic aspects concerning RAW, Log & ProRes. It sounds to me like you are mostly interested in matching your (GH5) camera footage to.. an Alexa. That's a fair intent and I'm sure you learn a great deal about CS & colour grading in the process but if that is your ultimate goal then perhaps buying Emotive Color matrix power grade will help you more? Well, first off not every camera uses Sony sensors. Canon produce their own. And second, each brand and subsequent camera model has its own image processing, codec choice, log curve, colour matrix, optical lowpass filter (or lack of i.e Fuji XTrans) etc. It took a while for DSLR/MILC hybrids to disengage from the photo side and fully bring all the cine elements to their video modes but we're getting there now with RAW/10-bit Log/ProRes etc. DR/RS keep getting better. I do think the gap is closing, even if ARRI/RED are still ahead. ProRes is just a codec. A damn good one (especially ProRes 4444 XQ) but it's a lossy baked-in codec as are h264/h265. Now how a camera decides to encode these codecs from RAW is where the whole image processing happens. Adding sharpness to match the look of RAW on a compressed codec is a well known technique. Has nothing to do with ProRes itself. Personally, I like to convert RAW myself and have full control on things like sharpness or NR. ARRIRAW has a bunch of conversion settings, including precise sharpness, detail & NR but also various de-bayering algorithms that all shape the look. Again ProRes is just a codec. It's a pro standard and insures certain bitrates and bit-depths. Like any compressed codec it is useful for file-size and fast turnaround. Not every project allows you the luxury of storing & converting RAW footage. That said, ProRes remains lossy and image processed vs. RAW. Saying it's indistinguishable from RAW is plain wrong. RAW can be pushed in almost infinite ways compared to ProRes. Especially if you bake in a Rec709 profile instead of Log to your ProRes output.

Agreed. Competition has caught up since 5 years ago and playing field has levelled as far as codecs. Just about every cam does high bitrate 10-bit 4:2:2. Nikon now has internal NRAW/ProRes, Canon has CRL/XFAVC. BMD BRAW/ProRes. Its great GH6 has ProRes but its basically to be expected. I also think they should have RAW internal by now. So should Sony (especially on FX6/FX9). There are couple Komodo users here. Personally I'd rather rent when it comes to those types of sensor in a box cine cams. No NDs, XLR inputs, EIS etc means a crew and when you're at that budget, renting makes more sense imo. C300 mk3? Well other than costing $11K and weighing a ton, the C70 is a much wiser and popular investment especially now that it's getting RAW via free firmware update next month. You're basically getting C300mk3 IQ for half the price. Combine that with an R5C and you've got a pretty versatile and future proof hybrid combo for less than a C300mk3.

Ok rather than blame Sony or high-resolution etc.. Let's try and actually tackle the actual IQ/CS situation to understand the bottlenecks and what's at stake shall we? There is much more to CS than sensor manufacturing. Sony make sensors for Sony/Nikon/Fuji/Panasonic yet they all fine tune to their respective CS through image processing. And CS evolves.. for better or for worst depending on personal preference. Some people prefer pre-GH5 color gamuts. Same with Canon, some miss the 5D3/C100/1DC CS.. fortunately Canon bodies allow to set the log color matrix to "Cinema EOS original" or the more ARRI inspired CS "neutral". You get to decide. Every camera manufacturer has its own golden standard. For Sony its Venice and A7S3/FX3/FX6/FX9 allow proper Venice S-gamut3.cine in log but also S-cinetone profile for a baked-in Venice look. For Panasonic, their gold standard is obviously Varicam. But what some may not realise is that GH5's Vlog-L doesn't operate in V-Gamut but in Rec709. So it's kind of a fake Varicam CS. Also seems to dead-end ACES workflow with no appropriate IDT support from Panny AFAIK. You have to step up to S1H for proper V-Log/V-Gamut. ARRI -the Hollywood gold standard- Log C uses Alexa Wide Gamut (AWG) with either 10-bit ProRes 422 or 12-bit ProRes 4444 XQ. AWG works in a much larger colour space than Rec709. The encoding was done with a complete and deep ACES workflow in mind. This whole relationship is what makes for a class-leading grading platform. Other important IQ related aspects are in-camera sharpening and NR. Both seemed to plague GH5. Will be interesting to see if GH6 tackles some of these issues.. we still know nothing of the actual ProRes flavours or if Log is still Vlog-L or proper Vlog/VGamut...

By the way no need to prove that RAW files hold the missing colour information as the article already states that: On the bright side, it has been shown here that much more color information can be extracted from the raw sensor data than FujiFilm’s in-camera processing is currently capable of. The alternative is to shoot RAW. Which is fine, but demosaicking X-Trans files is less efficient than demosaicking Bayer files—anyone who as tried it knows this translates to a much slower workflow. Plus you lose all of that “color science” too, because, sadly (shamefully, in my opinion), FujiFilm does not publish color profiles for their sensors nor embed the color matrices in the RAW files as some other manufacturers do. Unfortunately, RAW video hasn’t yet made it to Fuji cameras so it seems likely you are stuck with this issue as you can’t bypass the in-cam heavy chroma NR in the compressed h264/h265.

All I’m saying to you is that it’s a well documented issue and that article details exactly what’s going on, the reason why and potential solutions Fuji has yet to adopt except by going Bayer on GFX series: The reason that FujiFilm hasn’t fixed the Waxy Skin-Tone problem after all these years and three camera generations is simply that they can’t—not without a significant, breakthrough advancement of their algorithms. They made a proverbial deal with the devil with their immune-to-moiré claims for the X-Trans CFA. If they get rid of the moiré, people will complain about waxy skin tones, and if they get rid of the waxy skin tones, people will complain about moiré (but, hey, they never made marketing claims about not making people look like wax figures or wooden dolls, so it’s no surprise which problem they’ve prioritized.) Certainly, more sophisticated moiré suppression algorithms could do better at sparing skin and faces where the color smoothing is most objectionable (but could they ever recognize chicken skin, I wonder?). Will Fuji ever invest any time or money in that kind of optimization? Especially with reviewers constantly praising their JPEG engine (from a comfortable distance and without wearing their spectacles)? In the future, I sincerely hope that FujiFilm stops producing sensors with the X-Trans CFA. I am convinced that the X-Trans CFA causes more problems (many) than it solves (none) and FujiFilm could have well known this from computer simulations before ever manifesting it physically. If the GFX 50s is any indication, then the next generation of X-series cameras may indeed utilize a Bayer CFA. In the meantime, a firmware update to give users the option to customize the chroma NR/moiré removal strength ramp ourselves in camera (like some other manufacturers do with their High ISO NR customization) could alleviate the problem for users who consider the lifelike rendition of human faces more important than complete freedom from moiré. I challenge FujiFilm to offer a solution.

@Attila Bakos Not really necessary. This article breaks it down, it has to do with Xtrans & Fuji’s heavy chroma NR jpeg engine : https://petapixel.com/2017/01/27/x-trans-promise-problem/

So looks like I was right, it is because of Xtrans vs Bayer sensor.. again google « Fuji watercolour effect » you’ll find plenty of talk about it..

That is with battery and memory, GH6 weighs 823g with those included. A far cry from OM-1’s 511g, the exact same weight as it’s original 1972 35mm counterpart! Gotta love that attention to detail..

https://www.43rumors.com/gh6-vs-gh5-size-comparison/ https://www.43rumors.com/this-is-the-full-panasonic-gh6-spec-sheet/ dimensions & weight are at the bottom of the spec sheet.

comp was already done in the leak video..

Right well you just kinda proved my point about AF being crucial if you're considering switching entire systems. I understand wanting compact/light especially if you're on the FF Panasonic system (one of the bulkiest/heaviest) but it shouldn't come at the expense of sub-par AF, especially if you're a hybrid shooter. This is where OM-1 seems to fit the bill with a lightweight body (510 grams), a class-leading quad-pixel AF system, 10-bit LOG 4K60p / 240fps FHD, BSI sensor, 8 stop IBIS and a bunch of computational wizardry allowing 50MP and such.

..but the size & weight factor now goes out the window with GH6!!! The body is bigger and heavier than Canon R6 or Sony A7IV. Both FF cameras that shoot high bitrate 10-bit internally and are in the $2.5K range..

Yes different strokes for different folks but let me just inform you that outside these recent debates you effectively know nothing about me or my shooting history so please keep those false assumptions to yourself. FYI, I've shot MFT since 2012 on the BM Cinema Camera MFT. That camera actually got me my first silver screen projection and standing ovation so believe me MFT holds a special place and is somewhat of a highlight in my career. As a pro, I navigate between a variety of brands, sensor sizes, resolutions etc. I thought I already made that clear to you. I use what the project requires. Shot a TV commercial last month with 20K€ cine glass. Obviously AF didn't matter at all to me on that project, and that's because we had a full crew on hand including obviously a 1st AC on focus pulling duties. Now the GH series, at least in my mind, was never fully in that 100% cine cam category. It's a hybrid mirrorless. People also expect to shoot stills from a hybrid and therefore have reliable AF. What made it popular for video users was that Panasonic constantly added great cine features in every model that DSLR/Mirrorless weren't yet doing. And that at a very aggressive price point. Fast-forward to the GH5 and many of my pro shooting peers who were mostly on A7S2, switched to GH5 for that 10-bit recording. Some even bought 2 or 3 for multi-cam solo operation. That become rather tricky though due to the AF. As Sony/CaNikon hybrids now closed the gap with 10-bit on their latest-gen cams, many have now switched back to those systems with bigger sensors, bigger lens selection and reliable AF. And my personal feeling is its going to take more than ProRes for them to go back to MFT, especially considering the hefty price rumored tag of GH6. That's not to say GH6 is trash, far from that. I just think it comes a bit late, without the usual exclusive cine feature (ProRes is great and counts but its already present on BMD/Nikon cams and 10-bit ALL-I high bitrate codecs are available throughout the competition) and last but not least AF is still DFD which stings even more with the OM1 announcement very strategically placed timing wise. Just my perspective from the leaked specs, nothing definitive so make of it what you will. YMMV. Andrew will surely have a full write-up after the official announcement next week, his analysis as an active GH6 user and longtime GH supporter will surely be much more relevant. Looking forward to it like most of you I'm sure!

Agreed, my Leica M9 is by far the closest to film camera I own. Not just noise but also image thickness and colors. It just nails that film look. Digital Bolex (arguably the camera with most lo-fi mojo) also used the Kodak CCD. Another great benefit from CCD was global shutter. But sadly the DR & ISO spec race killed CCD in favor of CMOS.

Same here.. never thought I'd be impressed over a MFT Olympus but one can't deny they've been very smart with the timing of this release! Quad-Pixel AF is such a breakthrough. But it remains to be seen exactly how good it is on video (smoothness & stickiness). Most of these "bleeding-edge AI and processing" features seem photo oriented. DCI 4K60p, LOG and 10-bit are all nice but to be expected and that low bitrate is a concern. How that log footage holds up and grades will be key but overall on the video side, GH6 should logically have a very clear advantage.. except on AF, which of course could be a deal breaker for many (and not so much for a hand few).

Why always bring ARRI in every single discussion lol? The OG Alexa dropped twelve years ago, is a Mammoth size cam built for Hollywood standards and costs six-figures when paired along ARRI lenses. it couldn’t be further away removed from this topic. It’s like comparing a Rolls Royce and a three-door electric Honda. The former has no competition, lives in its own class and reputation, while the later is all about specs, current market and value.. Again OM-1 introduces Quad-Pixel DPAF.. something Canon has been planning for years but hasn’t even yet implemented on its flagship R3. That’s a pretty big deal that took the whole industry by surprise. One can only applaud OM systems. But on the other hand that just makes Panasonic and GH6’s still DFD contrast AF system a bit of a head scratcher. Sorry to say. Although maybe the reasoning is GH fans simply don’t care about AF? On the basis that ARRI Alexa users don’t seem bothered by its absence either ! 😆

I wish things were different as well but what I expect in 2022 from a +$2K MFT camera is absolute innovation, IQ and speed. Give us S35/FF shooters a major incentive to revert to a smaller sensor. It probably wouldn’t sting so bad if it weren’t from a MFT camera nobody was expecting: OM-1. Now that camera really delivers. Quad-fuckin-pixel AF. A first! Also brings live-NDs, computational photography, AI AF etc.. That’s not to say GH6 doesn’t improve or bring valuable features to the table (namely ProRes & that wide DR mode) but is that going to be enough? Why is the AF still lagging and not stellar on version 6? Lets wait & see, a spec sheet may not tell the whole story but again OM-1 sort of stole the GH6 thunder away by raising that MFT bar pretty high!

hmmm, no idea then but what I do remember was being shocked at how poorly Fuji files handled the red channel vs Canon. I also had a 5D3 at that time and would do side by sides with my XT2 and it was night & day. It would drive me nuts!

Isn't this similar to what Fuji still users refer to as the "watercolor" or "worm" effect , especially present on foliage? If so it basically has to do with the X-Trans sensor vs Bayer sensors. I left Fuji system years ago (and partly because of such artifacts and color issues) but search for "fuji watercolor effect" and you'll find tons of talk about it..