Django

Never shot MF but I sure do like the look of it, especially MF film. I always thought digital medium format was more about super high MP, better DR/ISO performance etc? Also the native 4:3 aspect ratio and lack of AA filter is great for landscape. And of course the exclusive lens systems (Fuji, Hasselbad, Pentax, Mamiya). Speaking of different sensor sizes, I had really mixed results when shooting on APS-C during my Fuji XT2 period. Mainly because my favorite focal length in photography is 35mm and a 23mm lens just doesn't give the same look (due to distortion etc) even if the APS-C crop gives you a 35mm focal length equivalency. The 56mm f1.2 was great though. Also when adapting the lack of vignetting and overall characteristics of a FF lens were gone. Probably why the "magic" or mojo goes away when shooting crop sensors. I can totally imagine how on the reverse end how FF lenses might look even better on a MF sensor. Hopefully one day will bite the bullet!

The delay is there because the camera essentially reboots to a whole other OS when you switch modes. Think of it as windows/Mac boot OS on a single computer. I think its an ok tradeoff considering all the video options you benefit from the full C line OS (assist tools, shutter angle, LUT import etc). Panasonic gives you a lot of that in their hybrid OS but Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji never and I hate that. It's true that for hybrid shooters that need to switch modes at the blink of an eye (sports, action, news, wedding etc) an R3, Z9, A7S3, S1 would probably be better suited. For all others including myself that don't switch modes so often and can accept an 8 sec delay it's a complete non-issue and a well-worthy tradeoff.

Well at least it's got people talking. What are we on the 14th page of a product announced 5 days ago? A7IV thread I started early September barely got to page 3?! Snooze. Let's face it, this isn’t a very exciting time for the industry, still recovering from the on-going pandemic. Talking tech is part of doing the research, this isn’t exactly an affordable expense either.. That said, Canon is definitely the most polarising camera company when it comes to video. And rightfully so with all the shenanigans we’ve lived through the years (blocking ML, being slow to adapt to mirrorless and of course the most recent overheat-gate). But their strategy seems to be shaken up by RF mount, as they are eager to get people on-board including EF body Canon customers. The C70 with the Raw update will basically have the same exact IQ than the $11K C300 mk3. And this 5RC? cmon it packs a lot of heat (pun intended) for a price point much lower than expected: 8K60, 5.9K, 4K DCI, 2.9K. RAW Light options, XF-AVC, full cine OS with WFM, false color etc. No overheating, no recording time limits. 45MP still monster. It’s actually the highest resolution cine line product yet priced at entry-level. Crazy. Perfect though, no. No IBIS & micro-HDMI. No ND’s (then again no hybrid does). Not too many gotchas imo. YMMV.

Oh I don't deliver nor expect to deliver anything in 8K soon but I can certainly notice the increase in resolution of 6K/8K footage or 6K/8K oversampled 4K footage vs 1:1 4K even on a laptop screen. Of course on my 5K iMac Pro the difference becomes crystal clear. Also keep in mind R5C also shoots 5.9K which sounds like a good middle ground resolution option. Sharpness isn't the main allure of 6K/8K for me though but rather the cropping possibilities. Even on a simple talking head interview. But also on product shots where you can zoom, pan etc from a static shot. Basically the same type of tricks 4K allows when you're delivering HD but twice the crop amount and/or for 4K delivery. So I definitely could see where I take advantage of those +4K resolutions. I do hear what you mean about 8K footage looking too sharp/video but the key to alleviate that is using older/softer glass. All the R5 YT demos are using the super sharp/clinical RF glass. But pop even a EF 50 1.2L or older vintage FD lenses and you're probably in for a treat. For 8K stills, of course you might have to adapt shutter speed to avoid blur but the results can be quite nice: https://www.lauschsicht.ch/2022/01/19/canon-eos-r5c-erster-eindruck-review-und-film/ Still just on a IQ level, C70's DR & the low shadow noise and overall cinematic IQ of the C300II DGO sensor is definitely something to consider over 6K/8K resolution. The low DR on my R6 definitely limits certain types of shots, how you expose etc.

I have several FF cameras including an R6 so yeah I guess I'm good on the photo side, plus I don't really need 45MP. R5C's 8K Raw though is a big deal as far as future proofing and the stills you can extract from 8K Raw are very usable. On a IQ level, I think the biggest C70 criticism was the image being a bit soft compared to cameras that oversample, have RAW or have higher resolution like the BMPCC6K. I'm expecting the upcoming RAW to really lift that veil by adding significant sharpness/detail which is going to be important on a '4K only' camera. But of course the NDs, audio, battery life, and the C300II DGO sensor are indeed the big pluses that also make me lean towards C70. The lack of EVF isn't a deal breaker to me as I never use them on these types of compact bodies. Only on my FS7 when it's in shoulder mount "ENG" rig position.

More biased hearsay. Netflix always pushes for highest resolution and hence most popular Netflix shows like Stranger Things or Zack Snyders Army of the Dead were shot on RED Monstro 8K: The Cameras Behind Popular Netflix Originals: Films and Series Of course ARRI get used but Varicam LT & Venice are probably even more popular due to form factor etc. In the end though, it's easy to base your CS reference point from your favorite show/film but again the actual camera used is only part of the equation, most of the "magic" happens in post with the pro colorist grading the footage. Here is an article about going FF on Ozark with the Venice, a very grade-heavy show. The DP states: "It’s been tough with the 4K camera equipment requirement, you’re basically looking at RED or Panasonic Varicam. The last few years have been amazing for cinematographers to have new choices.” How the Sony VENICE Evolved the Look of ‘Ozark’ And that was already 2 years ago. Today Netflix are pushing +4K capture. In short, ARRI isn't the only game in town..

I know seeing that you almost have to wonder how much better can it get? That DGO sensor is incredible. The DR, the rolloff, the super clean shadows.. Agreed, although R5's 8K RAW is impressive. I'm still tempted to lean in favour of C70 as far as IQ champ just cuz of that sensor. Especially with RAW around the corner.

LOL, I'm very familiar with 5D3 ML RAW. Shot with it for years. It had mojo sure! But so does the R series, and as a pro owner I think I'm qualified to "jump in" the discussion. I'm visibly not alone thinking R5/R5C has great CS/skintones. Actually the people claiming poor skin tones etc don't seem to be Canon shooters, including yourself. I'm just curious and challenging these comments. It's ok we don't have to agree, it's a subjective matter. But what are these views based upon? Random YT videos? Mushy old FHD 8-bit 5D3 compressed footage? I'm just trying to understand the point of reference. Again the point seems moot because R5/R5C has RAW in many flavours if 10-bit 4:2:2 log isn't good enough for your taste. Or is ARRI Alexa & 5D3 ML RAW the only worthy contenders of good skin tones in your playbook? If that's case you might be setting yourself up for eternal disappointment.

Your assumption is faulty because you are basing yourself on 5D3, a 2013 camera that had very soft FHD as it used pixel binning (resolution was closer to 720p) and on top of that had 8-bit compressed files with no log option. The IQ jump from that to 14-bit ML RAW was colossal. Now the R5/R5C is light-years away from that. The compressed files have super chunky bitrates, downsample from 8K and we have 10-bit 4:2:2 Clog3. Pop those files in Resolve, and grade your heart away. The image holds. Beautiful skin tones can be achieved. Use "neutral" instead of default "Eos cinema" in the Log color matrix options and you've got Canon's ARRI emulation. Pop an ARRI lut and with minor tweaks you are almost there. Now of course going RAW unlocks the full IQ potential. No doubt about that. But again the 10-bit compressed files a more than usable and imo have more mojo than Sony as you can turn off NR unlike A7S3/FX3. In any case you have every option in R5C, shoot RAW or compressed with many bitrate/codec/resolution options. I agree with most of your points but the thing is, we're not all the same types of shooters. Which is why indeed there is no perfect camera... for everyone or every situation. Hence the lack of consensus on a forum like this. Obviously some people can't live without IBIS. Others can't without a decent PDAF system. etc We can also talk aesthetics all day but its such a subjective/endless topic. In the end this R5C is either for you or it isn't. Many other options out there. Not many options when it comes to 8K RAW on a hybrid though. Either this or Z9. Problem with Z9 is Zero effort seems to be done on the video OS side. The brilliant thing about R5C imo is that its two camera systems in one. R line and C line fused (or rather split) together. That is something new and unique that sort of redefines hybrid shooting.

So what have we learned here today? Canon SOOC CS pales in front of an Alexa.. and its EIS can't compete with a 1/2" sensor Gopro? Fair points lol. We can talk ARRI CS all day.. but let's be real 99.9% of the footage you see from an Alexa has been professionally graded by a (Hollywood) colorist. You out of ALL people here knows this. That's what really sets it in a parallel universe, not just the cost of the camera itself. Without even getting into pro lighting, cine lenses etc. So what exactly is your beef with Canon CS? Please develop, genuinely curious. There are tons of Canon Raw vs ARRI Raw tests out there. The CS isn't really that different. DR & highlight roll-off are much bigger IQ factors. The dreaded "video look" is imo really mostly SOOC Rec709 profiles, poor lighting/exposure/grading/shutter angle, lenses etc. Please feel free to challenge these thoughts.. I consider myself pretty brand agnostic but at this point in the debate I'm really just curious, what gear do you actually own/shoot/recommend?

That 8K RAW footage is really superb, especially with landscape shots like that. Love how the red pops, always a trademark of Canon CS. Even the stills from the 8K footage are usable for web and maybe even print: https://www.lauschsicht.ch/2022/01/19/canon-eos-r5c-erster-eindruck-review-und-film/ Camera Labs tested 53mn of 8K24p shooting, which isn't bad at all. Add a battery grip and it gets quite decent. ProAV also demo'd "power base" alternatives that you can use with dummy battery:

Exactly. Not only did Canon pave the way for 8K but also internal RAW, the holy grail people have been asking for since 5D2.. and now that its here, with compressed LT options even, people are still bitching the file sizes are too big etc. The funniest is hearing Panasonic users moaning about how the R5C uses DPAF1.. Canon just can't win here no matter what it seems!

Documentaries like that wouldn't be shot in RAW but rather 422 10-bit. If you must shoot in RAW and you wanna half the 1Gbps bitrate, you could compromise with 5.9K at 556mbps or even 2.9K at 144mbps (Super16). There are really a bunch of options on this camera, I don't understand the fuss about codecs & resolution. I don't know what you tubers you're referring to but I'm basing my opinion on actual years of shooting with Canon gear. I've gone through most their cameras since 5DM2 including Cinema line and the compressed codec have always been impressive to me compared to other cameras compressed codecs, that includes the C100 24mbps codec! To me -shot and graded properly- the R5/R6 have excellent overall IQ. No problems there. The 10-bit 4:2:2 C-Log compressed codec are fine and color/skin-tone wise I prefer it to BlackMagic CS. I was even going to buy a C70 before it even had Canon RAW. that goes to show you ho much I believe in their compressed codecs. From what I've been seeing (and know from C200) is that CRL does bring out more sharpness & detail and obviously 12-bit color. So shooting Canon RAW is of course a major IQ benefit if you can handle file size & workflow. And yes 5D3 ML 14-bit RAW was something special but that's more nostalgia speaking. It was rather quirky to shoot, cumbersome workflow to edit and of course FHD which is an obsolete format.

what "clay" skin-tones? always thought Canon was well regarded when it came to skin tones.

It's been noted, also Canon rep had this to say in the ProAV stream chat:

Canon claims the Raw update on C70 will unlock the full DR potential from the sensor so maybe expect an extra stop. DGO sensor also does wonders for shadow noise so its a whole different exposure method (to the left) and has much better shadow recovery.

Maybe but I'm not sure I buy the heat excuse. Not with a fan on-board but who knows. Could also be price, IBIS would certainly add a few hundred bucks. In the end no C line camera has ever had IBIS and I guess that isn't changing anytime soon. Maybe we'll see it on a R5C mk2?

True I guess IQ wise there should be now zero differences in between C70 & C300iii ? Pretty crazy considering the camera isn't even 2 years old but yeah any EF cam seems like poor investment, major transition point at Canon..

I disagree the IBIS on R5/R6 is really good. Obviously on a ultra wide angle walking you're going to get wobbles, it's not miraculous or a gimbal but for locked shots and careful movements using normal lens it works great, especially combined with lens IS. I'm pretty sure removing IBIS was a segmenting decision. or cripple hammer if you prefer. In order to protect R5 and C70..

I was so set on the C70 but the R5C is really making me reconsider. FF 8K Raw for cheaper just seems so hard to pass. Really need to see DR & noise comparison between these two cameras. Especially with the C70 CRL update. CRL should bring a substantial IQ increase to the C70, in this R5C codec comparison the difference in sharpness & detail is huge:

@kye I use 240fps A LOT on my FS7. I'd even say I use way more than 4K60 even though its FHD. It does wonders on liquid shots and sport/action. My clients really love it. Its true its not a HFR we see a lot even in todays latest hybrids. I'll admit sometimes whip out the FS7 for this feature alone!

Right, well no IBIS so yeah guess that deal breaks the R5C for you.. maybe go for FX3 or S1H? 😉

Right except no cine cam actually yet still has IBIS.. well except for FX3 but again it's really just a re-housed A7S3. the video AF seems to be the same as any C line camera. meaning no animal AF etc. The bottom line imo is that this camera may not be the best hybrid (then again which one is?) but it's the closest thing to a stills cam + cine line cam fusioned.

I don't think it's that. Of course there is some segmentation but really what Canon have done with the R5C is interesting: the photo side is EOS R stills menu/specs and the video side is EOS C. I honestly think this is the right way to go and a major shift in hybrid cameras up until now. All other brands mostly have common OS menu/specs for both stills/video. Again Sony were the laziest ever imo with their FX3 that is purely a rehoused A7S3.

Same way people have been doing it before IBIS became the norm. ..yet both the 1DC & 1DX3 haven't got IBIS. R3 & R5C seem to me like much better hybrid options. As for Cinema EOS products. They've been very successful from the start as much more affordable and practical options than ARRI/RED. FYI many Academy Awards in documentary category use Canon Cinema gear: https://www.canon-europe.com/pro/news/canon-filmed-oscar-nominees-2020/ I also don't really understand why Canon always get singled-out when Sony also segment their Alpha & FX line in similar if not more crippled way. No Alpha has RAW or video assist tools, not even the FX3.