kye

On 1/12/2018 at 3:25 PM, jase said:

Just finished my very first doc using HLG:

All surf scenes were shot in CineD (4k60p), all non-surf scenes were shot in HLG (150mbit). Used Leeming LUT for the HLG scenes as base for my grading. Suprisingly, the Leeming LUT for CineD did not change the image at all when applying it?

Lessons learned:

- Use a lav for interviews. Even though I mounted the Rode VideoMicro next to him there were way too many background noises. I am no audio expert, so all attempts to filter those noises resulted into non-natural sounding audio

- Now that I am used to non-slowmo shooting, I have to admit that the 60p didnt add as much as I thought it would. If I had to shoot it all over again, I would probably buy some V90 cards and shoot everything in HLG 400mbit.

(also quoted from the previously-linked thread)

Nice short - there's some really nice shots in there

I thought the 60p shots you slowed down were really nice with the jumps and turns etc, and it kind of broke up the pace of the film and provided something in-between the really fast action shots and the motionless interview shots.  I don't know your style, but I'd have tried to use a few more of them and maybe extend them longer.  

You also went at a great time of day, the light on the water gives it dimension and the back-lit spray from the waves looks just great!

I couldn't help notice that the shots with (what must have been) a very long lens seem quite jerky, was this the IBIS getting in the way?  

I'm gearing up to shoot my kids sports games and have got some 135mm-200mm lenses in transit, but the longest lens I've used on the GH5 so far is the 58mm Helios, so I'm not familiar with how the camera works with long telephoto lenses.

30 minutes ago, tweak said:

What's going on there? Looks like some serious BK pollution in that image.

What is BK pollution?  Even Uncle Google couldn't tell me what it means

14 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Why not just buy one of these.

https://www.aputure.com/products/dec-vari-nd-1

If you have to adjust the ND manually then it's no easier than having a variable ND on the front.  It's probably better optically, but it's the fact the camera can expose for me without mucking up the aesthetics that is what I'm interested in.

I want the ND to be controlled by the camera automatically like the FS5.

8 hours ago, redepicguy said:

Just got a GH5 to go with my Alexa and purchased the LUTS. Pretty impressed so far. With some tweaks, they work very well. 

VLOG

GHa 

Final Look:

Welcome!

Nice looking stills.

Have you tried to match the GH5 with your Alexa yet?  If so, how did it go?

11 hours ago, Dan Wake said:

I wish this  camera may create proxy videos...

You mean in addition to RAW?

If you shoot in Prores then you don't need proxies

My 350Gb of footage took 11 hours to render proxies.  Good thing I didn't have to go anywhere and take my laptop!

4 hours ago, UncleBobsPhotography said:

I hope they realize that GH5 users are buying it for video and not for taking pictures. Replace the mechanical shutter with an internal ND!

4 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I think an electronic ND feature that only works for photos would be a cool idea 

Or just implement it for both, and make the camera a bit bigger.  Hell, someone could even make a range of speed-boosters with it included (the optics would probably be required to accommodate the extra thickness) and if they updated the MFT lens mount communications protocols to support it then it could just be a bolt-on accessory without needing external power or wires or whatever.  Then every GH5, G85, G9 user could also have one.  I refuse to pay $700 for the Metabones SB but I'd pay for that.

5 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Insta 360 cameras offer a small view of the future. AUTO everything, a lot of options in post.

There will always be a need for dedicated and specialized - and expensive - professional equipment.

I remembered another possible use for 360 cameras.

360 cameras + 8K (or higher)
360 cameras might make a great second angle for professionals who shoot events or weddings, especially if you put them on an extendable pole and put them up high.  I think they'd make great wide shots that would look like static drone shots but could be gotten in places you can't feasibly use a drone.  Eg, a wide shot of the crowd at a concert (either looking towards the stage, or back from it) or at the back of a wedding ceremony for a wide view of the bride walking down the aisle, etc.  This wouldn't be too hard to use either, just mount the camera on an extendable arm and mount it to your tripod (or a separate one), then whenever you setup your camera, hit record on it, extend the arm, forget about it and get your normal shots, then retract the arm, hit stop, and deal with the rest in post.  You don't even have to watch the footage it gets, just knowing what shots you want from it and scrubbing back and forth to find a good snippet is enough.

A second variation would also be possible:

360 cameras + high MP sensors + crop modes
If they implemented modes where you could crop into the sensor to reduce the resolution but up the frame rate then it would be a flexible camera to get specific shots from it, so it wouldn't be a one-trick-pony and wouldn't be limited to allocating its bitrate to the full 360 angle.  Like the P4K / GH5 / Sony/ RED cameras that can can downscale the whole sensor or can do a 1:1 crop, and can trade-off resolution for frame rates, imagine if you could have a 360 camera where you position the camera, connect with your phone, engage the crop and frame rate you want, adjust framing (I'd imagine crops would be limited to certain areas of the sensor), then hit record.  This would enable the full bitrate to be used for 4K120 at perhaps a 16mm equivalent or 28mm equivalent focal length.  You'd get that epic wide shot of the crowd bouncing, the band screaming, the lighting peaking, and the pyrotechnics flaring, but you'd get it well framed, in slow-motion, with plenty of bitrate.  Or if you framed the wedding from within an autumn tree you could get that moment of the bride laughing, the guests reacting, and the autumn leaves falling in the wind all in slow-motion.  Those are hero shots that would define a style, like how every wedding photographer needs a drone now.

Plus these cameras are silent, unobtrusive, and would be pretty small.  Imagine if the Insta360 One X was three or four sided, and each had 30-50MP sensors, had the crop modes, and could write 90+MB/s to a microSD card.  It would cost more than the consumer 2-camera version and be larger too, but it would still only be the size of a small drone, ie, semi-pocketable.  When those sensors are in smartphones none of that tech will be that special, it will be the combination of them that creates the potential.  

It's also worth noting that the Insta360 Titan can do 11K30, 8K30 in 10-bit and 3D, so the beyond 8K tech isn't a dream either, it's here for pros now.  Hell, even if it had four cameras and four microSD card slots and it just recorded full resolution from every camera to each slot and you had to use a merging program in post, that would be fine too if it gave you the quality required.

8 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Yes but 2/3rds of the shots out of focus isn't good enough! ? The world is an interesting place.

True.  There's a threshold at which people are so pissed off with the results that they make a big noise about you, which would stop people hiring you.  However some markets are big enough that bad feedback doesn't get to every client and slick sales-people still make sales.  

Interesting is definitely the word...

On 12/17/2017 at 5:30 PM, jase said:

I tried this on my own. The following two shots are taken in 24p 10bit HLG 150mbit and 6k 24p 200mbit. After that I applied some grading with some grain, what I noticed is that the 6k image is indeed a bit less sharp (compare the ear for example), however the amount of detail is still the same - at least to my eyes. Obviously you need to check the files at 100%, otherwise you wont see it. At least I dont.

4k HLG

6k HLG

(quoting @jase comment in the other thread - to see the image full size you have to click through to the other thread)

Thanks, that's very helpful

I can see what you mean about there being an equivalent amount of detail but with less sharpening.   In fact it's quite a difference in sharpening, I didn't realise there was that much of it being applied TBH.

On the whole though, it doesn't seem like there is really much downside to using it.  Looking at individual frames really blows me away, such a great looking image

As much as I love the IBIS on my GH5, I will say that recording prores internally would be lovely.  I'm rendering proxies for a three week trip and 350Gb of footage, it's done about a quarter and has been going for a couple of hours now and it says it has about 7 hours left..  that's an hour more than when I started!!

4K Prores Proxy has broadly similar bitrate to 4K 150Mbps or 5K 200Mbps footage and both are 10-bit!  

That person who shot that video in Prores Proxy (or was it LT?) had the right idea

39 minutes ago, tellure said:

Your description of the automatic exposure control using built-in variable ND is exactly how the Auto ND feature on the Sony FS5 works as far as I know (video).  I would definitely love to have that feature in a smaller body.  Fiddling with screw-on variable ND's to get the shutter speed where I want it is always a hassle and just takes time away from the creative aspects.

I agree with you about the face tracking and shot analysis features to help mainstream consumers get into editing.  In the same way that AI neural nets are taught what type of content to look for in image processing you could probably teach them what kind of shot types are attractive to the YouTube audience and then have it use that to rate a user's raw footage, then assemble a rough cut like you suggest.

Yeah, that FS5 video is exactly what you want - the tech doing the tedious things that you can easily describe and leaving you to do the creative things that you can't easily describe.

In terms of AI creating rough-cuts, it works for things like home videos where it just picks the shots with the nicest smiles and tries to include everyone, but other types of videos like commercials, drama, music videos, corporate, etc have much more complex and subtle criteria and often editors themselves don't even know consciously why they prefer one take over another, or why a group of certain shots is better than other groups of similar shots.  I've seen a number of those BTS with big-budget feature editors and they often have as many or more assistants whose job it is to log, sort, tag, and create rough cuts.  Having a computer do those things, as well as laborious things like checking focus down to pixel level on every shot, would be worth money in basically every scenario.

2 hours ago, tweak said:

Resolution and colour, both seem to look nicer to me even on a 1080p display. I really notice the difference trying to match the two side by side.

Fascinating.  I can feel a camera test coming on

3 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I didn't mean an actual list. More like word getting around. I guess the world is big enough where that isn't effective.

Yeah, even in small cities, the world is still a big place unless you stand out in some way or are part of a very small field, like if you're a specialist or charge a spectacular rate.

Sadly, human nature is quite pervasive so these aren't unique issues!

You only have to be good enough to get hired for work - you don't generally have to be that good at actually doing it

17 minutes ago, heart0less said:

Damn you, guys.. 

I just bought an used 5D Mk II because of you.. 

You're welcome!!

???

2 hours ago, mercer said:

All Raw looks pretty good to me but there is just something special about 14bit FF Raw with that little punch from Canon’s color filter array.

I figured there might be some extra love in there for Canon.

Is Canon + ML the only hybrid setup that does 14-bit?  I never focused on what bit-depth the BM cameras operated on, or what external setups could offer.

I remember those 10-bit vs 12-bit vs 14-bit conversations we had where most liked 12-bit over 10, and some even preferred 14 over 12.

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Yup, on occasion I think about buying another camera until I look at my footage.

I completely agree that ML footage looks wonderful, but for me so does all RAW footage.

Do you notice a big difference between your 5D ML footage and other RAW cameras?  or is it just that RAW loveliness?

44 minutes ago, tweak said:

If you shoot with anamorphic lenses the difference between the 4k and 5k modes is noticeable. I shot a whole short almost entirely on 5k anamorphics with HLG and it was a dream to grade.

What was the main difference that you noticed?  Resolution, or something else?

59 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

What industry do you work in? Seems like a person like that would get blacklisted once clients see their subpar results. I am not an industry person so I don't know. I guess it's the downside of an unregulated industry.

I'm a business consultant, so spend my working days in head offices dealing with management types and office politics.

I once spoke to a coworker with a HR background after we ejected someone from the building who was beyond useless, and I suggested that we make a note never to hire that person again  and they said that there was some kind of HR rule and we couldn't make any kind of list like that.  I don't know if that was just for that company, or a wider regulation, but that company wasn't anything special, so similar limitations are likely in other organisations.  The company was around 5000 employees, so the chance that someone else in management somewhere sees that person has experience within the org and re-hires them is considerable.

But it has its upsides too - if someone only wants to work with people who agree with them then good riddance, I'll go somewhere else and actually be productive.

Cool topic and interesting predictions.

Innovation tends to come from the intersection of technologies, less from a single technology reaching a threshold.  Here's a few combinations that might be interesting:

360 cameras + AI with face-tracking + AI video editing
This could create a camera that consumers just take with them to events and it automatically records video, frames shots in post, and edits them together to deliver a finished product or products (photos and video).  This might even be free if FB / Amazon / Instagram think the data gained by spying on you is worth the hardware costs, but if you willing to pay for it then they'll happily take the data and your money.

Electronic variable ND + better ISO performance (or dual ISO, or Triple ISO?)
This combination could create a camera where we control the creative parameters (SS, F-stop) and the camera manually exposes using only non-creative controls (ND, ISO).  This means you can set whatever aperture you want, 180 degree shutter, and then take exposure off your plate and think about more creative aspects of shooting.  The "cinematic vlog" crowd might help with this as there's a ton of them and they care about SS and F-stop but want fast-paced shooting, and will be adding their voice to the pros who also want built-in NDs.

NLE + AI face-tracking and shot analysis
Not something people talk about, but there might be benefits to NLEs being able to analyse your footage.  Immediate benefits would be logging footage by reading slates (if you have them), detecting takes (visually similar shots repeated over and over), tagging of shots with which faces appear in them, etc.  Combined with smart bins this would save a lot of leg-work, especially in doc work where you have huge amounts of footage.
For the less serious users (some people felt that FCPX was really iMovie, so Apple are trying to reach these people) you could also have expression detection, framing detection, and other ways to rate clips.  The existing 'choose the best shots and make a sequence' technology could be incorporated, creating a rough-cut with a single button.  More advanced features would be to watch you through the webcam as you view shots and further refine based upon your reactions.  
This could be huge as people are recording video and photos all the time, and editing your photos and choosing the best ones has been made easy but video editing is still something the average person doesn't even attempt.

7 hours ago, Kisaha said:

"Pro" is someone that make a living out of a certain trade, these guys do - they shouldn't - there is a certain space that make it doable, between cheap weddings, corporates and a few "connections". The show didn't go on this year, but they are still pulling some strings for next year. It is not always about abilities and worth, connections are more important almost always.

Yeah, it's the same with most industries, maybe all of them.  It's who you know not what you know.  

I don't know about the film industry, but in my industry you can do very well by just being very social and talking a big game.  It also helps if you don't know anything, people who are clueless tend to respond positively when clients make non-sensical requests and that makes them 'team players' but the people who actually know why those ideas are ridiculous (and are willing to admit it) are negative influences and are to be eliminated at all costs.

Fun fun fun...

2 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Do you remember "Girl with balloon"?

Now it is "Love is in the bin", and worths even more!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2018/oct/11/woman-who-bought-shredded-banksy-artwork-will-go-through-with-sale

Mr. Brainwash, or whatever is called, is a Banksy creation, the stunt was to make it seem real, so he was pulling some strings for a couple of years before the docu-release, and maybe after. Banksy is THAT good.

In a sense, after Exit was aired, there's no reason that Mr Brainwash wouldn't stay famous, regardless of if he's an artist or not.  Hollywood has shown us that there is plenty of room for people only being famous for being famous, and that once you kick-start that with a PR stunt of some kind (sex tape, art documentary, whatever!) then the world cares about how many times you chew each mouthful of breakfast and everything else..

The shredded Banksy should be worth more not less after it was shredded.  It's physical art and now performance art

2 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Thanks! Most of my stuff is no budget one-two man crew type stuff. Much of the time I feel like I am just running around trying to salvage the situation as best as possible?

Anyone with aspirations about what they're making feels like this.  I continually see great moments happen when I wasn't filming and think about the film I could have created had I got those shots, ah well....   Keep shooting

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

It’s motion. That’s the key. Get the most “cinematic” movie you can think of... enable the frame smoothing... or blur reduction or whatever they call it on the TV  you are using... and... instant video. I don’t care how it was shot, it doesn’t matter what camera or what lens... it could have been shot on film... instant video.

Some cameras pull it off better than others straight out of the box; Most need help by using correct technique. Others are hopeless. The above is an easy experiment to perform. Mystery solved!

Now you mention it, I kind of agree.

I was preparing to refute your statement by saying that stuffing up the motion would ruin it - just like stuffing up anything else would also ruin it, but that's not true.
I'm kind of typing out loud here, but you can take a cinematic film and stuff up the colours, remove the slow-motion (many films just slowed down the 24p footage in post anyway, still looked ok), you can crop the framing, etc and you don't have that instant-video kind of effect.  Deep DOF doesn't ruin it, camera shake would put a dent in it perhaps, bad lighting would put a dent in it (although all kinds of natural light is fine).  

What else did I miss?

1 hour ago, kaylee said:

 

@kye regarding your post above, holy S*** i did NOT know any of that stuff about mr brainwash??? ill have to look into it...

that being said, historically secure art pieces do not involve "street art", which tends to be remembered for about 3 seconds. could banksy be an exception? sure, maybe

Neither did I, fun stuff!

I just watched a doc called Saving Banksy on Netflix and it was about the guy that tried to save a Banksy from San Francisco and wanted to save it from being painted over by cutting it out of the wall, and what happens after that.  It's not as good as Exit but still interesting to watch and leaves you with the same WTF reaction over the system and how things just don't fit together.  

Recommended

7 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Maybe they think it wouldn't be cinematic or something.

OMG - run!  Stop down the aperture!  Shorten the shutter speed!  Disable all slow-motion!  Bang up the ISO!  

Must.  Protect.  Camera.  From.  .  .  .  Vloggers!

12 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

//OFF TOPIC ON//

I know this isn't about equipment but now you've brought this lens into it I have to pipe up

It really is a great lens (especially with the extra reach from the clear zoom) but who the fuck at Sony thinks its a good idea when the camera goes into sleep that it reverts the lens back out to 18mm when you wake the camera up again??!!!

Fair enough it would do this when you switch the camera off completely but, man, I was using it yesterday to do some product shots and I wanted to beat it to death.

//OFF TOPIC OFF//

Odd, there's normally an option for these things.

I have a Panasonic point-and-shoot with some ridiculous zoom (20X or 30X) and wow was it annoying before I found the "resume zoom on wake" option

53 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

do not worry, I usually bite too! Just did actually!

Are you saying I'm a troll?

Genuine question - it's hard to understand how other people see your behaviour.

28 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Funny you mentioned it, I was just reading that we will have a huge Banksy expo in my city.

Sorry for interfering, but this is one of the greatest films of the century!

This is really a mockumentary, the character is created by Banksy himself and mocks the whole artistic world and the "gallery" driven artistic market. He was creating the whole project a few years before release, gossips/articles/art/websites e.t.c

How shallow is the DOF on this film, by the way?!? 

I was reading about it after posting and apparently there is a lot of confusion.  The wikipedia page for Mr Brainwash (link) has some interesting snippets in it.

Quote

However, it also adds that "it is impossible to prove whether his latest incarnation, Mr. Brainwash, is sincere. The film suggests that Guetta's artistic alter ego is largely a creation of Banksy, a notion Guetta doesn't refute." Guetta told the paper: "In the end, I became [Banksy's] biggest work of art."

Which seems to suggest that it's all fake, however then there is this:

Quote

Mr Brainwash made his major auction debut on May 14, 2010 at Phillips. The piece, a massive canvas, was given a pre-auction estimate of $50,000–70,000. It showed a Charlie Chaplincharacter with paint can and roller in hand. The background of the work was adorned with the artist's Madonna and Heart image, set in an urban/street environment.[30]

The London Fall 2010 Phillips Contemporary Art Sale was Brainwash's second appearance in auction, this time with two works, described as spray and metallic paint, acrylic and paper collage on canvas.[31] The smaller of the two measures 106.7 x 106.7 cm (42 x 42 inches) and shows Kate Moss amongst heavy brush strokes and splatters of red, pink, and white paint all amongst a gold background. The larger one, measuring 162.6 x 121.9 cm (64 x 48 inches), shows Albert Einstein in front of a graffiti adorned wall. The works sold for about $67,000 and $120,000, almost three times their estimates.

and this:

Quote

An episode of the Morgan Spurlock-produced documentary series A Day in the Life follows Guetta for a day. He is shown preparing for a large Los Angeles show. In the episode he reveals that all of his work since his 2008 debut has been completed with a team of graphic designers.

and this:

Quote

In 2009, when Madonna was set to release her greatest hits compilation, "Celebration", she asked Mr. Brainwash to design the cover. He designed 15 different covers for the wide release, singles, DVDs and special edition vinyl.[19] Mr. Brainwash also collaborated with Madonna for her Hard Candy Fitness in Toronto. The Hard Candy Fitness opening featured the live onsite creation of an 11 by 30 foot Madonna mural, designed by Mr. Brainwash.

What we have is a real person, who was featured as a real artist in a fake documentary by a real artist, whose status as an artist is challenged and the real person won't say he is an artist. So that seems pretty straight-forward, he's not an artist.  He reveals in a real documentary that all his work since his debut has been completed by a team of graphic designers.

Definitely not an artist then.

Unfortunately, since his debut, apparently he's done the following:

• Designed album covers for Madonna
• Designed art to promote Rock The Vote
• Done work for Michael Jackson
• Might have been part of the official promotion for Red Hot Chilli Peppers
• Directed a video for Coke featuring Avicii
• Did work for Coachella
• "created a one-of-a-kind Mercedes-Benz 2015 GLA" for Mercedes, whatever the hell that means
• Appeared in performances

and has sold art worth something like $250K.  

Does making art, selling art, or appearing as an artist make you an artist?  Who knows, but I just love that even by reading the wikipedia page you're still not sure what the hell is going on, and I think that's the whole point.  The questions aren't if he's an artist, how much Banksy did, if the documentary is real or not.  The questions are: What is art?  What makes something valuable?  Do we judge people by their actions or by what they say (or don't say)?

My take-away impression from the docs was that it was kind of like a prank on the art world that they fell for, but I think that the prank is actually on humanity, because there just aren't answers to these questions.

And how shallow was the DOF on that film?  About right for a documentary - nothing to do with the work I create