kye

11 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

And I bet for low budget fast paced shoots (such as when you need to knock out a half a dozen corporate interviews in just a single afternoon) then having two matching cameras is very handy. 

Am quite tempted to myself buy a 2nd Sony PMW-F3

So basically he lost $5K over a year and a half, which is both a lot and "not too bad", depending on your perspective. 

Having two cameras is handy..  for the price of the RED anyone could have 3, 4, 5, or more P4K rigs, and those combined would probably be comparable in terms of weight and size.

My take-away from Calebs video was that he thought that buying the RED was a mistake because of a number of reasons, most of which the P4K doesn't suffer with.

10 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@kye I guess I should clarify I’m not taking a piss on the Pocket - and in no way, shape or form would I claim the a7 III has nicer color or a better codec than the P4K. I still think both you and I are waiting to see how this whole thing plays out before plunking more money down. 

I understand

I'm not waiting anymore.  I've had a few people recommend I get the EM1 mk2 over the GH5 because of the IBIS, but I'm not sure because the Oly has some other limitations.  Either way, I've got some vintage lenses and adapters on the way, and I'm planning on buying something this week.  I leave for India in about 3 weeks and was going to shoot it with the GF3 but the wife talked me into upgrading before the trip instead of afterwards when I was planning on it, so that the footage from the trip is nicer.

5 minutes ago, TurboRat said:

It's fine that you consider the P4k as a cinema camera since it has a 'Cinema' on it and interestingly not a 'Pocket' camera. Everybody have their own preference and should not influence your own. 

Honestly it's still debatable for the new P4k to be grouped with the Reds or Arris. Will wait for EBU or other technical bodies for their tests. 

That said I think the concerns about the P4k are the result of comparisons with existing cameras like the A7III, Fuji, Pana mirrorless. It's clear that Blackmagic's target market for the P4k are non-Red/C100 using consumers hence the comparison

"Cinema" and "Pocket" are both in the title, and let's be honest, it's reaching for both.  Cinema is a stretch because it doesn't have SDI outs, and a range of other things that a Venice or RED or ARRI would have.  Is it fair to compare the $1300 camera with a $100K camera because it has "cinema" in the title?  No, so we're not doing that.  That kind of a comparison is unreasonable because the cameras are for vastly different users and offer vastly different features at vastly different prices.

And yet because it has the word "Pocket" in the name we're comparing it to genuine pocket cameras.  I say that kind of comparison is also unreasonable, also because the cameras are for vastly different users and offer vastly different features at vastly different prices.

Then we compare it to cameras that neither claim to be pocketable or to be cinema cameras, and don't have the features or form-factor of pocket or cinema cameras, like the A7III or 5D or GH5, but somehow this is a fair comparison for batteries.

And we do so because we don't want to buy a few extra and carry them in a bag with the lenses, filters, and media cards that we are inevitably carrying around, or if we want long battery life we're not willing to buy an external solution?  If it came with 10 spare batteries, a V-Mount with mounting hardware, and cost a few hundred extra then people would moan that they're paying for things they don't need.  If it came with a larger internal battery then people would moan that it was too large.

All this talk makes me wonder if anyone understands the concept of things being "modular".

In terms of everyone having their own preference, I think it's designed perfectly - it can be used in either a small setup or a large one, making this the flexible approach to meet everyones needs.  Making it heavier to hold or requiring a larger gimbal for those willing to swap batteries and wanting a small and light setup is imposing your views on those users.

4 minutes ago, jonpais said:

But why bother with a V-mount when in a couple years, all hybrids on the market will shoot 2 hours or more on a single battery? And FF 8K is the next revolution after HDR for sure. I’m not being argumentative - I’m just stating where I see the industry headed. 

It is where it's heading and I agree.  It's just pretty damn difficult to film something today with next years camera!

Comparing the P4K to cameras in the future should wait until we get those "P4K vs A7SIII vs Panasonic S1 mkII vs GH7" or "P4K in 2021" threads that are inevitable.

Mostly EOSHD talks about cameras in a relatively sane way, but this thread has started to remind me of those smartphone reviewers who give a 1 star rating because the included AI doesn't make their bed for them.

I haven't flown myself, but I've seen a lot of YouTubers go up and it seems like a tough environment.  Apart from the motion of the heli I think I've also noticed that it's really windy up there?  Especially when you get the doors open and are hovering (not going with the wind) and that's the time you want to take shots!  I seem to remember the wind potentially blowing the cameras around a bit.

Maybe someone with experience can confirm?

14 hours ago, wolf33d said:

With the new players (Z7, XT3, upcoming S1...) I think it would be cool to re-give the prize for best 120p in the market. 

@Andrew Reid you have both the XT3 and Z7, which one is better in 120p? Any footage comparison planned? 

All good 120p cameras now do good quality for close up (like a portrait and big bokeh) but you can easily tell them appart when you film a wide busy scene with water and grass for example: this is what is interesting to compare. 

Worth putting in the comparison IMO: A7III / RX100 / Z7 / XT3 / GH5 / 1DX2  and soon S1 and A7SIII

Great thread.

Wouldn't it just be a matter of bitrate though?  120 is difficult in those busy deep DoF shots because the amount of data available for each frame is low and the IQ suffers accordingly because there's so much information in the frame to try and fit into that limited data.

I never understood why manufacturers didn't just scale the bitrate up with the frame rate - the idea of slow motion is to conform to the native frame rate..  

14 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I watched that video last night in fact, and it was pretty good. But I continue to stick to my position above. Just months after the release of the a7 III, suddenly the entire industry is into FF mirrorless. I predict the next step will be RAW. And both you and I prefer long battery life (one of the issues with the Red), IBIS and AF - or am I wrong?

I want IBIS and was also wanting AF until I recently changed approach.  If I didn't need either then I would be all over this camera like a rash.  I would just buy a few more batteries.

If anyone doesn't like changing batteries then get a V-Mount and power it externally, the port is there.

If some camera company turns around tomorrow and releases an 8K RAW camera that has 27 years of battery life then it doesn't change how good this camera is, or the fact that there are plenty of battery options, both for the people who want a small setup or those who want to rig it up and have a large one that will run all day.

and if anyone doesn't like that it has the word "Pocket" in the name and it doesn't fit in your pockets then I really don't know what to say....

I think this thread needs a reality check, and luckily Caleb Wojcik just posted one.

Some of the points he made were:

• He loves the image but the camera is a pain to use and so often stays at home in favour of his 2 x C100 mk2
• It was expensive, and the battery life, proprietary accessories like touchscreen, storage, media readers, handle, chargers, and everything else cost about $25K US about two years ago
• In fact it was so expensive that he left it locked up because of fear of using it (despite having insurance)
• It's hugely heavy and impractical to use, he had to buy four batteries because two wasn't enough, and it basically requires a team to build and operate it

In summary - two years ago one of the most affordable cinema cameras cost $20K plus, was such a PITA to use that he didn't take it places, and he used C100s instead.

Now in 2018, they release a 4K60 RAW cinema camera that costs less than 10% of the above RED, is smaller than the C100s but a significant margin, gets similar battery life, is easily hand-holdable, works with all kinds of third-party accessories, and comes with a free copy of an industry leading NLE.

Anyone who bitches about the battery life, size, cost or anything like that clearly don't have the faintest idea what a real cinema camera is like.

Get a grip - you're just embarrassing yourselves.

22 hours ago, IronFilm said:

The GF1 is built closer in design to the GX series. 
While after the GF1 the GF series when more consumer/entry/compact design with their series. 

I don't know about the ergonomics of them (the GF3 is nice though) but the difference I remember was that there was one control configuration that the GF1 had that the later models didn't have, and the reviews I read of the GF1 were saying that was the killer feature.  IIRC it was something you don't get unless you got for much larger and more expensive bodies (how the pro bodies have more control wheels) but then the larger bodies aren't as great for travel.

Anyway, good times - if only they had built in 8K RAW video and we'd still be using them today!!

10 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

If that's your goal, I, personally, would take one of the Olympus cameras.  

Not sure what your'e ultimately going after in your long term goals, but as an example, when I finished shooting my latest doc this summer, I did a debrief session with my wife and we figured that we probably should have shot the film on EM5II's instead of GH5's. 

Yes, the IQ is wildly better with the LUMIX flagship model, but the EM5II is a much cheaper camera.  That would have opened up a few grand for the other MORE IMPORTANT parts of the budget - and that's so, so much more pragmatic than an edge in IQ.  Also, the EM5II is just more adept in crazy handheld situations....which 80% of the doc ended up being.

The Oly cams have quirks you have to adapt to, but nothing that's sways me enough to avoid them.  For instance, you have to set white balance.  Auto-WB drifts too much.  The image on the EM5II will alias when shooting super sharp modern glass. (newer 4K OLY models are clean) The on-board pre-amps aren't great, but when paired with my Sennheiser ew100 kit, it works well enough. 

So, I look at your photograph above and think, yeah, I could easily do a decent dolly/so-mo cheat in that situation with my old EM5II.  The GH5?  Eh, not so much.

That's my anecdote anyway.  Balance your choice with all you do.  So many cams these days are more than capable.

Thanks

I watched a few reviews of the Oly's and those quirks seemed a pretty big price to pay for me.  I do pretty well with the XC10 so I suspect that I have relatively steady hands.

I think that's the state of the camera market at the moment, there are cameras with spectacular specs but also significant weaknesses, and real-life always requires a balance of performance across most of the features.  The pic I posted is an extreme example but it happens enough for it to be what I need to plan for rather than the exception.

8 hours ago, frontfocus said:

https://kolarivision.com/nikon-z7-dissasembly-teardown/

after disassembling a Z7 they claim, that the IBIS moves even less than in a Sony. But the Video looks nice, much more like Panasonic or Fuji than Sony. Olympus is still a tiny bit better, at least for photography. 

3 hours ago, jonpais said:

Here are their exact words:

We were surprised to find that the Nikon Z7’s shaker itself does not move very much compared to Sony and others. Despite this, Nikon still claims a CIPA image stabilization rating of 5-stops, where the A7R III claims 5.5.

With IBIS there are three things that I see to consider:

• How far the sensor can move
• How much motion is left when it is stabilising within its working range (stops, EV)
• What behaviour happens when it gets close to the edges

My personal opinion is that how far it can move is more important than how many stops of motion are left.  The difference between 5 and 5.5 stops is nothing if one of those sensors can stabilise your hand shake and the other one can't travel far enough and has to let some motion bleed through.  

If we were to get those two cameras and shake the shit out of them while both were in their working stabilisation range then you wouldn't be able to tell much difference between 5 and 5.5 stops, but if one is within its range and the other isn't then the comparison would be between 5 and 1 stops, or 5 and zero stops, which will be night and day.

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I really really should do this myself, as it is a smart idea, but I'm lazy.... however it would also be so simple to do.

I'd encourage you to also do it..  it's a bit of work to set it up, but once it's setup it has very very little maintenance.  I auto-pay the hosting invoices and every couple of years I have to renew the domain name, but unless there's a problem that's basically it.

If you have tech questions then PM me, happy to help

Interesting video interview of Yosuke Yamane at Photokina on the origin of the S1..

Of note was the part where he says "In developing full frame cameras, we have decided to target professionals in both photography and videography categories".

I'm not sure how good the translation on this is, but it's unlikely that it's an error saying that it's targeting professional videographers.  He was talking about the ergonomics at the time, but I think it extrapolates.  He also spoke about how they've lead the market previously and the culture around their camera development is of new challenges and bringing things to customers that exceeds other companies offerings.  

Of course, who knows what that really means - 4K RAW, 4K60, 6K, 8K, or if it's just a FF GH5(s), but it's probably a good sign from our point of view about the video specs.

36 minutes ago, jonpais said:

?.  My bank must have just figured I was buying one Leica L mount lens every other day for three weeks.

With all the new cameras I guess it's the season for it!

On a more serious note, good to hear you were fortunate, and +1 to the advice you gave.

I have my own domain name and as such can give every site I sign up for a unique email address.  Therefore, when I get put on a SPAM email list I can look at which email address the email is to, and see which site has been hacked.  It happens quite frequently and the sites basically never tell you that they've been hacked, so it's going on all the time in the background.

The internet used to be like the Wild West, and still is, but now it's like a B-movie version set in the future with AI and hacking and the pirate bay and the Silk Road ???. Luckily there are little islands of refuge like EOSHD

A couple of months ago I shot this little test video to trial if I could give up IS and use the Canon 700D and 18-35 f1.8 as my main setup.  I was also inspired by this thread, thus the choice of music.

Thoughts and comments are welcome, but remember it was shot and edited in a day or two, so if you want to be critical then be sure to post your own work to show me how it's meant to be done ???

For me it is a simple equation..  if you want IBIS for use with MF / vintage / cine primes then this is the camera.

I think that "50 reasons" video is quite compelling..  partly because it wasn't 7 reasons, and because the reasons were "it has feature X and P4K doesn't", not the usual "feature X is 7% better" that these videos are normally full of.

The fact that "It's also a stills camera" was only one of the reasons was quite telling I think!!

Sorry to hear you're getting hassled..  maybe Andrew could send them a virtual hand-grenade for being out-of-order!

PM sent

Awesome to hear @kaylee

When does it premier on EOSHD?? ???

7 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah I don't have a really fast data plan, but on Vimeo I Have to set it to auto or I am waiting for it to load all the time. Now You Tube I rarely have any trouble, but yeah their quality is not as good either. But I have no clue how either site can handle all that Bandwidth.

The sad thing for me is that I have an excellent internet connection, but Vimeo still plays badly.

I get around it by using a video downloader to download Vimeo videos, watch them and then delete them.  So I can't watch a Vimeo video in 1080 (let alone 4K) but the download software can download the video in 4K at faster than real-time (eg, I can download a 4 minute video in under 4 minutes) so it's actually the player and not their servers that's the issue in my case.  Either way, YT works fine and Vimeo doesn't.

I love these videos!

If only they weren't so misleading...  I'd like the "Filmed on ONLY the Pixel 3" version!

21 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

That's what you'd get from these cams.  Actually, I think the stabilization system on any brand will get you there.  My wife has an X-Pro2 with some cool optical stabilization, but I'm partial to IBIS though because I like to use old primes.

I am also interested in old primes, so OIS is out, and I'm sure that most cameras IBIS would do a good job but I sometimes shoot at longer focal lengths or when I'm doing difficult movements and that's where I could use the extra help and want the best IBIS I can get.  

This is me a few weeks ago in Pomeii doing a fake slider shot:

This kind of stuff is why great IBIS can't always be replaced with mediocre IBIS or a gimbal or tripod / monopod / steadicam / shoulder-rig / easy-rig.

On 10/9/2018 at 7:07 AM, PannySVHS said:

My favorite built and designed camera for photography is the GF1. I think thats how one should built a small camera body. Even with its non existent handgrip it feels awesome in hand.

I read a few in-depth reviews of the GF1 where people described it as the perfect travel camera (for stills) and that inspired me to buy my GF3 which I found to be excellent in basically every way.  IIRC the GF1 had  some kind of unique control configuration allowing you to adjust the important parameters, but they changed it on the updated models for some reason.  I ended up with the GF3 in full-auto and most of the time it knew what I wanted and left me to think about being creative instead of being a camera technician.  That's the way it should be, and many of my best shots came from it.

My GF3 even had a metal body, which was appreciated when I dropped it once onto concrete and it hit the corner just next to the LCD - because it was metal it just dented a bit and everything is fine, if it was plastic I fear the LCD would have been collateral damage!

1 minute ago, MattH said:

It's actually not surprising that the bitrate is higher as its 4 times the resolution.   But you would think that in viewing 4k on a 1080 monitor you would not make use of that extra information, that is if the 1080 bitrate was sufficient to deliver true 1080p quality.   So since there is a big difference the conclusion is that the 1080 bitrate is not sufficient.   And presumably the 4k bitrate is not sufficient to deliver true 4k quality on a large 4k monitor.       Thanks for the link.

No worries.

I agree that neither bitrate is sufficient for our purposes, although they seem to be sufficient for YT bottom line, which is what they were optimised for!

It's a pity that Vimeo doesn't provide a good alternative because their quality is much better, but Andrew recently did a poll and more than half have video pausing problems, and a third can't ever watch a video without them (me included).

4 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

It's okay.  Depending on what you're shooting, a shooter often has to skip it though.  The algorithm will fail when high motion is present.  Panning or tilting is not a good idea.

That said, the GH5 under the standard IBIS will take the edge off of handheld shooting for sure.  It's actually kinda nice that it "floats" a bit.  Gives the frame some smoothness, but maintaining a nice kinetic energy.  

But the IBIS on my EM5II is still the best I've ever used.  With that and a little practice, one could easily emulate dolly shots handheld.

IBIS is not a gimbal though.  If you think you can get it to work that way, prepare to be disappointed.

Good info, thanks

I've shot hand-held forever, and even before I was into video I shot a lot of long exposure stills hand-held with tiny cameras, so my jedi gimbal hands aren't too bad.  What I want is something to take the edge off.  I shoot hand-held because I like the freedom of movement and speed of shooting, but in terms of movement I want somewhere between the shaky-and-distracting-as-crap look of no IS and the too-smooth-slightly-drugged-floaty look of gimbal footage.  I would also like to be able to do a passable hand-held pan or tilt if I'm in a pinch.  

The level of movement from a shoulder-rig is probably about right, but I find myself frequently in situations where there isn't time or space for any kind of camera support so IBIS is where it's at for me.

On 10/9/2018 at 4:47 AM, MattH said:

Although im pretty sure youtube has reduced the quality of their HD stream because even on a 1080 monitor when I sellect 4k the quality goes up considerably.  So for maximum quality on youtube it may be best to upload at 4k even for people with HD monitors.  Though I supose you could easily upscale your finished HD video before uploading it.

On 10/9/2018 at 5:03 AM, webrunner5 said:

Yeah I am not sure how that really works. It is complicated.

I did some testing myself to work it out, and long story short is that if you watch a video in 4K (or 1080p60 I am told) then the bitrate of the stream from YT is considerably higher.

Here's the thread if you're curious:

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/26746-getting-good-video-quality-on-youtube/

If no IBIS then it's a GH5S competitor.  Lots of pros use the A7SII for video work on gimbals, so it makes sense to have a version that goes after RED and the like.

4K 120 isn't so far fetched..  The data-rate for it is 4 times that of 4K30, and 8K30 is also 4 times that of 4K30.  I don't know where the most difficult part of a data pipeline is, but they're probably very similar engineering challenges.

If they're looking to differentiate it from the A7SII then those features will definitely do it, and it will mean that it's not completely replacing the previous model.

@Sage I've just settled on a GH5 and am interested in the GHa products.

Can you give a brief outline of how they work?  I assume that there are some custom settings or a LUT that you configure the camera with and some other LUTs that you apply in post?

Also, does it work with the HLG profile (which will probably be my preferred profile)?

I'm grading in Resolve and have had a lot of success grading C-Log by having a WB/exposure node then the conversion node and then the grade, which I understand is how you recommend using GHa?

Thanks

Wife talked my into the GH5.  I read reviews that the Olympus had better IBIS but was sub-par on everything else, so GH5 it is.

10 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Hard to go wrong with GH5 IBIS. No you can't really casually walk with it or run. But for some slower controlled movements and doing tripod like shots without a tripod, its pretty darn good. 

I have the XC10 and the IS in it is good but not great and I can get the odd walking follow shot that works out because I've been working on my ninja walking techniques for a while now.

Mostly though it's me doing fake tripod shots, pans, or sideways/forward slider shots without moving my feet, so I'm all good with those and they're my bread and butter moves, so it should be great for that