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On 9/21/2018 at 10:36 AM, Adam Kuźniar said:

Watching the Casey's video, the blocking and compression in forest scenes are horrendous! Nothing close to what was shown in the ad. Is that yet another episode of "no one can match their gopro videos to the sponsored ones" ?

When I bought my gopro hero 3 I read a lot of articles about how to make it look good, because my attempts didn't, and found a great article written by the person who filmed the snorkelling girls in the promo video. Unfortunately I now can't find it, so apologies for not linking it.

The basic outline was that for the 3-6 shots in the promo they had a half a dozen person team and it took a week of 12-18 hour days to shoot.

The first day they shot a lot and it was all unusable but they were learning the camera, the second and third days were the same and once they got it dialled in with all the right settings and rigging and NDs and filters and grading techniques then the last couple of days were about getting the shots.

He confirmed that you really can get those results, but only if you are a very experienced operator and you have all the resources and time in the world.

I've read other people also say the same thing of manually working out what ND strength gives what shutter speed etc etc. It's like playing chess and you have to get to checkmate to get the shot!

I know the current ones give more manual controls, but you still need to try every video mode and lighting condition to see how they all turn out, as from a professional perspective apparently some modes are lovely and others are awful.

@jonpais Matti made an interesting comment in the first A7iii video he made (in Maui I think) about using some strange focus mode, centre-weighted perhaps.

I suspect that he thinks like a long-term Canon user and is trying to use the Sony like a 2012 Canon and has therefore crippled it very significantly, instead of turning on all the 2018 goodness and letting it do its thing.

I personally find this type of mentality common on this forum, with the reluctance (or open hostility) for any automatic features of any kind.

49 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

I'm guessing then there are no implications for video?  (of pixel-shift)

Unlikely as it's combining multiple frames together, so if the subject is moving then it'll be like a worse version of when the de-interlacing isn't done right!

Of course, it kind of depends on how fast it can capture the images. Apple combine multiple exposures in the iPhone cameras to get better low light, so in theory you could build something that attempted it, but we're probably a few tech cycles away of it being good enough to release to the public, and by then we'll have 8K and not need pixel shift to get the resolution, we'll just have more pixels

You know that moment when you look at a recipe and see that all the ingredients look tasty and like they'd go together beautifully.....  Well

19 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I'm surprised that Panasonic haven't pushed for a change though if on the basis of Alan's testing they are being excluded from what would be a bit of a coup for them to have full EBU approval for the GH5s?

I read a number of EBU reports for various cameras as well as the EBU specification documents when I bought my XC10 and I'm not at all surprised that the GH5s didn't get UHD Tier 1 or 2.  

Those standards are very high and there are actually very few cameras that meet them. I'd encourage anyone to pick a few test reports of very high end cameras and read those to get a sense of how well other very respected cameras do. Often they don't test as well as you'd expect. I haven't read all of them, but most (all?) cameras with only a 4K sensor fail to meet UHD Tier 1, and even those with 4.6K or 6K struggle.

I was really disappointed with the test results of my XC10 until I read other tests and now I understand that its test results are remarkable.

Also remember that the standard doesn't test everything. The XC10 exhibits temporal noise reduction resulting in ghosting at higher ISOs, and not only did the EBU tests not discover that but they also have no mechanism to test it either.

I hope this helps

11 hours ago, jonpais said:

Color reproduction ranking. 

This should ruffle some feathers. ?

Thanks Jon, that's very interesting and also quite useful.  I had a quick scan and noticed that the Canons I looked at had similar 'errors' so the test seems reliable, and this means that for colour grading I think this holds some useful information for getting 'those canon colours' or colours from Nikon and others. Everyone knows they change the colours to look flattering or give a nice subjective look but the actual details are never discussed, which means we can't learn from them.

I'll devote further study to this for sure!

@Martin MatÄ›j the 18-35 is a lovely lens and is very popular, there are quite a few videos on YouTube shot with it so if you do some searching you should find some examples of what it looks like and if it suits your tastes. 

You may even be able to find some videos shot with the speed booster and camera you are talking about, which would confirm that it works and how it looks.

I really appreciate mine.

The upgrades seem pretty good and worthwhile to me. HDR video will make a big difference to people who shoot outdoors and feel that the footage looks too 'videoish', and adding the depth sensor to enable portrait mode and fake bokeh to the selfie camera will make a huge difference to the large percentage of people who use that camera almost exclusively.

Apple may be a greedy faceless corporate giant who only cares about profit, but their unethical surveillance of their own users sure means they know what people want from their products! 

I think art is always about chasing perfection, and inspiration disappears when "good enough" becomes a part of your mindset.  Artists are therefore always dissatisfied to some extent because of this.

I've heard many people talk about the level of artistry when the tools become so familiar to the artist that they are more like an extension of the artists body than separate to them, and this is a valid perspective.

The tools shouldn't matter, but if you wanted to make electronic music but found yourself in the 1700's and only had an orchestra, no amount of violin practice would take your mind off the tools and how they just don't do what you want.

The tools I want are only a few years away.  When they arrive no-one will be arguing that no-one should buy them because the cameras of 2018 could do everything for everyone

3 hours ago, anonim said:

Кееp vision, make it live and learn not to be frustrated.

I'm "making it live" now, but it's the difference between the vision and the reality that is the source of the frustration!

43 minutes ago, anonim said:

For me truly personal frustration would be if I feel myself so frustratedly dependent of yet (IX 2018.) non existing device and trying to find reasons to justify that dependency - even presuming  that others who are not frustrated must not be in demanding position equal to mine - instead of finding a different way to resolve or recompose given task.

But, we all are different philosophers 

If the equipment is not up to the standard of our vision then should we lower our vision to meet the equipment, or should we keep the vision and be frustrated until the equipment catches up?

@wolf33d I understand your frustration.

I also shoot in situations that are more demanding than most people here and I have also been told repeatedly what features I do and do not need to have.  The problem lies in other people assuming that we make films like they do, and they cannot understand that we operate in different situations.  Its like someone recommending a GH5 and a gimbal to someone who shoots skydiving videos and wants higher bitrates and better stabilisation than their GoPro!

I think the problem we both have is that we want a combination of features that come from different manufacturers, and one brand can't supply it all.  Our time will come, but it's probably not for a few more generations yet, which is kind of the purpose of this thread.  Having a camera that does 12 of the 15 things you need and spending $5K on a brand new setup that only gets you to 13/15 may not be the best investment.

I'm also with you about the camera industry not moving as quickly as it could.  I think that the camera industry is moving about the same pace as many other industries (or faster even) but because of smartphones and computers we're now a bit spoiled and have might higher expectations than otherwise.  Still, it's frustrating that the ~$30 camera module in a sub$1000 iPhone has 4K60 and brand-new cameras don't.

We are the film-makers that don't fit the mould, and the industry hasn't worked out what to do with us yet.

@fuzzynormal @Dan Sherman I'm not sure what kind of film-making you guys do (apologies if you've mentioned it and I can't recall) but it seems like there's a side of film-making you may not experience which is behind the drive for better specifications.

It goes kind of like this..  You work out what you're going to shoot, choose your gear and go out and shoot it.  For @wolf33d and I it's shooting in difficult conditions.  You come back from the shoot and review the footage, and the shots fall into three categories:

1. Shots that aren't usable: they failed due to poor content, poor technique, or technical issues
2. Shots that are usable but the quality is disappointing
3. Shots that tick all the boxes

For me at least, up to 80% of my shots are in the first category, and almost none in the third.  We all know that editing (and film-making in general) is an exercise in frustration, so we make the best edit we can and try to improve for next time.  If we do well then no-one will ever see the struggle and failed shots.  The lessons are very often about camera technique, movement, composition, anticipating the action, and all kind of excellent artistic aspects that the operator is responsible for.  I work at these almost constantly.

But a lot of the disappointment is about technical matters.  Beautiful shots that aren't in focus are traumatic to watch.  Manual focus isn't practical when you're holding the camera above your head to get the angle - you can't even see the screen well enough to get a good composition let alone reach the lens!  The current wisdom is to get a follow-focus and a bigger screen, but now your rig is too heavy to hand-hold.  Good AF and 8K would be practical and useful artistic tools in this example because you could get it in focus and crop / stabilise in post.  AF is the easy example, but the same could be said for exposure and DR/Log, stabilisation, or other things.

The drive for better specifications is often the drive to improve your films.  I know that many people reach for the tech because they're lazy, but some people reach for the tech because they're already doing everything else they can and sometimes technique isn't enough.

Are you in the market for a new camera and confused or overwhelmed by the choices available and can't decide which features you need and which you can live without?

Or, are you looking for a camera that gives 4k60 10-bit with IBIS, flippy screen, and internal NDs that fits into your budget and into your pocket?

Are you thinking about 8K?

If this is you then look no further!

The best new camera purchase in 2018 is... Don't!

With Don't you get to keep your existing camera, but that's not all, it comes with features no other new camera can offer!

It is completely free!

It has already shipped!

It comes with no learning curve, no menus from another planet, and no colour science that looks like it's from another planet! 

But wait! There's more!

It even comes with more than three lenses!

....

*ahem*

But seriously folks...

If you aren't sure which one to buy then I'd say to wait until you understand what your requirements are (especially which features you can live without) and have seen the reviews of the cameras on offer so that you don't get any nasty surprises.

We're all familiar with the manufacturers vague and deliberately misleading claims, like when Canon said the M50 had 4K and DPAF which is technically correct but they didn't mention they're not both available at the same time. This is just an example and all the manufacturers do this.

This is the reason for full and impartial reviews.

Personally, I'm waiting, and if nothing absolutely hits the bullseye for me then I'll wait a generation or two until something does.

<END OF PSA> ???

5 hours ago, jack86 said:

reading the manual I think they have done a great job .. a lot of tools available with quick access

For a moment there I thought you were saying nice things about the manual! Of course that's not unlikely as the manual for Resolve is absolutely fantastic  

5 hours ago, jack86 said:

so it's window only with high frame rates ..

I guess if you want 1080 no-crop then you shoot 4k with the lowest bit rate codec and downscale in post. It would have the same end result but would take up a bit more drive space.

Or get an external recorder with the money saved on media?

Assuming this is the only list of criteria, the Pocket2 should easily meet it, along with my XC10 and any other 4k log camera.

The tricky standard is the AES/EBU broadcast standard, which is WAY more stringent, including lens mounts, ISO performance and all kinds of good stuff.

There's a check box on YT to specify if the video contains sponsored content or not, IIRC.  Along with a bunch of others like if children appear and if everyone has been paid appropriately I think.

No idea if a review sample meets their requirements or not.

I've just installed Resolve 15 and am looking at Fusion for the first time.  I'm hoping to get under the hood and get some next-level control for editing, especially in things like stabilisation.

There's a whole bunch of cool stuff that Resolve did in 2D that we can now do in 3D

My first impression was that the manual has gone from around 1000 pages to over 2600 pages! Holy wow.... 

Is anyone else diving into Fusion?

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Store the gorillapod separately in the bag from the camera. 

If questioned, say the gorillapod is a sex toy.

LOL..

Although the time I had an issue was that we were going into one entrance of a historic site and out another with a tour group, so when they offered to put it in a locker for me to collect it on my way out it didn't help.  Of course, saying it's a sex toy probably also wouldn't have helped because that historic site was......  the Vatican!

Honestly though, I'm currently on holiday and am just using the XC10 / Rode VMP+ combo and it's working great.

Here's a lightly graded XC10 shot I took the other day....    Greetings from Italy!

I hesitated to reply to this thread because what I do isn't really Run and Gun but I figure some others may benefit.

I shoot family videos, travel videos, my kids sports games, and the odd party video.  I video what is happening as it happens, rather than making things happen for the camera, so my setups have to be able to get the shot very quickly with basically no warning.  I also film completely without permission anywhere so they need to blend in and not attract attention.

I currently have 4 setups, none of which I'm that happy with TBH!!  However, I've had some successes which are worth sharing.

My first setup is my XC10, Rode VideoMic Pro Plus, Tiffen 4-stop ND, and Gorillapod 5K (the largest one).  
I sometimes use the gorillapod but I don't take it everywhere as it's heavy and for some reason the tourist attractions that don't let tripods in also have a problem with this.  I can hand-hold and get steady shots with the IS up to about 100-150mm but getting stable shots at 240mm (the limit of the fixed zoom) or getting smooth pans requires the gorillapod.  The XC10 is a cinema camera and so has a limited range of ISO and shutter speed so I use the 4-stop ND in combination with the built-in 3-stop ND to be able to shoot in full-sun, and the combination allows me to have the sun in frame and still not blow out much of the sky.  The Rode VMP+ is great, it charges over USB, has a battery life that lasts for days and the mode where one channel has heaps less gain as a safety track has saved me more than once.
The XC10 is a wonderful camera to use, but I'm probably going to replace it as I want a shallower DoF to get a bit more depth in my shots, the AF is slow and MF ring is awful, and the high ISO performance isn't anything to write home about.

My second setup is my Canon 700D (running ML), Rode VideoMicro, also with the Gorillapod.
I only use this setup for my kids sports because the crop mode in ML makes the long kit zoom into a ~260mm-1200mm equivalent lens.  Unfortunately I've found ML RAW, and even ML 3X quality mode to be unreliable, even though the card hack is well developed for this camera and I have a semi-fast card.  I own a 50mm 1.8 and the Sigma 18-35 1.8 both of which are lovely lenses, and even if ML RAW worked reliably neither of them have IS and I work handheld but don't like the traditional hand-held look with the sharp camera shake.  It's unfortunate because ML RAW gives wonderful looking footage the combination of 18-35 and crop mode make this setup a complete walk-around setup.  

My third setup is my iPhone 8, VideoMic Me, and DJI Osmo Mobile 2.  I had the Rode VideoMic Me for previous setups which worked well and I think I'll have to look at the VideoMic Me-L which has the lightening connector, although I'm not sure if it will fit the case I have on the phone.
This setup is great, it's unassuming, does 4K60, 1080p240, both of which look great with enough light, has loads of battery life, charges over USB, has IS, phase-detect face-recognition AF, a large bright screen, and doesn't crash or have other fiddly aspects.
This is my A-cam (A for Always-with-me) and when I take a real camera (ha ha) it's my second camera.  iPhones are hugely underrated in terms of how useful they are.  When my kid got his award for playing his 50th game my wife and I both filmed on our phones giving me two angles to cut up in the edit, and at my wife's 40th my daughter filmed a lot of cool footage with her phone that also made it to the edit.
The Osmo Mobile is very new and I got it to add a gimbal into my arsenal, thinking that I'd only want gimbal shots that are wide-angle with deep DoF, so the phone would be fine.  This is for things like slow pans or tilts at scenic lookouts, the "house tour" style videos, getting time lapses from moving vehicles (useful to show a change of location), time lapses that pan/tilt, or "wow this stuff is all so beautiful".  The reality is that it's cumbersome to carry around and flops about when turned off, isn't quick to setup despite being already balanced, and loses the horizon quite a bit.  It's also a bit much considering this is mostly for my second setup.

My fourth setup is my GoPro Hero 3, either paired with waterproof housing and "bobber" mount (a handle that floats) or an open cage potentially with the Rode VideoMicro and a handle.  This is my underwater camera, and my main party camera, which makes sense because all the design challenges of filming action also apply to filming parties.

I really tried to like the 700D + ML setup because if I did then I would have replaced it with the Pocket4K which would have been better in almost every way, but I just don't think I can do that shake for every video.  I have my eye on the A7III to replace the XC10 and 700D because I can get the shallower DoF I want without compromising much else, but I'll wait until the dust settles with all the recent camera announcements and rumours.  The XC10 is a very hard act to follow in terms of ease of use and ergonomics, and if I have any doubts about upgrading I'll just keep it and wait for another year or two.  
I'd also consider getting a gimbal for my main camera instead of for the phone.

The iPhone needs an external mic to get directional sound, so it's a good setup.  The GoPro doesn't shoot 4K and doesn't have OIS, and ideally an action camera would have both but if I had to choose I'd go with IS first because you can't stabilise the blur on an individual frame in post.  4K is useful in that you can stabilise and crop in post, but I've got my eye on the Sony X3000 which seems like it will fit the bill nicely, despite being a bit older now and still a premium price.  I'll wait and see what this xmas season brings.

I hope this helps someone

What kind of cinema camera lineup does Panasonic have?  I'm wondering how protective they might be of those sales.  

It seems the new trend in mirrorless is to have two bodies - a lower priced one and a higher priced more full featured model.  They could do something like 4k60 and 1080p240 on the lower GH6 and 4k60 RAW on the higher priced one perhaps.  Assuming they can get their focussing system covered to phase-detect.

4 hours ago, buggz said:

Yawn...  wake me when all of this has been hashed out...

Too much to keep up with.

BMPC4K, Nikon FFmirrorless, Canon FF mirorrless, I guess Olympus is next, then Panny, Fuji...

I feel the same way.  I'm in the market for a new camera, but only plan to buy around xmas or afterwards.

I'll be waiting until we have comparison videos based on real footage and full reviews and then we'll know what hidden warts each of them have and who each is really aimed at.

7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Lens chart all on one page.

 

If anyone is comparing lenses, be aware that one of the advantages of having a fast lens is that you can stop down and get less distortion.  For example, if you get a 50mm F1.4 and use it at 1.8 then it is likely to be optically superior to the 50mm 1.8 at 1.8.

This is why people would buy a 1.2 lens in comparison to an 1.4 lens - it's not because they want to shoot a lot at 1.2, it's the performance at 1.4 or 1.8.

1 minute ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't think the difference is going to be hardly even noticeable  other than side to side. Sure Heavy VFX may suffer a bit but..

And for $1299 there do have to be some limitations, right?

6 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

Its an interesting video and the short he shot looks very good. His enthusiasm for the camera seems both genuine and infectious.

But what really struck me through the video was how it seems like a DSLR shooter who has just had a mirrorless epiphany. Lightweight on a small gimbal, longer drone flights, ibis is like a gimbal built into the camera, accurate focusing. I particularly liked his comment at the 38th minute....

'This was the big breakthrough for me..... all of a sudden the ability to shoot video while looking through the electronic viewfinder - game changing - completely game changing for a guy like me.,...'

That won't have been an accident!!

9 hours ago, wyrlyn said:

I expected this unfortunately ?

 

The answer doesn't specify if we'll be able to do uncompressed at 60 fps.  If we can't, it might be write speed to the card that's the limitation.  

4:1 should still be pretty good though?

Even if they are late, so what?  Assuming you learned from history and didn't schedule any projects around it you should be ok to wait.  and then once it's out, it's not going to be like the cameras from PaSoCaNikon where they become obsolete in a year or two.  4K60 RAW isn't going to be upstaged at any point in the near future - the Pocket 1 still looks gorgeous!