kye

13 hours ago, leslie said:

i agree, my understanding is the m42's are ff as well so the image circle should be ok but i hear that the bmp4k has a slightly larger sensor than previous but it's still same mount. so i'm thinking with crossed fingers that it will be ok. this video side of things is new to me and i lashed out on the bmp4k while its brand new and somewhat unproven. be bold or go home i say ? . i would be leaning towards a speed booster later down the track. i'm salivating at the thought of an extra stop of light and a little less crop . main issue at the moment is the waiting game. hopefully before or around xmas time i am informed  then can play with the lenses i have got. hopefully the lenses are fine. some suggest that they may not hold up to 4k. its all up in the air at the moment

Lenses and crop factors and speed boosters can be complicated..  if you have questions then just ask

What lenses do you have?

In terms of them "holding up to 4K" I think that's probably not a problem, here's why.  Firstly, 4K video is 8MP, which for a photography lens (which these will all be) isn't that high a resolution.  Secondly, lots of people think that 4K is about getting super sharp images, but not everyone actually likes those super sharp images, and frequently people find that sharp images look "digital" and softer images look more "cinematic".  Film has been pretty soft for the majority of cinematic history, and even more recently when film was of higher quality it doesn't look sharp, so soft can be a nice aesthetic.  

I think the BMPCC4K will prove to be an excellent camera, and already the images look pleasant and most importantly, it doesn't seem to have the digital over-sharpened look of cheaper digital video, so I think it will look nice with whatever lenses you put on it.

My personal view is that you shouldn't put too much emphasis on resolution, but think of it in terms of image quality.  For example, the 1080 from Canon DSLRs is no match for the 1080 in the C100 despite being of similar resolution and bit-rate (actually the DSLRs have a slightly higher bit-rate).  Most 4K cameras don't match the image quality of the original BMPCC despite it "only" shooting 1080.  In this sense, the BMPCC4K can be viewed as having high image quality and then just think that it will do a good job of capturing whatever the lens gives it.  If a lens is a little soft then you will still benefit from capturing it with a camera that has high image quality, right?  Then, once you've chosen a set of lenses, work out the most important part of the equation - what to put in front of the camera.

8 minutes ago, leslie said:

i like the look of your frame grabs, that gives me some hope that my m42's may be ok with the bmp4k time will tell no doubt.

AFAIK, the only difference is possibly the crop factor?  BMPCC v1 had a larger crop than true M43, but my understanding is that m42 lenses were for FF so image circle should easily be large enough.  The problem might be the C-mount lenses that were borderline, even for the original Pocket.

I'm using mine without a speed booster, so coverage isn't an issue at all.

3 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

You can mod the Zhiyun Smooth Q to take and RX100 relatively painlessly.

Some tutorials and examples here.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=smooth+q+rx100

Wow!  I stand corrected.  That is pretty darn cool.

I'm now sitting here looking at my GH5 and the DJI Osmo Mobile 2 that I bought and basically never use...  hmm.  In a sense, it looks like you just hack it until it's balanced really well.

I got a couple of vintage lenses today for my new MFT setup, and I couldn't be happier.  In fact I was so excited that when I discovered I'd bought the wrong adapter (who puts "M42-MFT" in the title of an eBay auction for a Nikon-MFT adapter - seriously!) that I cut a small section of PVC pipe to act as a spacer and tried a few free-lens style tests.

All frames are grabs from 4K 50p 8-bit 150Mbit HLG file exported to Prores 422.  

Hellios 44M-4 58mm F2 on MFT (2x crop makes it 116mm FOV)

Yashica yashikor 28mm f2.8 (2x crop makes it 56mm FOV)

and lucky last, just for comparison, my decidedly non-vintage native MFT Panasonic 14mm F2.5 pancake lens.

The vintage lenses look so much nicer.  The GH5 was on AWB so I'm not sure if the changes in the colour came from the lens or AWB or late afternoon sun.  However, notice the lovely elliptical bokeh of the Hellios, and the lowered contrast of the vintage lenses.  Also, the highlights have a bit of flare on the Yashica that look like a slight Tiffen Black Pro Mist filter, very nice.  That might also be due to the front coating being basically worn off on that lens

I haven't shot into the sun with these yet, so no idea on flares, but they look pretty darn good to me.  Even the files with only 150Mbit look so nice - reminding me a little of the soft but clear look of the original BMPCC.  This is what I was hoping for in the GH5 / vintage lens combo.

I've got a Nikon Nippon Kogaku Cine-NIKKOR-C 13mm F1.9 lens on its way that is a gamble about if it will cover the MFT sensor, and I will pick up an 8mm SLR Magic at some point too to round out the set, but very nice so far..  With the exception of ordering the right M42-MFT adapter, I couldn't be happier!  and considering you can't even buy a sensibly sized memory card for what I spent....

7 hours ago, mercer said:

On a different note, I assume this is impossible due to weight limitations, but I really like the design of the Freefly Mövi iPhone Camera Robot... it would be really cool if the iPhone mount could be modified to make an RX100iv or other small p&s camera to work with it.

I would imagine there's no hope of that - partly due to the motors likely being as only powerful enough to move the phone around, but also the centre of mass of a phone is within its thickness and anything you mount will be sticking a lot further forwards or backwards and wouldn't balance.

In terms of those handles with springs to smooth out vertical motion, I doubt they can be used at an angle, which would mean that you have to have the gimbal handle vertical for the whole shot.  This is possible, but if your shot requires any tilting then you'll have to operate it electronically instead of using the gimbal in a follow mode.  Also, will you have the room to manoeuvre if the rig is vertical?  You probably would, but just make sure.  One of the awesome things about a gimbal is that you can put it in follow mode and then run around waving it like a sword and get whatever shots you want, panning and tilting as you desire, and fitting through tight spots and holding it comfortably as you go.

@Sage I'm ready to buy but I'm not sure which WB to get.  I shoot in all conditions and use auto-WB.  I'm comfortable adjusting WB in Resolve if it's not quite right and I only do non-professional work so isn't completely critical.  Does it matter which version I get?

Also to consider is that there can sometimes be a difference between something being illegal and being treated like it was illegal and getting banned from a site.

I've seen a few examples of sites like YouTube (or PayPal) blocking users for some reason and then not responding to appeals.  Being in the right but locked out of your account until you take legal action against YT to force them to re-activate your account isn't a great position to be in, and unfortunately the MPAA / RIAA lobbying about copyright enforcement is continually threatening to change the law from being innocent-until-proven-guilty to the other way around, so these companies basically do whatever the copyright holders want - false positives be damned...

Having said that my impression was that large youtubers tend to use whatever they want and just demonetise a video that has a copyright claim.  Of course, if a big youtuber complains to YT then they listen, but the rest of us might not experience the same level of service.

In a sense it might be a choice between playing it safe or exercising your rights but having to fight a potentially unfair battle for them.

I will definitely use HLG for 4K25 10-bit.  Slow-motion modes are the question - HLG is only available externally for 60p or 180p but I don't use an external recorder so I must use an alternate picture profile.  @jonpais what PP would you recommend for 60/180p internal recording?  It seems like Cinelike-D was the favourite profile before HLG was released?

I think we have similar shooting styles @anonim - I want to configure the camera at home and then when I go out shooting I also want to be "sparing all precious time/concentration for evaluating composition of image" as you say

I am really looking forward to 10-bit images.  I found that 8-bit C-Log on my XC10 was normally fine, even to adjust WB and exposure in post, and I don't have as demanding shooting scenarios as you so I can be happy with more ISO noise and colour shifts, but extra bit depth certainly won't hurt 

Also, how much difference is there between the 400Mbit and 150Mbit modes for 4K25 10-bit?

4 hours ago, Emanuel said:

The whole point is BMD guys are slow to compete with hybrid features like AF and IBIS as for instance or even a different camera range in the same segment.

Hybrids arrived to a certain point Jannard's DSMC intended to be. Scarlet 3K for 3K, now lowered to 1K-1.5K (BMD realized that but they struggle to deliver hybrid features).

4 hours ago, jonpais said:

Just off the top of my head, the GH5 was a big leap in terms of codecs and functionality over the GH4; the X-T3 has a video prowess nobody imagined possible just a couple generations ago; and the EOS R introduced an on/off dial: hardly what I’d call incremental improvements. 

I realise that other companies are also no slouch at innovation, and I was half-kidding about wanting to be a BMD fanboy.

In terms of BMD being slow to compete with hybrid features, well yeah, we're back about half-a-dozen pages in this thread where I was basically shouting from the rooftops about it being a cinema camera....  but in a sense it has taken a half-step to being a hybrid as it does have some of the hybrid features, albeit weak implementations.  

I think it's trying to be a hybrid and failing about as much as hybrids are trying to be cinema cameras and failing.  Everyone wants the best of both worlds and as various manufacturers offer up cameras that get closer and closer to the middle ground between the two we're getting more and more confused about what type of cameras there are, what types there should be, and what types are best for us (and the job we have at hand..).

I am pretty stoked at how fast Resolve has come over the last few years though.  In that regard they're basically the only ones jumping ahead significantly.

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I can not identify, not even one BM fanboy here!

I can see a bunch attacking the P4K for something that it isn't (a hybrid camera), some that pre-ordered and finding it an excellent and cheap solution for their needs, and some (the majority I assume, including me) that are really intrigued by this release from -used to be- a small player that can easily fit many people's workflow, but we are waiting for real world reviews and to check quality and software issues.

I'd love to be a BM fanboy..  they're pushing out products that are big leaps forward, not the usual "it's 4% better than last-years model" that is so common.

I love Resolve, despite it being buggy and now so complicated it might be easier to actually fly the space shuttle, but they just don't make cameras targeted at me! ???

2 hours ago, Yannick Willox said:

If I want to save on storage, I could shoot the P4K at 1080P & prores LT. Now that would be an interesting comparison, the full HD of the GH5s versus P4K ? Amazing nobody looked at that angle yet. I thought one of the major gripes with current hybrid cams is that they are all optimized for 4K.

I agree.  We may find that the 1080 output (either 1080 RAW, 1080 Prores, or 4K to 1080 downscale in post) is a really cinematic sweet spot.  I'm looking forward to those tests.

1 hour ago, Shirozina said:

Which is why I'm buying one to complement but not replace my GH5 

I will make a judgement call on the image quality when I do my own tests but I am managing my expectations based upon that fact that using the GH5 with an HLG capture and Resolve Color managed workflow I'm not complaining about it's image quality at all.

It certainly would be a good compliment between the GH5 and P4K.  Both great cameras, but optimised for different tasks.  I think you have the right attitude - not the "which is better" mindset, but the "the best tool for the job depends on the job" mindset

2 hours ago, anonim said:

Congratulation... I think that GH5, with its plenty of customization choices, offers also extremely simplified, a la "cinema camera"  solution for concentrating mostly on composition's tasks. Maybe as probably totally needless little suggestions that me personally like and use extensively:

- explore greatly effective ETC solution and set it to one of the button or mod

- try to shoot everything with HLG, because there's so little or nothing of settings to bother with (as with Vlog) and results are the best in DR (resolving shadows/keeping highlghts - besides it will work easy with GHa luts in post

- set button switch for two different ibis options, regarding "steady" (IS video lock) and "moving" stabilization goals (also you can set 3 different custom option for quickly change 3 focal lengths)

- As you already mention, @Sage approach totally  change not just "color science" and resulting look, but also, and more important, DR distribution  that greatly bring up usability of tonal range  (for my preferences, I like the most conversion to Alexa's log and than look for further grading if I really need it).

Regarding 4:3 open gate mode, it seems that there's less sharpening in it, but files are huge and demanding and have to be converted first even for the extremely powerful computers. Of course, for some difficult and unprepared compositions task, it could be life saver... but I'm sure you already guess it better than me.

For artistic inspiration - we are happy here to have some talented shooters with obvious open minded freedom and time to explore their talent, say @Oliver Daniel as first to come in mind.

For different orientation in professional spectre - If you did not already, maybe check infos and suggestions from that nice professional wedding shooter couple "White in reverie" - although their color preferences wouldn't be your first choice also, but they obviously are very serious in business and not joking at all preferring GH5 for its friendly and wide working flexibility/usability/durability. You have 2-3 more clips on youtube...

 

Thanks Anonim!

I've mapped the ETC and IS Video Lock to buttons.  That IS Video Lock is really great - I just tried it for walking and it does a really respectable job - almost gimbal-like movement, and in a couple of places perhaps even a bit floaty for my tastes.  Definitely something to reach for when I want more aggressive stabilisation, and of course, a static shot

I just setup HLG, but unfortunately it's not available in 4K60 or 180fps modes...  what would you suggest for filming slow-motion shots?  Cineline-D seemed to be the previous favourite?  I'm ok in Resolve to match shots ok, but getting it closer to HLG would be nicer

I think I like the GHa conversion more for the highlight softening than I do for the colour, and the colour is pretty darn nice.  I was contemplating a new thread about how much of 'colour science' is hue and how much is luminance, but that's another topic.

I have so much to learn and so much reading to do.  With the XC10 there was basically no-one talking about it and no support whatsoever, and now for the GH5 it will be a matter of sifting through the content to get the good bits because there's so much of it around!  Of course, better to have too much advice than too little, and I ingest information pretty easily, so it's definitely the problem I'd rather have.

I have done some tests with the 14mm 2.5 and all I can say is I can't wait until my other lenses arrive!  Neither the f2.5 or the MF ring of this lens are really floating my boat, but the IQ looks lovely, and I don't even have a 400Mbit capable memory card yet, so I've only played with 150Mbit files.

Does anyone use the 4:3 open gate mode without anamorphic lenses?  This guy thinks it's a winner, and he compares it to a RAW photo, but doesn't compare it with the DCI 4K 400Mbit mode which might be just as good perhaps?

Thanks @jonpais - I actually watched his video last night!

I just wrote a big post asking how to set things up the way I wanted, but I figured it out.  I now have C1 as C4K-10bit, C2 as 4K60, and C3 as 1080p180, with all of them in Aperture priority and auto-ISO.  I couldn't work out how to set this up until I realised I could set a bunch of things in "Camera-M" mode but then save them to the Custom modes...  I was in the Custom mode looking for movie settings that weren't available in the menus!  A confusing start, but I think I'm there.

So now, 24 hours after bought it, I think I'm ready to record my first test clip! ???

I only have the 14mm 2.5 on it for the moment until next week when my m42 adapter and lenses show up.  I'm anticipating another steep learning curve at that point

Of course, there will also be learning curves when: I pull footage into Resolve for the first time, I buy the V-Log update, I get the GHa package, etc etc etc...

I'm now an official member of the GH5 owners club.  Spent three hours last night trying to understand the settings and set up the camera how I want it.  I am so confused!!

I'll work it out, but holy wow, the complex interactions of the record format, record quality, VFR option, and system frequency settings are making my brain hurt..

Have you posted in the BM forums?  

Those forums are good because that's where the real power users hang out but I've definitely noticed that it's mainly people helping each other, and BM typically fix it in a future release or just leave people hanging with bugs that don't get fixed over many many releases.  BM are more focussed on fast development rather than taking their time to make every release polished and super stable.  I guess that's the price for the crazy number of features they provide for the price.

13 hours ago, jonpais said:

A smartphone in case all else fails. ?

This is true..  and these days, it's not a terrible backup option

11 hours ago, anonim said:

Camera and one of the Seneca's book being close, perhaps wouldn't be bad experiment?

(Of course, that just in the case you are not using already "dead" system.)

Good point!  even if it took me a while to work out what you were talking about ???

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The Pocket 4K has a lot of interesting features, of course, but somebody needs to do a proper comparison of 8bit, 10bit, ProRes, LOG, RAW, etc. Because the image quality is closer between them than people realise, when it comes to the end-result.

I've had Blackmagic cameras in the past, and it's fun pulling around a raw file in Resolve and seeing all that dynamic range on demand, but then I have also had a lot of enjoyment out of 8bit S-LOG and Canon LOG too. Seeing how silky smooth, noise-less the shadows are in low light from a full frame sensor, being able to fluidly play it back and slap on a LUT over Canon 1D C footage - wow - you wouldn't know THAT was 8bit. Instantly nice colour and dynamic range. Same with Hybrid LOG Gamma from an A7 III, or V-LOG with the GH5 and F-LOG on an X-T3. Even the EOS R, for all its faults, has an amazing ALL-I codec with film-like colour - and it's 8bit.

We are trading a lot of things on the Pocket 4K for that RAW codec. 10bit too, but others offer that now, so it's not unique to Blackmagic. Out goes a large sensor, out goes decent video AF, out goes IBIS, out goes articulated screen, battery life, high quality body, weather sealing and more besides. So it is important not to over hype it, as some have been doing on this thread. I have nothing against the Blackmagic Pocket 4K, but it has to be seen objectively.

I do have a little bit of annoyance pent up at the company, for their lame availability and non-support of EOSHD despite the tons of work I have done over the years to bring people's knowledge up to speed on their cameras and Resolve, but I am not going to let that influence the review once I finally get one.

Still no luck on that front BTW.

1 hour ago, mercer said:

As I previously noted, I was being hyperbolic with murder and obliterate but that doesn’t negate the fact that ProRes XQ at +700 mbps should look better than 400 mbps of the GH5. And in some ways it does but I don’t know if it looks almost twice as good.

After I posted those shots of the Philip Bloom pushed and pulled around I had the same thoughts and wondered how well other lesser footage would respond.  So I pulled in a shot from my XC10 in C-Log and a shot from my 700D and applied the same push and pull.  I expected both to not stand up, and of course the 700D footage broke so hard it looked like modern art, but the 305Mbit 8-bit C-Log from the XC10 looked just fine.

As I don't film like PB I didn't have a shot with similar tonal distribution, and then all my thoughts about how camera comparisons aren't done right (by basically anyone) so I didn't end up posting them.

I really like the look of the OG Pocket and this one hasn't given the same wow factor, but considering that BM release early and tweak, considering that we've not had many examples of footage that was well shot, considering the extensive camera tests that high-end cinematographers do with a new camera working out it's sweet spots and optimal settings, and the maturity of understanding with other contenders like the GH5, A7Sii, etc, we really can't tell what potential there is in this camera yet.

I'm interested in how much redundant equipment people bring in case of malfunctions.

I know it's not that common to take two bodies or duplicate lenses and that it's basically inevitable that people have multiple batteries and media, but who takes things like duplicate battery chargers, card readers, microphones, cables, and computers on set or when travelling?

I shoot travel so tend to travel light, but I'm contemplating buying a spare charger, card reader, and a few little bits like that to lessen the number of single-points-of-failure while I'm out travelling.

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

It also has a nifty function where it saves the information about the monitoring LUT you were using in the metadata of the clip which is then picked up and displayed in the clip field in Resolve.

I like the baked in LUT function too but as an alternative if you need to turn things round quickly in HD while still retaining the option to have a more flexible master in 4K for future finessing then the option of being able to apply the LUT to the HDMI output is a very good reason to pick up a used Atomos Ninja Star off eBay. 

Wow..  that will be such a great combo.  I know that time is money for people who have to turn things around quickly as you say, but this could also be a way of getting proxy files to edit with but not having to wait for the computer to render them when you ingest the footage.

A good media management program (or even just a script like I have) would mean it's not that much harder to ingest the footage from two sources instead of one.

Indeed it is.  I've seen lots of YouTubers do their tutorials in mixing sound and adding foley and it's truly amazing at how much latitude you have with making things still believable.  and how much the sound really makes a difference.

I've heard people say that the picture is for the viewers brain and the sound is for the viewers emotions.

I think excellent sound and music is one of the reasons I like many movies.  A few that come to mind is The Hours and Run Lola Run, and I'm also reminded of the cult Australian hit Hercules Returns.  Highly recommended

2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah Raw is Always going to win with good grading skills. Look at the Canon ML results. And so is ProRes, especially with company's that have good Color Science. It is the better Codec because it is 10, 12, 14 bit and has a data rate out the wazoo. I have been seeing better grading from just what seems normal people than BMD themselves seemed to produce in the beginning. Kind of odd to me. So there is hope for this camera. But you better load up with recording media and a shit pot full of batteries. Sort of sounds familiar doesn't it. ?

Yep.  and for those who are used to shooting in those rec709 profiles and throwing on a LUT in post it's definitely a case of "oh Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore!!" ???

11 hours ago, mojo43 said:

People think you are just some silly tourist with an rx100, which maybe I am hahaha

You might be a silly tourist, but in film-making terms you're definitely not!  Truly nice work, and if the modest setup is limiting you then it's not coming through in the edit.

Makes me want to sell everything and buy an RX100 and just go shoot stuff, which is a sign of a successful film!

Subscribed.

7 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

By the way, I just realised the interview with Dave takes place between two ferns. Will have to invest in a better backdrop next time!!

Or just own it, and do every interview between two ferns!!  Surely there are some fake ones you can buy that will come apart and fit into a tripod bag??

???

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Hard to put a percentage, but a lot of the time you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Olympus and Panasonic stabilization. It's really only when you push it to the limits does one clearly outperform the other. You won't notice much difference though in basic/typical handheld shooting. 

Thanks, that's what I was thinking.  I've read that Olympus helped Panasonic with the IBIS in the GH5 and that's why it's so good, but the difference seems to be more like 10-20% better rather than night-and-day.  

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Hmm, I know the GH5 has a ton more features but after using my friend’s E-M10iii, watching videos from that camera on here, and just spending a little while watching online videos from the E-M1ii, I think the overall image is just more organic from the E-M1ii compared to the GH5.

It looks like the Olympus has about a half a stop less dynamic range, and is only 8bit compared to 10bit on the GH5, but the colors still look nicer on the Olympus. And from what I have read, the Olympus has near 6.5 stops of stabilization and clearly beats the GH5. The G9 may be closer to the Olympus than the GH5 with IBIS. And in fact, I think fuzzy is right that the EM5ii has better IBIS than the GH5. Hopefully the E-M5iii will be released soon and best all of the above.

I also have a feeling that Olympus is the next company to watch and think they may actually be the first consumer camera company to offer Raw or ProRes on one of their cams. We’ll see. 

Yes, ideally I'd wait, but I've run out of time before my next trip so I'm picking up a GH5 today.

In the end it was the 10-bit, 4K60, 1080p180, 29 minute limit and the noisy preamps on the EM1ii that swayed me.  Even if the image and stabilisation is nicer, those are still differences I can't get past unfortunately.  The EM1ii looks like a much better camera for stills, especially with PDAF and the 50MP sensor shift, but I'm almost 100% video so it's just not the right match for me.

11 hours ago, wolf33d said:

I think it’s mainly a question of resolution. 

In most of the mentionned cameras we get upscaled 720p thus poor looking images. It’s true that the bitrate is also too low for Sony for example.

Of course..  I didn't think of that.   It's like they're cheating lol

record 360p and upscale in camera to 4K.....