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This thread suddenly got very useful!! and the BMPCC4K seems to just get better and better with more information released...!

As someone with a pretty average life (job, family, house, car, etc) who shoots with my GoPro a lot I actually disagree about them being good for family events. They're wide angle, which means that you have to either zoom in, which is pretty difficult to hold them remotely still (unless you rig them up, in which case just use a larger camera with IS) or film everything close up, which is kind of strange and the lens distortions are EXTREMELY UNFLATTERING to average people (who don't have the figures of models or people used to seeing themselves on TV). I actually agree with @Kisaha that the best cameras for recording normal life is the smartphone, as it has many of the advantages but also lots less disadvantages. Also, I think that action cameras are cameras that require huge amounts of editing to get good end results from. You film things close up, film things that are moving quickly (either in slow-mo or real-time), put them over fast music and do a fast edit with lots of cuts. That's the GoPro aesthetic. I think this video proves that: In researching a replacement for my GoPro I was reading forums about potential other cameras, and one person said their camera recorded nice quality at first but later on in the file the quality reduced. One of the replies was to only shoot short clips because "long clips are really boring" - obviously that person assumed the clips wouldn't be edited at all! Last month I shot a film at a club for a friends birthday (I posted it in the GoPro replacement thread) and I shot it with my GoPro precisely because I didn't want to pass my phone to drunken adults in a club. Plus I wouldn't have gotten my DJI Osmo Mobile 2 past security - they took a few long looks at my Bobber handle that I had on it. Completely agree. I did actually go swimming with my iPhone 8 deliberately at the beach when I first got it as I was wondering if I could replace my GoPro with it. I haven't edited the footage yet, but I can tell you the 1080p240 at 400% quality from MoviePro app looks absolutely spectacular in full-afternoon-sun, the screen only worked sometimes, and it took a few hours to dry out afterwards before it would charge properly again. I actually did what you're not meant to do and I plugged it in to charge, so it should have killed something but I was lucky. With your phone you don't have anything else to carry, you get a nice large screen (huge by camera standards), you can edit in-camera, and you can upload direct from the device. Action cameras require SD card adapters a full computer or hours of file transfer time, and all the stuffing around that keeps an army of post-production staff employed around the world. I have a big camera with zoom lens which is good for everything except being discrete (or wider than 24mm), my phone which is very discreet but no zoom, and my GoPro which is waterproof and very wide. In this sense it's a specialist camera used for very particular things.

The gyroscope stabilisation sounds interesting. I've done tests in the past and found that basically there are two levels of stabilisation required: stabilisation that limits small/fast movement while the shutter is open (creating blur - this can only be solved by OIS or IBIS), and stabilisation that keeps shot-to-shot movement at bay (where gyroscopes, warp stabiliser style stabilisation, gimbals, and to a certain extent OIS / IBIS can help). I noticed on the above video that there's a need for both levels of stabilisation. I use Resolve for the shot-to-shot stabilisation, but with these videos fast-paced edits are the norm and so movement isn't as detracting as other styles of films. Interesting, but I think the 1.4x zoom is too severe for me.. Pity! I didn't realise that this had a waterproof case - that makes a huge difference. I've just watched a bunch of review videos on this and I think this is the leading option for me at the moment. The fact that iPhonedo YT channel continually uses this as part of his run-and-gun setup for reviewing other cameras (including all the major action cameras) speaks volumes about the quality level. Also the higher bitrate would be excellent because with action cameras you're normally moving them around all the time so the bits aren't just dedicated to a few items in the frame moving, they're spread across the whole frame moving constantly. The lack of screen doesn't phase me (it's an action camera, so you point it vaguely in the right direction and you're good) but there's a remote screen for it which you can buy. Any idea if it's about to get an upgrade? I did some googling but couldn't find much about it, and it seems that sonyrumours has turned into some kind of news site ? In terms of GoPro Hero 6 I watched a few reviews where it was worse than the 5, so if I didn't end up with a Sony FDR-X3000 then I might consider waiting for the Hero 6+ which should be out Just In Time For Christmas, I'd imagine. Considering that the FDR-X3000 is approaching 1.5 years old (it was also out Just In Time For Christmas) it might be worth waiting in either case. If only the RX0 had a wider lens and 200Mbit codec.... (or if BM releases the Black Magic Matchbox Cinema Action Camera 4K.. hint hint... It would shoot in Prores and have BM colour science and be called the BMMCAC4K. With an acronym like that I bet they're making it already!)

Thanks mate! You're right that it was in the protective case - in a previous video I did someone kept kissing the lens so it was much easier to deal with. I tried to be really careful and clean the lens and both inside and outside of the case, but looks like I didn't succeed. It looked pretty clean though beforehand and during This was Protune with Cam RAW WB but I think that's the limit to optimising it. The Protune 2.0 settings seem useful and having the NR in camera turned off would be an improvement, although I'm not sure if having more noise or NR before the low bit-rate codec would be better. I may be the first person to suggest this (but maybe not) - but BM should make an action camera!!! Thanks! If I could use a larger non-waterproof camera then my GF3 m43 camera wouldn't be sitting in my drawer gathering dust The Sony seems excellent but it's just the lens isn't wide enough. Maybe I should see if there's a mod?

Despite having lots of nice cameras, I find that I've used my GoPro Hero 3 consistently over the last 5 years, but I'm frustrated with the quality and looking to replace it. My critical requirements are: Waterproof Very wide angle (~17mm or wider) Half-decent low-light performance Relatively small form factor (for hand-holding - doesn't have to be wearable) 4K or high bitrate 1080 (lots of movement causes compression artefacts galore) Doesn't have to have a screen I use it for shooting while swimming and for parties. The combination of waterproof, wide-angle and small means that people can pass it around and using it as a selfie-camera can still get themselves in shot, it doesn't freak out other people at the beach or whatever (it's still borderline though), and can be used in clubs or private venues without getting hassled by security (security had a couple of good looks at my gopro with "bobber" handle, but probably more concerned with its ability to be used as a weapon). Here are some issues I have with the Hero 3 - from a shoot about a month ago in a club: Overpowering flares (I wonder if this is my camera being old and having some coatings fail or something? if not then this may be common to other cameras though) High ISO and bad compression problems (these shots are already processed with with HEAVY NR in Resolve using masks and edge detection etc - original files are much worse!) I still got a good video out of it but it would be nice to have a bump in IQ.. It doesn't have to be a huge improvement but just something that doesn't make me disappointed every time I'm looking at the raw footage The wide-angle and ability to film lots of cool camera angles really suits the style of film. Final video: Candidates I've considered. GoPro Hero 6 - possible, but I'm not sure if the ISO performance will be much better? Expensive. GoPro Hero 5 Session - I like that it's tiny, but unsure about ISO performance? Can't exchange batteries, so battery life might be an issue? Reasonably priced. Yi 4k+ - unsure about ISO performance? RX0 - not wide angle enough, expensive. Any ideas or advice?

Wow, this thread is getting hard to keep up with.. is everyone hammering away on their phones or is everyone retired or between client jobs or something?? That's kind of like saying that Audi had too much of a hand in taming the latest Lamborghini and so you're going to be happy with your Ferrari and just pickup a second hand Lotus Elise to go to the shops and whatever...!!!! Agreed. As a Resolve user I would also say that the fact they're coming from the same manufacturer is also a significant plus for me. In terms of this camera being so flexible (and therefore requiring all the work to be done in post) the fact that Resolve will be optimised to handle the footage well in terms of the formats, colour science, etc takes a significant amount of the risk out of it for me. If instead we were talking about ML, then Resolve has no camera RAW, no support for the colour science, etc. (Sorry for the empty multi-quote Django - for some reason I can't remove the last quote from you.. )

I agree with your analysis, however don't mistake overall trends with niche markets or individuals. If there's a niche that is unfulfilled and the OP fills it, it could work well. In terms of how risky it is, that's something for the OP to assess.

Yeah, and I think I've said before that the more flexible something is the harder it is to get what you want. On a sliding scale between using Instagram (which 3-year olds can do) and shooting ARRIRAW (where professional colourists are required), this is at the difficult end and requiring the colourist skillset, however the killer aspect of this camera is that its price is at the Instagram end.

Yes - they could well be. On this note, it might be interesting to include a 360 camera in your setup (even just rent one perhaps) and take it to a few cool locations and put them up for sale and see how you go. Considering you're going to all the trouble of going places to film anyway it might not be a huge addition to your costs. 360 is another whole thing and requires different shooting techniques (from what I understand you need to set up the camera on a monopod hit record and then go hide for the time it's recording).

At the risk of getting flamed (yet again) for posting logic instead of camera specifications, here is my take on it. You are talking about starting a business - therefore this is a business question not just a technical question You should be choosing your equipment based upon two factors: what type of files will sell, and what it will cost you to get those files to market I have spoken to a few people who make money from stock footage (I'm not an expert by any means) but what I was told is that a few clips will sell like hot-cakes and the majority will hardly sell at all, and you can never predict which is which, so you basically try and output as many clips as possible to maximise your chances. They also said that things can sit and sell solidly for years, decades sometimes (I got told about real examples of stills imagery doing this). It's a long game that takes ages to build income but can have a return that also lasts a long time, your historical content also supports longevity of sales. So my recommendation about what will sell is to future proof yourself with formats. 4K was a dream only recently and now my phone does 4K60 - these things change quickly. More resolution might be useful for things other than broadcast standards (3d trackers for example love resolution). The cost of your camera is only a small part of the total time to identify locations, research best shooting times of day and seasons, arrange permission and releases, travel there, setup, shoot, as well as all the post-production, media management, and management of a sales pipeline. In terms of what it costs to get files to market you should consider what formats might be easier to handle in post. If you're shipping the files straight-out-of-camera then it's a question of what the sites you're selling on or end-customers will require, otherwise you should consider what transcoding or other conversions are required. Not all media standards are created equal. I hope this proves useful - and best of luck finding those winning clips that sell regularly and turning this into a profitable venture!

IIRC the fashion is to have shallow depth of field but the killer technique with Sony users (no front-facing screen there either!) is to extend your arm out with fingers pointed up and focus on them, as when holding the camera that's the same focus distance as hand to your face.. :D In reply to the above and also in general, we're in (yet another) situation where worlds collide. World #1 is people who shoot RAW and see the camera as a tiny cinema camera. In this sense SDI > HDMI and professional standards > consumer standards. World #2 is people who want the 'best' ILC camera for under $2000. In this sense, HDMI > SDI, consumer standards > professional standards, and front-facing buttons/screens/etc are nice features to have. Neither world is wrong, it's just that before the DSLR revolution and YouTube these two worlds had never touched before. Now they're in full collision mode. Camera companies are trying to make products that appeal to both worlds and failing to connect, and both worlds look each other up and down then go back to whispering in separate groups like 10-year-olds in the school-yard. In a decade we'll have worked out how big the market for online video is, how many people it can sustain at the various levels of quality, and what products make sense. At the moment it's a mess, where the 'best vlogging camera' debate includes your phone, the RX100, the Canon M50, the Sony A7III, and the Pocket 2. Any application that includes tools as varied as that lineup should indicate that we still haven't worked out what the hell is going on yet.

Ouch. That totally sucks.. sorry to hear it. With the kind of budget I have for equipment that's a nightmare scenario Super Aids is just awesome!! I'd go for MEDICAL WASTE I saw regular reports of thieves taking equipment when I was reading the stills photography blogs daily. Even at the Olympics where they used a two-person team to distract and then steal rolling pelican cases of stuff Luckily in that example they had security footage and the photogs banded together to raise awareness and encourage the police to catch them, so the guy even got his gear back before the games started. The setup I've used previously was to have a normal backpack and add one of these into it: It's tall enough to have a Canon 700D with 55-250mm zoom mounted on it fit into the middle section so it's bigger than it looks. I've used it for carrying equipment on my carry-on for flights and also transferred to a lighter day-pack for shooting excursions. On the most recent trip when I had the XC10 / Rode VideoMic Pro+ / Gorillapod 5K it wasn't quite so handy. I used QR plates to separate the Gorillapod from camera, but with the Rode VMP+ on the hot shoe of the camera it had to be put in vertically which meant holding the mic to take it in and out which wasn't ideal. I didn't want the hassle of having to take the mic on and off the camera each time as it prevents getting quick shots. So I'm thinking I'll have to review this setup unfortunately, so I'm not sure what I'll do about it yet.

Similar advice to when you don't want your camera to get stolen I've been reluctant to go for a larger sized camera body, as before I got into photography that was how I judged if a person was a professional photographer (wrong I know, but it is what it is)! In terms of looking the part, I think I've got that down... I just got back from a 10 day trip to the Northern Territory of Australia and in addition to the shorts, t-shirt, backpack, and scowl from wrangling kids I also bought one of these so I didn't burnt to a crisp in the sun: I'm pretty sure that no-one, after seeing my hat, had the inclination to take me seriously

I can't confirm it but your assumption makes sense. It also means trouble for what is fast enough to write to it! RAW at 60p would be 540MB/s Taking a look at the most expensive cards on B&H: ARRI 512GB Extreme PRO CFast 2.0 Memory Card - 450MB/s Angelbird 256GB AV Pro CF CFast 2.0 Memory Card - 400MB/s Lexar 512GB Professional 3500x CFast 2.0 Memory Card - 445MB/s ProGrade Digital 512GB CFast 2.0 Memory Card - 450MB/s of course, sane people would just shoot compressed, but considering this thread is about specs...

For me it's actually slightly different - I'm shooting totally legally but I must still be clandestine. I'm shooting in places where people can shoot video of their kid with their phone, but if I shot the same shot with a C300 then I would get kicked out or get hassled or attract unwanted attention from the surrounding public. I'm not doing anything wrong, but I also want to use a better camera than my phone without getting hassled, thus the need to be clandestine. With your 5d3, what lenses and sound equipment do you use? and where do you shoot? I find it to be a question of how big your camera setup looks that is the main factor unfortunately...

When my sister was in film school I helped out on a few sets where the AD was present in name only.... you'd hope that once people start getting paid that things would improve!!

I'm not sure if you were asking for recommendations, or just being thankful that I offered... but regardless, here's a few 'vlogging' channels with high production value: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpnuadQ_w3r6f4Q_NRlqd-w Kraig Adams - makes vlogs and travel films on A7SII - used to be a pro wedding videographer https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3DkFux8Iv-aYnTRWzwaiBA Peter McKinnon - makes photography / videography focused vlogs and shoots C300 in studio and 1DXII out of the office Here's a few channels with high production value that aren't 'vlogging' channels: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3stPIuUoCDHG7COfwr0tEA Brandon Li - makes short travel films with A7 cameras https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2hAbftpVjHtFrDOpEM90aA Action Movie Kid - short videos where the (average IQ) videos are CG'd by a professional CG guy https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJHA_jMfCvEnv-3kRjTCQXw Binging with Babish - cooking videos shot on A7SII with Atomos ext recorder and just for sanity, here's potentially the best YT channel out there, which is probably shot on a point-and-shoot... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA Primitive Technology, which is videos of a guy making things without any tools - he literally has a pair of shorts on and walked into the jungle and makes things with what he finds. Why is it so great? He doesn't talk, there's no music, but they're still hugely engaging. It's a combination of "what is he doing?" and one of those rainforest tapes people meditate to. This is a channel where the content is so good I don't give a sh*t what it's shot on. I got as far as him saying he "looked at the spec sheet and....". Judging a camera from the specs alone is the equivalent of judging a restaurant by googling recipes of the dishes on the restaurants menu. The fact that this thread is mostly around this has not escaped me! :D

Need for an external monitor depends on how you use it. If camera is on a tripod then you're probably fine, but if you're hand-holding for an ability to quickly get a variety of shots then you might miss a screen that can't articulate vertically. In terms of hand-holding I can hand-hold my XC10 / Gorillapod 5K setup with my arms fully outstretched at 240mm steady enough so that the IS locks the shot with no movement, so it is possible. Depends on the vlogger and what you'd call a "vlogger" (as opposed to many other styles of YT film-making). I see YouTubers with A7SII / Atomos external recorders, C300s, C100s, 1DXII, A7RIII, GH5, GH5s, EVA, etc. If you definition of 'vlogger' is only people that prattle endlessly into the selfie camera on their phone while walking somewhere to get their nails done, then your definition needs expanding radically. I'm happy to provide examples of YT channels with high production value if you're interested.

Peter McKinnon leading the way once again by taking YT videos up a notch by taking the selfie stick concept and inventing the Canadian Cinema Stick.... Yes, that's a C200, and yes, he uses it while riding an electric skateboard. Now the BMPCC4K doesn't seem quite so extreme

Quite significantly it would seem!! CONGRATULATIONS!! You are now the official editor of all of my home videos!! Just tell me how I get all my footage to you - I think I have about 4Tb so far :D I am not sure how many people here shoot with what levels of planning, hmmm, maybe I'll start a poll. I shoot with an equipment checklist and no plan. Obviously there is planning for a day out at a fair, or for a family holiday, or a trip somewhere, but there is nothing beyond that. I shoot what happens, when it happens, with no intervention. I try and shoot so that I have enough footage to make a coherent story in post, so I try and concentrate on establishing shots (which I'm quite forgetful at), transition shots (normally us moving between locations), and then the shots of interest. about $1000!

I'm a little confused.. are you saying that you shoot productions with scripts, boards, and lights, but don't have budget for locations? If you're doing all that and trying to not get noticed / hassled then wow - good luck to you! In terms of IQ, it's all relative. If you're shooting a Hollywood blockbuster but say that image quality doesn't matter that much then you might still be shooting with a F5 instead of a Venice, but if you were a vlogger who said that image quality was their most important aspect they might be shooting with a GH5s instead of an RX10. It's hard on these forums to know what situations and levels people are at, so pitching your comments to one person can be difficult and if it's to a whole discussion it might be impossible because of the different assumptions from different people (and even if you take the time to fully explain yourself then people just don't read it..)

Lots of YT videos are shot inside a home studio set which is permanently setup. In this case camera size is almost totally irrelevant. However, that isn't what this thread is about In terms of camera size and it looking 'pro' with my XC10 / Rode VMP+ / Gorillapod 5K setup I get jaw-dropping stares and overhear conversations that go for minutes at a time about my setup from members of the general public. I'd be nervous about buying something like a 1DX and wouldn't even consider a C100 just because of the size and 'pro' appearance. I've seen quite a few vloggers get stopped by the police or security guards, who insist on saying that photography is not permitted, despite it being a public place. I just did a bit of googling to find any easy examples, and found one mention of someone that got stopped for taking photographs of the moon! It seems that you get stopped if your camera looks 'better' or bigger than the average tourist, if you use a tripod, if you have lighting, or if you have any extra people. If you have a day job then maybe you do have deep pockets. I am an office worker who has worked in the head office of many companies and I think that about 1% of office workers own a 5dIII to take pictures of their kids. There's a cashed up tech savvy middle class out there... If I was shooting indoor vlogs with the camera on a tripod I would consider an ex cinema camera if it had good IQ and codecs. [Edit: I didn't realise that an Alexa Mini was *that* expensive. I don't think office workers would own one of those!!]

Hmmm.. you have a point!! Personally, I would consider it, but would do AB tests with prores first to see what difference there was. My primary interest would be to capture in such a way that I could digitally zoom quite significantly into the image if I needed to in post. This would likely be in 4K60 Prores, which I would be treating kind of like a 2x zoom for 1080 or even a 4x zoom which if IQ was good should be passable for the occasional shot. Of course, I'm shooting infrequent videos that I hope will form the history of my family, rather than daily/weekly videos with a half-life of only a few days!

I'm not sure what media that vloggers would end up using. Options appear to be: SD cards - depending on what data rate is required (4K60 RAW would be huge!) the SD card might be quite costly! Cfast cards - might be cheaper than really fast SD cards? USB-C HDD - depending on the features and sizes these might also be in the running for cheapest media - would also add some bulk to the rig of course. I don't think you can assume that SD cards are cheapest option without doing further analysis, and the answer might depend on resolution / frame rates / codec choice. Vloggers might also own CFast cards already.. I do for my XC10, and any 5DIII or 1DX users will also have them. hang on, the 5D might be Compact-Flash? maybe strike the 5D..

I never said the image would be the same,I said it would be indistinguishable, which would be easily achievable by someone who knows their stuff in post. This is assuming that the camera is used for deeper depth-of-field and well lit situations. I provided a link to the Hurlblog confirming that a GoPro was used in a feature film. If a GoPro can be made acceptable in a feature film then I think you're crazy to say that two cameras by the same manufacturer shooting in controlled conditions with the same colour profile can't be made to look indistinguishable from each other by a skilled colourist. Just because an XC10 isn't a good size for a head-mount doesn't mean it's not sensible for any other application where size and disposability (ie cost) matter. Vehicle mounts and many other applications where camera weight and potential damage exist on set. Do you think that someone shooting on a C300 would choose a to mount a GoPro or C300 to a car instead of an XC10? Are you saying that no-one within Canon has ever considered that this might be a side-benefit? Your life must be amazing to know what dozens of people are thinking! I mentioned that it's a part of the picture, not the main goal. My original point was that there are uses for this camera, as consumers we wouldn't know it was being used, there is evidence that it is being used, and therefore this forum (and the wider internet) is completely useless at predicting or evaluating this camera. You still haven't shown any evidence or argument refusing my assertion.