KnightsFan

I recently did a backpacking trip and brought an S5. The same sensor and same image quality in a smaller, lighter package would have been nice. I'm glad to see Panasonic making a small FF camera. Hopefully their next generation will have an EVF, more like the Sony A7C series I suppose. Actually, though, I'd be even more interested in some really small lenses for L mount. Their 26mm f8 is way too slow, but hey at least they're making a start.

My rule of thumb is that if I use an item on 5 or more shoots, buying (and reselling at the end) is cheaper than renting. That's probably fairly conservative too: I usually buy used, so when I sell I get 60-80% of the cost back. I've even sold cameras at a profit after 1-2 years.

Why did it triple post?

Oh sweet, a double post

Oh, maybe I misunderstood "big old lights" to mean "big, old lights." High wattage LEDs from those companies are all fairly recent--even within the realm of LED lights themselves being fairly recent. Seems to me that quality LEDs have only become available at reasonable prices within the last 5 years or so.

Everyone posting here might know this, but just for inexperienced readers' sake, I'll point out that the light output per watt of different light types is very different. An LED is about twice the lumens/watt of an HMI, so a 5k HMI is not equivalent output to a 5k LED. Strictly in terms of bang for buck, tungsten might be the mot affordable. You can get used tungsten fixtures and replacement lamps for nothing compared to LEDs. Of course you'll be dealing with uncomfortable heat output, dangerous surface temperatures, and insane power draws. For those reasons, I opt for LEDs these days, despite the price. Right now I use an Amaran 100D and 200D and I'm happy with them for their price. The important thing other than light quality is to use a standard mount (such as Bowen) for shared modifiers. Are you sure they were LED and not HMI? I don't think we've had quality LED lights that powerful for very many years so I'd be curious which old units they were. I could be wrong though.

Post. I trust my calibrated monitor in a controlled room better than the one on set. So what I do with any new camera is I do a bunch of tests to find a setting that I like, then I shoot everything in that setting and adjust in post as needed. That way I am very familiar with what I can or can't do with that setting. I will often do tests to create specific color node graphs ahead of time, designed to be applied in post. But on the shoot I want everything to be familiar, even when I know based on my tests what it will transform into. That's not to say I'm good at cinematography. But I do think I'm good at not wasting people's time. I test everything ahead of time by myself or with the people leading the project, then we maximize set time for the actors and crew. No fiddling with settings while people are waiting around.

What I like about recent Canon C line is that the skin often has a bit more separation from other colors. I don't know that I prefer red/magenta, but it's not nice if skin gets muddled with everything else. I wouldn't say all Canon, because I was honestly never a fan of the C100's image for the few shoots I used it on. I don't know that I especially like color on the Panasonic S-series as SOOC it tends to exaggerate yellows. It's a great camera and does what I need at an unbeatable price though.

Right, but they are not the same as shooting log and then using Resolve color management as a 1-step modification. On my S5, shooting Vlog and then using color management > shooting standard profile. Or, if you mean a baked in user-specified LUT, that adds another dimension again. I know, I meant for the discussion. Otherwise... Alexa 35 is always the answer 🙂 These are hard questions because almost no test footage on the internet is SOOC, I haven't used every camera, and also of course there are many different film stocks so it really depends what you consider a film look. I'll also assume price new so the C70 is >$4k etc. But given my limited knowledge, and if the only consideration is color with zero post manipulation, for a generic project, my only answer is the Samsung NX1. Absolutely blows everything else I've used out of the water! However, I would never use NX as its a dead system with no active EF adapters. And there is no log profile. So my personal choice in that scenario would probably be a Panasonic S5IIx. But a good portion of my reasoning is based on Vlog, its pixel shift photo mode, and no strange crop factors and other limitations like some others. So not strictly color. This introduces another caveat in addition to the ones above, which is that color is the last consideration for a run and gun doc. My choice is whichever camera has the best AF, IS, sensitivity, audio, and reliability. So while the NX1 color is great, it's absolutely my last pick for the purpose. Overall, I would pick a C200 for the $4k budget, and C500mkII for $10k. They have great color and also fit the other criteria. Ergonomics play much less of a role here than for doc, but of course the big consideration is what the production looks like and what our goal is. Are we shooting natural light? Studio lights? Indoor with a couple 100-200W LEDs? What lenses? Since I can take my time, I'm absolutely shooting log and doing color work in post. So I wouldn't even consider the SOOC question for this scenario 🙂 For $5k I'm probably using a Z Cam F6. The ergonomics, sensitivity, and wireless control are huge, and the color is fine. For $10k the C500mkII looks pretty good. My friend just got a pair and loves them, but I haven't tried it personally.

Yeah I heard the original question, and I think that while the posts diving into complex grading are fascinating and useful to those of us who do post, I know that getting good color SOOC is a separate question. One big point about your question is that it doesn't break down by manufacturer. Not all REDs look the same, not all Sonys look the same, etc. I think the Sony FX6 looks fine, but I dislike the FS7. Also, most cameras have different profiles. Sometimes, there is greater difference between profiles on the same camera, than between normal/natural/standard/default/whatever profiles on many different cameras. And even within a profile, you'll have totally different results based on how many controls you leave on auto (such as WB) and your lens. SOOC and minimal grading are completely different. SOOC excludes log profiles, for one thing. There is budget as well. Best SOOC ever? Alexa 35, probably. Under $10k? C500mkII gets my vote. Under $2k? Nikon Z6 is solid. Are you including lenses in your budget? I like the color out of my Canon L 24-105 better than that of my Canon 50 1.8 (tested on Sony A7rII). Though I have also used terrible lenses for specific scenes, specifically to make them less appealing. If you want a specific answer or even a specific discussion, ask a more specific question because your original question is extremely open ended--which is fine to start with! But it's probably more useful and interesting to narrow the parameters a bit.

...with a lot of makeup, lighting, and color correction. Definitely true, which is why I also said that I don't believe any mainstream brand is objectively better than others. Most of the people posting here have said that in one way or another.

I see your point @SRV1981about wanting good SOOC color and not wanting detailed info about post color correction. But kye's primary point that color is not about the camera is correct. Makeup changes people's skintones to make them more pleasing, both in real life and on camera. Makeup will do more for your image than camera brand. A simple layer of anti-sweat makeup (I don't know the proper name, but our makeup person used it on some shoots) doesn't change hue, but reduces specular highlights, and immediately makes skin look better*. It's an effect which is impossible SOOC from any brand without makeup. (*And when I say "better" that's content-dependent. If you want a shiny, sweaty face in a horror movie that's of course a separate style of makeup) If you really want info on SOOC color from different cameras, it might help to describe exactly what you are looking for, perhaps using existing movies as examples. Because all modern cameras are good in their own way, so whether you like the creative options from Panasonic vs Canon is all about your creative intent. If you want general, all purpose good color, then I don't believe there is any mainstream brand that is better than others at this time.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/04/15/deity-releases-dxtx-plug-in-transmitter-that-records-32-bit-float-and-transmits-simultaneously/ On paper this is exactly what I want. 32 bit float in a single channel plug on recorder, with batteries that can be replaced on set. And it integrates with their TC system! I've definitely grumbled about closed TC systems, but at least this one connects to everything without extra boxes. Unlike UltraSync blue requiring a separate box just to output LTC. I'll wait for real world reviews and audio samples, but the DXTX looks like it will vastly simplify a boom setup for me. The one design choice that seems pretty odd is that there is no headphone output. Looks like the only way to monitor this thing is with a THEOS receiver, which would be unfortunate. It would be nice if it were a standalone field recorder that you could use with just a mic and no other gear, or if it could be mounted on a mirrorless camera as the XLR adapter. Though in fairness, neither of those are the primary use case that I am excited to apply it towards.

More than $1k if you buy used. I saw one for <2k and almost got it, but that was when I was still waiting to see what BM would announce. I actually prefer the non-pro even for the same price because NP batteries are better for me. I use the app for monitoring so I don't want the monitor and don't need SDI. BNC timecode and more F buttons would be nice, though. IIRC F6 low jello is a crop mode, right? On the M4 it was a separate full sensor readout with considerably more noise. I rarely used it because it hurt the image too much--that MFT sensor definitely had no DR or noise to spare.

I've never used AF. Most shoots there are 2 people on camera, so someone pulls focus with a wireless unit. And I can pull focus for myself if not. Any log format that is supported by Resolve's color is ideal. I haven't used everything out there so I'm not going to try to give brand generalizations. Honestly the NX1 was the camera that gave me the best results SOOC, but I can't recommend a discontinued series from 10 years ago. The S5 works really well for me now. The XT3 was great, but if I recall correctly there were issues with FLog in Resolve for a while, so I almost always used HLG and was happy with it. I haven't shot with any modern blackmagic cameras, but I from what I see in other people's footage, they have the best color with their end-to-end color management. Again, that's not personal experience. If you need to get good Rec709 color SOOC I'm not the best reference, as everything I've ever shot has had time for coloring. Another factor that maybe I should state explicitly is that Resolve is the only color software that I like. Assuming you're using a decently nice camera with color management, good software will speed up the color process more than the difference between Sony FX6 and Canon C70.

Yes, 10 bit log is extremely flexible, so you can get similar color from most modern cameras. I say modern because sensors are better now than they used to be. My one extra note is that I find that the most important thing is to nail your white balance. Many cameras that I have used look way better if you manually set them to a white balance setting, rather than balance to a card. My Panasonic S5 in particular looks terrible balanced to a card. So I always shoot 5600K and correct it later. If you do correct it in post, it's best to use color management and do the corrections in linear gamma. If I recall, my old NX1 actually looked great balanced to a the same white card. So it definitely varies by camera. I love Fuji's color. I'm not overjoyed by Panasonic's SOOC Rec709 (but am happy with VLog when I have at least 2 minutes to color it). But in a broad sense and with possible exceptions, I am happy with any camera made after 2018 that cost more than $2k at launch. I really disliked older Sonys and Panasonics, but that is no longer true. Speaking specifically about color, being able to use Resolve color management is huge. It is faster and better than using LUTs to move between color spaces. Other than that, the only real consideration is the time/quality ratio. How fast can I get to the image I want, or, on the other end, how fast can I get to an image that can be turned in by the deadline. Like you mentioned in your first sentence, images can be made similar, but the question is how quickly. Speaking about the entire system, compatibility is my #1 concern. Lenses, batteries, audio, rigs--these all have to work together. I've put a lot of effort into things like "put a right angle XLR on the bottom of a boom pole so that it can be set down without damaging the cable." All my lenses are EF. All of them have 77mm filter threads. That sort of thing matters a lot. Typically, I will do plenty of tests ahead of time. I'll build color nodes in Resolve before the project begins, so I know what settings to use on set, and roughly what I'll do in post. If you have that kind of preparation, the camera used does not matter as much. I think 10 years ago, Canon reigned. The 5D3 was much better than Panasonics and Sonys back then. Nowadays I don't think it holds anymore. But that's all subjective.

My thoughts exactly. Actually, all I want is a Z Cam E2-F6 with faster readout, and if I'm really making wishes then I want Resolve to include Zlog2 color management. Other than that, the F6 is my perfect camera, because it sort of has what you describe: a tiny menu screen, builtin low latency USB/Wifi monitoring, and plenty of 1/4-20's.

It's overkill for a menu navigation screen. 1500 nit, 4", 1080p display--it's got to be drawing like 15 watts. It's probably a higher quality/more expensive panel than most budget monitors out there, and it's poor placement for anything other than checking settings. I'm not saying it's a poisonous design choice, but it is not a good one. It would be cool, for example, if they had interchangeable side panels on both left and right, and some kind of connector so that either of the side panels had the screen + buttons. Then you could choose which side, and maybe later they could make a side panel with a foldout screen. The lower cost option is to have a kit with no screen at all, for people using their own monitor. Just two metal side panels. My guess is they'd start with the budget end, so a 2 or 3 channel recorder. Blackmagic is uniquely positioned as they own the camera, file format, video/audio software, and hardware. They could design something modular that works both standalone, or mounted on a camera, or in their massive lineup of live production hardware.

I'm shopping for a cinema camera at the moment, so here are my thoughts on the Pyxis. Tl;dr it doesn't quite fit my needs, so my main hope is that it drives used prices on other cameras down. Price No objection there! It's very reasonable Image Rolling shutter speed is a let down. Otherwise, image is fantastic, assuming it is in fact identical to their previous FF camera as Petty said. Blackmagic has some of the best color out there, particularly considering how it carries through to Resolve. DR and noise are fine. Recording Formats Disappointing. I'd like a 10 bit consumer codec. ProRes would be welcome too. But, if you're stuck with one format, BRAW is a good one. It's disappointing but not a deal breaker. Body Design +1 for L mount. It'll be easy to add an adapter with NDs. All my lenses are EF, so really I just want to be able to get them on, ideally with NDs. Ports and connectivity look decent. No real complaints. A few years ago, lack of HDMI would be a con because it limited you to pro monitors, but there are lots of affordable SDI monitors now. The interchangeable side panel is really cool. I could even 3D print my own panel to hold my exact gear (wireless TC, mic receiver, etc). I love how many threaded holes are on the top and bottom. Other than that, ergonomics are... okay. I dislike the side screen. It's useless without flipping out, and blocks left side rigging. It's better than blocking rear rigging, but I do prefer putting handles on both left and right for handheld. If you're going to have a large, fixed screen, maybe Red had the right idea putting it on the top. Where Can BM Go? One thing I can't live without anymore is wireless video monitoring. I know you can add a 3rd party product, but that's extra weight, batteries, latency, wires... I really hoped BM would do something similar this time, since they have an iOS app and are moving into wireless streaming devices. All BM had to do was say "high quality wireless monitoring on an app" and I'd have preordered (side screen and everything!) Z Cam simply got it right, and no one competes with them yet. It's time we saw high quality 32 bit audio in cinema cameras. The Zoom F3 has been game changing to me. One con to 32 bit audio is varying support in file formats and software. However, Blackmagic controls both the BRAW format and Resolve software so that wouldn't be an issue. Even a single 32 bit XLR would instantly make the camera that much easier to use on solo doc projects. My pipe dream was for Blackmagic to integrate a wireless receiver into their camera. I'd love to run a camera body and a couple transmitters, and have synced, distortion-free audio without any extra gain knobs, cables, boxes, or batteries. BM hasn't ventured into audio... yet. It's got to happen at some point, right? Now they have the whole Fairlight system. Obviously, a faster sensor readout.

Agreed. It's probably feasible to swap mounts between Pyxis models, but voids the warranty. BM probably manufactures the models exactly the same, with just that part different. Conceivably, they have some annoying firmware difference to prevent electronics from working, but that would be so difficult for them to manage for FW updates.

Yeah I mean obviously they aren't manufacturing their own drives in house. I just can't tell if they are saying, "buy M.2 drives and put them in our caddy" or if they are encouraging (or worse, enforcing) branded drives. There are 4 drives per caddy, but I'm not sure whether it's a RAID array or another redundancy. They mentioned the 4x4 lanes make 16... so I don't know if that implies that at max data rates it needs to stripe data to keep up. I guess best case the reason they decided to make a caddy is that it would be hazardous to change M.2's on a set. But it does raise my suspicions as soon as someone makes a branded connector for a generic part.

Wow, what a set of releases! The Resolve 19 presentation was pretty amazing. The audio panning tool in particular looked pretty sweet. Overall, I find the Fairlight tab to be rather unusable. Compared to Reaper, it's much harder to see large projects particularly compared to Reaper's amazing keyframe visualization and track parenting. So I'm probably going to stick with Reaper for large audio projects. And then on the visual side, a whole slew of AI based tools that look like a lot of fun. Some of the tracking tools looked pretty great, as do the new color plugins. Ursa Cine looks like a pretty sweet camera. I like the USB EVF solving both power and data at once, without proprietary connectors. I wish/hope that there can be an open standard for it, so other manufacturers can make interchangeable EVFs in that system. I can't say I'm that enthusiastic about the data rates required for 12k, but I guess it's the future. The footage looks good in any case. I'm glad they switched back to a larger, 5" 1080p screen, up from the rather smaller and lower res one on the UMP models. The screen on the old Ursa Mini 4K was nice to use. I'm a little confused on the media drives. I can't tell if they are off the shelf, user-replaceable M.2 cards (that's how it looks) or something more proprietary (which is what Grant Petty implied verbally). I'm intrigued by the USB ports along the right side, for "3rd party accessories". The Pyxis looks alright. I'm a little disappointed that they kept the 6k sensor from the previous camera, but it's what I expected. Keeping the accessory ecosystem from the Ursa Cine is great. I love the interchangeable side panel. For $3k, I don't think I would buy it over the Z Cam F6, with the main points being higher frame rate, H.265 options, interchangeable lens mount with eND option, and builtin wireless monitoring. I think the points in BM's favor are the screen, physical buttons, XLR connector, color, SDI, and timecode. Of those, color is the only one that I really care about and I don't know if it's that much better to justify the other cons.

S5 is definitely "better" image quality than GH5 imo, and that certainly factors into my choices, but technology is at a point where pretty much everything looks pretty good. So if all my lenses were MFT, or if GH5 had some other feature that I really needed, I'd be happy with GH5 as well. Better photographers than I might have a more nuanced look at photo ergonomics, but to me all hybrids are roughly the same amount of pain when rigged for a narrative shoot. For my amateur photography, every camera I touch reminds me that the NX1 was more comfortable 😞 The S5 has a great APS-C crop mode, which will pair nicely with your Sigma 18-35. You're already in the system, no pressure at all!

My opinion is to go for an S5. I got one a few months ago for about $800. That opinion is partially based on having owned and primarily shot on a MFT Z Cam for the past 3(?) years and using APS-C NX1/XT3 for the 5-6 years before that. I primarily shoot scripted narrative projects, and nature photography. The increased dynamic range and noise performance of the S5 over the GH5 is definitely a factor for me. Actually, for $800, I can't recommend the S5 enough, if you don't need AF. Absolutely wonderful camera for me. However, my choice of camera is primarily lenses, while you specifically said lenses are not a factor. I have many beautiful vintage photo lenses, and in general I've had an easier time finding modern, high quality FF lenses than APS-C or MFT lenses. It's hard to find a small sensor combo that matches the price/performance of (used) Sigma Art, Canon L, or Zeiss Milvus--keeping in mind that, for my use, autofocus is never in play. (The 18-35 is a standout lens, a notable exception to the generalization I just made) If you are set on real cinema lenses, a smaller sensor might be better. There are plenty of Super 35 options to choose from, and honestly the budget FF lenses (Meike, DZOFilm, etc) are optically rather lackluster in my opinion. If my plans this year go through and I shoot a lot more narrative content, I might look for a Super 35 cinema camera, because at that point we would rent high quality cinema lenses, and there are a lot of those available for Super 35. I don't know much about the S1, but the reason I got an S5 is that it weighs a lot less than the S1. It would be less fun to take an S1 on a backpacking trip.

Awesome! Have fun and good luck! I am also making a short film tomorrow. Definitely looking forward to hearing about how well your shoot went!