JimJones

Yup - agree with all this. A LOT of wildlife docs were shot on B4/F23

Did I say 11.5-160mm ? Oops meant to say 10.6-180mm Canon S16 in PL. That lens has some serious punch in on the long end. The thought of some wildlife action at 220 fps with this lens gets me going. Let us hope this tech does trickle down to a smaller body - even less weight to hump into the bush. The reality is given we are half way through July and the rains start here end of October / early November there is little chance of having time to get a set up like the U12K going this year. Maybe by next NAB we will see a smaller version of this camera? I certainly agree this tech in a smaller body is desirable, but wonder if its doable given the heat it may generate?

You get it. I have the Canon 11.5-165mm in S16 which is a 15x multiplier. The same lens in 35mm would be a massive chunk of glass that weighs a ton. S16 is not right every time by any stretch. But those S16 PL cine lenses are nice!

Its about more then just resolution. Look at the MTF response at the lp/mm. How much contrast is there at any given level. I surely dont want a 1960's 16mm format lens (unless I want that "look"). But a 90's or early 2000's S16 lens from Angenieux, Zeiss or Cooke (SK4's - YES YES PLEASE) is on the way to S16 nirvana. Now lets shoot these lenses all over again at 220 fps ! Thats what the U12K brings to the table, not to mention in "glorious true RGB"...which I definitely agree with. I am not sure how useful the 6K will be in terms of reproducing that rez, but it allows down sampling and reframing to some extent.

***YOU MUST GO TO THE URL's below DIRECTLY - not via a Google search*** Great read here on S16. http://cinematechnic.com/resources/optics_for_super-16/ As Jorge says, Optimum image quality in the S16 format requires PRECISE CALIBRATION of both the cameras flange focal distance and the lens back focus. I have both the Angenieux 11.5 -138MM HR T2.3 Super 16 and the Angenieux 10-120MM T2.0 referenced here ; http://cinematechnic.com/super-16mm/angenieux_115-138hr/ Jorge goes on to say that the 11.5-138mm is a very sharp lens with resolution in the area of 200 lines per milimeter, which he thinks out performs many prime lenses, further noting, especially at the edges of the frame. Thats quite something I think...at least to me and I get it, not to many of you. With all of the above and given I own these lenses, yes getting to shoot them at 6K@120 fps is an enticing concept. How many of those 6K pixels are actually usable remains to be seen, but starting with the best S16 glass ever made is a step in the right direction. Yes this U12K cam is exciting.

But no 220 fps on the pocket 4K. Even if I have a tired old non serviced ill shimmed S16 lens mounted, I still get reframing room and 220 fps -IF I need it. Thats the thing ...its nice to have the choices..IF I need them. When I need those choices I need them, when I dont, I dont think twice about it. This has been a great discussion and at least has people talking about S16 on this cam which I had not seen anywhere till this. Good Stuff !

Actually S16 glass often resolved more line pairs then S35 glass of the era did. It had too because the S16 frame was so much smaller. Not saying all S16 lenses did this....but some did and those are the ones highly coveted. Having a well serviced S16 lens that is shimmed properly is half the battle.

If you're an S16 aficionado then the new BM cam is great news. Its not going to change the world of course...who implied that? But it does change the S16 shooting world if thats your thing. If not, thats OK. But if you are into S16 glass this cam is great news. Its the same size as the broadcast ursa. As pointed out a few posts ago there has been uptake of that body for S16. Why? Because its the only way to get genuine 4K in S16 format. I think its around the $4000 USD mark iirc. Whats nice about that body is it allows one to use B4 broadcast lenses - and some still do use B4. In fact there are some VERY nice HD B4 lenses out there - but super expensive. Its about the right tool for the job. B4 broadcast lenses have a big focal length range. Certainly you dont want the old tired SD B4 lenses, but there are some real gems in the B4 range. Bring on the new era - which it seems we are entering with the new sensor. The new 12K Ursa. Same size as the Broadcast Ursa. What does it give us over the older Broadcast Ursa? 4K @ 220 fps ! 6K @ 120 fps ! Plus a new sensor tech that we dont know a lot about yet. That sensor may prove to be a new standard or it may not...we just dont know yet. But 220/120 fps options are HUGE if you want to use S16. Now we can go as high as 6K. Only the best S16 glass will do for this though. But if you have those lenses it looks like there are good shooting times ahead. If you are not an S16 guy then what I have said here hardly impacts you at all. None of the implications of this cam to S16 would excite you at all. Why would it? But if you ARE into S16 then this cam is hotter then ...well lets leave it at its hot. The other thing about this cam is its 2 cams in one for me. I have a set of Mamiya 645 glass converted to PL by Duclos. I have the extremely rare Mamiya 500mm f4.5 APO and the Mamiya 200mm f2.8 APO also converted to PL by Duclos. The 300mm Mamiya is still in the workshop being converted to PL. With this cam I can use both sets of lenses on the same body - my S16 glass that I love and my full frame 645 glass with lots of choices in focal lengths from my set. All on the same body with the same sensor with a res from 12K to 4K at my chosing. This is pretty dammed revolutionary! So yeah if that makes me enthusiastic then I am enthusiastic about the cam. I dont see 10K as expensive for what this cam offers. I still love the 1080p footage from the BMPCC as well. Choose the tool from your box for the job at hand.

So you have no use for 120 6K or 220 fps 4K ? OK then....... You have no need of S16 with a base ISO of 800 ?... OK then...... We shall have to see what this new sensor tech brings but here,s hoping we can get something close to the F35 look. You wanna talk about mojo....the F35 is the king of the hill on that one. But that may be more a CCD thing which both the F35 and the Digital Bolex had. I agree - the CCD look was lovely. Time will tell us what this sensor delivers. At this stage its sounding very positive. Hmmm 10K is too expensive in your world?... OK then.

IDK....... It may not work for YOU but it may be just the ticket for others. I can see this being a great tool for wildlife doco's using S16 lenses. On a tripod in a hide sitting and waiting for days at a time for THE shot. I have a very nice selection of S16 glass in PL, ......Angénieux , Canon. Some of the S16 lenses have impressive reach for thier size - S16 lenses really help when you have to hump all that gear into the bush. 6K @120 fps down scaled to 4K. Whats not to love? A long S16 lens shot at 6K - this allows for re-framing and punching in with a 4K delivery - if I need that. I f I dont I can just down scale to 4K. If I need 220 fps I just shoot at 4K. I see this camera as an exciting enabler. 4/6K from an RGB digital sensor seems to give S16 glass a new lease on life. And those frame rates...where exactly do you get that on S16 other then here ??? OK so you have no use case.......good for you. But to exhibit such a small mind to say this is just no good for S16....hmmmm, ok then fella...if you say so. You keep believing that while the rest of us explore what we can do with our high end S16 glass and 220 fps @4K. A game changer I would say. A TRUE game changer. I can see the price of S16 glass going up because of this, much like the effect the BMPCC had on S16 glass some years ago. Before the BMPCC, S16 glass could be had for little. Not now. Looks like history may repeat here. Its going to be interesting to see how this pans out.

Surprised no one is talking about what the 12K BM cam means to S16 lenses. 6K S16 on a digital RGB sensor seems like a HUGE thing to me. The frame rates on the S16 crop are icing on the cake. There are a fair few S16 enthusiasts out there with a good selection of S16 PL mount lenses. Seems like this camera could be a game changer for them. Thoughts?

Thanks for your thoughts Rawshooter.

Honest question. I have a choice of this cam, the Zcam E2, the S1H or the BMPCC 4k/6K. Use is underwater mainly but above water for B roll etc as well. The biggest single issue for me is selecting a camera that has an underwater housing available for it because all of these cameras are good. All the mentioned cams do have a housing for them - however the FP has what I consider the slickest housing for it. But the others also have good housings for them as well, just not as good as the fp IN MY VIEW. My perceived needs; RAW is a priority because of WB issues underwater, 12 bit is important for tonality (banding of water hues at low bitrate). Good sensitivity allows creative freedom. I am asking this here on this thread because I feel the FP is the way to go but underwater shooters bag the FP. I am hearing that they feel the S1H is a better cam...is it? I think a lot of it is a Ford Vs Chevy thing.......I prefer Chev, which way do you roll? So how does one cut through all the chaff and pick a cam that is as good as can be at this point in time (because 2 years from now all these cams will be outdated). The underwater housings cost more then the cameras themselves and lock one into that cam until you drop a boatload of cash on a new housing for the next generation of cam.....its an old game for young players.

If you haven't seen this one, it's worth your time. Really.

OK thanks. I must be confused then. Done so much reading these last few days on the fp that my head is spinning. I am sure someone somewhere said they could use S16 on the fp but as you say it doesn't quite work out, so........ How would Mamiya 645 lenses converted to hard PL mounts go on the fp? What sort of crop factor would it be? 645 is twice the size of the full frame fp or close enough anyway.