PaulUsher

The difference between IPB and ALL-I on the R is noticeable. IPB has more motion artefacts and loss of detail

Both cameras have movie crop mode to support APSC glass but the pixel counts don’t suggest a 1:1 cutout will fit APSC circle so there may be some kind of scaling/binning/skipping instead - unlikely that you’ll be able to enjoy 1:1 readout with your Sigma 18-35. We’ll see A benefit of the R5/6 is their ability to record 10 bit internally. If I need a Ninja to get useful files off it I may as well stick with R+Ninja+ speedbooster Comparing it to the R6, the R Classic has ALL-I, true 24p, (vs IPB 23.98p), 4K 1:1 readout for APSC, or 4K FF with Metabones (plus the speed booster’s benefits), 28ms rolling shutter vs 31ms of 1DXIII sensor, mini HDMI (not R6’s micro), lighter for a gimbal, 30 megapixel stills vs 20mp, £1000 cheaper (used) and it doesn’t overheat. Same colour science, same log. But it lacks 60p in 4K, the improved IBIS, and the improved autofocus of the R6. I don’t use slomo so I’m really not sure whether it’s worth the upgrade for me as the R’s DIS works well and the autofocus is already blazing. It’s the IBIS I’m interested in: 8 stops is gimbal-like, and destroys any rolling shutter artefacts. Need to see more footage....

Yeah the R6 has always seemed the more likely purchase for me - I want to love it, especially from what we’ve seen of the IBIS, but where do you guys stand on the lack of ALL-I? In my 18 months with the R, I found the IPB was noticeably worse than the ALL-I. So for me this may not be an upgrade without compromise, especially if the rolling shutter is not improved. I’m not sure it’s the end of the story until we get to see real world footage.

ALL-I is sampling 3 x the frames of IPB, so IPB can be a third of the size and get away with it, at least in terms of compression. But yeah this table shows the R6 is a bit of a mixed bag... H265 is twice as efficient as H264 so only needs half the bit rate. The R6’s 45mbps for 23.98p FHD, for example, would need 90mbps in H264. For comparison the R Classic also shoots 24p FHD in H264 at a rate of 90mbps, but in ALL-I. As ALL-I is sampling 3 x the frames of IPB this would mean the R6 is 3 x less compressed than the R, if both were capturing 8 bit colour info, BUT the R6 is processing 10 bit, ie more data. Lack of ALL-I is a shame. IPB is why the R6 does not have the true 24p of the R Classic and R5 and is only offering 23.98p - it’s just not capturing 24 true frames. I see true 24p and ALL-I being more desirable for filmmakers especially as ALL-I has fewer motion artefacts.

Yeah this whole thing is a marketing ploy. Anyone who has worked in marketing will recognise this is simply a classic loss leader -type strategy, where the R5 draws consumers into Canon and interests them in the ‘cutting edge’ RF line. In sales, there’s this thing called the alternative close - where you give the customer a choice of two (instead of ‘buy or not buy‘ it’s ‘buy this or buy that’). You always pitch the product you WANT to sell after you’ve presented the loss leader. It’s a very effective strategy and it’s working wonders for Canon: ‘Yeah that R5 looks neat but it’s expensive and I don’t need 8K, so I’ll get the R6 instead...’

Thanks for posting the data rates, which don't look particularly impressive compared to the R Classic. - not to mention the loss of ALL-I. R6 looks like a real improvement in other areas though, namely low light, promising IBIS and improved AF. On closer inspection I see no true 24p option in the menus (23.98 only?) which is not a biggie, but it irks me. Like the unnecessary removal of c-log in 8-bit, this suggests there's still some crippling going on - so I'm doubtful if they'll give us auto exposure in c-log this time. More worrisome: there's the 'overheating control' option, which is ominous... If the rolling shutter proves as bad as the 1DXIII then I question whether I'm just better off getting the metabones for my R+NinjaV combo (I dont shoot slomo) Will wait to see footage before deciding.

https://www.canonwatch.com/these-are-the-canon-eos-r6-specifications-20mp-it-is/ posted 10 mins ago via Nokishita (ALL-I in time lapse only must be a typo...?)

thanks. I wonder if RAW be greyed out in 4K...

Great to know the i-9 MBP can handle H265! (Maybe we should be drawing up a list?) Thanks Chris, and yeah, if like you I was looking to offload other cameras and consolidate an RF kit (and shoot any kind of RAW) then I'd probably be up for taking the plunge now too, but for my mileage (EOS R + Ninja + older iMac - plus I largely use crop lenses 18-35 / 50-100 so FF is not an absolute must) I think it might be best for me to wait a bit - I might just let you fellas report on any R5 teething problems and suggest the best edit set up before I bite the bullet In return I can offer 18-months worth of experience on how best to limit Canon's rolling shutter artefacts heheh - let's pray the R5/6 can at least improve on that (they should, with the addition of IBIS at least counteracting some jitter-induced jello...) - but as the jury's still out on that then it's another reason I might prefer to wait and see... Excited for the announcement though!

Thanks man. Yeah if it ain't broke dont fix it... I think I'm gonna put my GAS in check and watch the R5/6 release and testing phase at a safe distance, taking notes from the sidelines.

Interesting that the R6 is front and centre. Glad to see the body is modelled like the R5 and not the squished RP. Maybe it's not so low end after all.

I fear you’re probably right. I quizzed Carlos Quintero about his H.265 workflow and he said only his new Mac Pro could handle it without transcoding. This is a bummer because I can’t afford to upgrade our cameras AND our macs. The jury is still out but I’m pretty sure we’ll be upgrading to the R5 and/or R6, however we’re going to wait to see if NLE updates will be able to really handle these new cameras first. We’re in no rush, and we shoot with Ninja Vs anyway for monitoring and ProRes, but not being able to enjoy the new cameras to their fullest extent, and record internally when we want to, kind of makes a mockery of upgrading (for our needs at least)... Makes me wonder whether we may as well stick with the R Classic + Ninja for the next 6-12 months, upgrade the Macs first, then pick up the R5 when the prices drop a little... But for those with a bigger budget, upgrading everything now could be a sound investment to cover the next five years of production, maybe longer. Would we ever need anything more?

Yikes. Just when it feels like the battle is won, there’s another one... We may finally get super cameras (look at the three on that list!) yet we’ll still need external recorders / transcoding? Even H.265 seems too much for NLEs right now. Let’s hope the software catches up fast!

@Andrew Reid I’ve had to find workarounds for the very similar rolling shutter on the EOS R over the last 18 months. Aside from accepting defeat and using some kind of rig (I built a chest pod) a very effective hack for Canon’s brand of RS jello is to try a lens with solid image stabilisation that really sticks for static shots but drifts smoothly for pans (without stutter and hiccups). Have you still got your old Tamron 24-70 VC? It really hammers the jello right back even with 50mm+ focal lengths (but you’re stuck with skew with fast pans) - in my testing it’s still the most effective lens for this. It’s not ideal - the Canon RS is inexcusable, especially at the price you’re paying - but if it means you can enjoy the positives of the camera then it’s definitely worth giving a go. (side note: the IS on the RF glass destroys rolling shutter warp for anyone interested, though that’s not going to help you with the 1D...) Also I recommend avoiding Canon’s DIS in modes that are prone to rolling shutter as that makes it worse in my experience (warping artefacts especially in the tilt axis). How is the RS in FHD modes? Can you report if there any 1080 modes that downscale from UHD - that’s my thing (I’m so 2012...) Looking forward to seeing your footage from the 1DXIII.

Exactly right. RS in crop mode is the same for 1080 as 4K - in fact there’s virtually no distinguishing the images. The FF is a different story, that typical mush you describe. A found very good test charts online here that illustrate the effects of Canon’s two traditional sampling methods in the R - this is how it’s always been for their stills bodies. Have they developed a new method for the R Pro bodies? Or will it be the same old story? Here are those charts:

Love it! Did you make it And if the R5 and R6 DO turn out to Crippled, we'll be singing this...

Thanks for engaging bro. I've read on here somewhere that the R's crop mode (both the 4K and 1080 flavours) is clocked at 28ms, same as 1DXIII FF4K30p, where the 5DMKIV is 30ms and the RP is 33ms. But who knows, and anyway it's splitting hairs isn't it? They're all shockers for RS! LOVED my C100 (and C300), but I'm downsizing from the C line - I want something low-profile that I can hide under the table when it isn't stuck to my hand (highly recommend the Spiderpro handstrap for any mirrorless/dslr) and doesn't get me thrown out of places (when I can eventually get back into them...) As for the days of gimped Canon cameras being over, well, we can pray (Amen). @Django & @Super8 - thanks for the support, I'm a long-time reader, finally sticking it in - felt it needed to be said. Hopefully someone searching online will find it useful and make the most of their mpb-acquired R Classic. Who knows, maybe peeps will be giving sage advice in years to come: "you know, if you dont have the budget for an R5/R6/R1/RC, and you're only shooting 1080, the R Classic always had a bit of mojo - they're mad value used if you know their limitations..." - sound familiar? (C100?)

Garbage is an interesting word for this camera. I’m glad I won’t have to read R-bashing for much longer. Before we all move on, and pick up an R Successor, I’d like to put this in the record. I’ve nothing better to do right now, so here’s the whole story of the R from someone who has used it every day since it first dropped 18 months ago. Firstly, fair point on this thread about the DR- on par with the C100 at best, maybe C200 (the non raw output). The crop never bothered me though - close enough to match the S35 cinecams - and there’s always the metabones as a fair fix. My problem with the R, like other R users on this thread, is the rolling shutter in 4K / crop mode (RS is fine in full frame), though I found this practically disappeared when using wider lenses like the Sigma 18-35. It’s there if you chuck it about. So I have to give a damn about camera movement, and I sometimes use a shoulder/chest pod handheld. Forget 50mm and above though yeah unless you’re on a gimbal or using some kind of rig. Flawed camera, it certainly is. The rolling shutter is my major gripe (my other gripe being no 60p in 4K - minor for me but a deal-breaker for many, I get it). This RS, which btw enhances some tilt-access warp in the electronic IS, so it’s a double-whammy, meant countless hours of experimentation and in the end meant building my own chest/shoulder pod for extreme handheld work and longer focal lengths. I’ve destroyed the RS but I wish I hadn’t had to do this, and I don’t always want to have to use this rig (even though it does improve every shoot). Bring on the IBIS. The 4K 60p. 10 bit internal. All hail R5/R6 - so long as there’s improved rolling shutter. Garbage though? In and of itself, and just going by specs, I won’t argue that it was a disappointment, especially for full frame shooters. I agree, it’s a flawed video camera. BUT, when you put the R in context - ie with lenses, next to other cameras -I’d argue it offers formidable value for doc shooters, solo operators and for all the indie filmmakers who want to use a Sigma 18-35 without a focus puller.... Because it’s the only mirrorless cam on the planet to offer perfect autofocus (yes, for me, it works PERFECTLY) with that Sigma 18-35, a lens so good that many cinematographers use its rehoused glass for its true 1.8 transmission, near parfocality, and smooth focusing with almost imperceptible breathing (well, at least on the R...) I may be wrong, but I think the only other cameras on Earth that pair this well with the Sigma 18-35 for autofocussing full 4K readout are the Canon cinecams: C200, C300 mkii, mkiii, C500 mkii... I’d say the R is in pretty good company. When you then add the R’s drop in ND filter (1.5-10 stops), it really gets interesting. I barely remove it when using the Sigma. How many of those cinecams have non-stepping ND (they step two stops, four etc) On the R you just adjust to any stop, wherever you want... all with the roll of a finger. The R also has decent electronic image stabilisation (if you know how to sidestep its limitations) which is missing from some of Canon’s ‘cinema cameras’. I’m aware the R doesn’t have native XLR inputs or pro time code functions etc. I know it’s not a cinema camera (but this didn’t stop me selling my C300 to use the R exclusively). It’s a consumer camera - with an image that punches WELL above its weight. The R’s 4K is a 1:1 readout (which you can also out at 10 bit). Its 1080 is downsampled from the same 4K readout in crop mode. The R5 will not process its 4K the same way. It may be better, if Canon downsample 8K (it might not be better, especially its 1080), otherwise what kind of voodoo will the R5, and its purported 45 megapixel sensor, have to perform to offer better than 1:1 readout to cover the image circle of my Sigma 18-35? I hope Canon does it. Obviously, the R is not going to be any cinematographers first choice to shoot a movie, but for anyone else, especially doc shooters and solo operators, I’m hard pressed to think of a better value canon video camera. Its 4K image rivals the C200, even performs a decent imitation of the 1DC image. And it has a 5Dmkiv built into it. In a low-profile mirrorless body. With an RF lens mount. All this for as little as £1400 used (and falling...) The R was received poorly by all of us who were hoping it was gonna be the R6 and the anger STILL resounds. But the R6 is now coming, and soon the R Classic will be totally written off (if it hasn’t been already). If the next gen R cams can really deliver, I’ll probably trade in my R, and some kid can pick it up used and sacrifice it’s stunning images to the gods of YouTube compression - or maybe create something beautiful. Garbage? I’m afraid you’re probably right - the R will end up as garbage - but I don’t think it deserves to be. Despite how frustrating the camera can be, it’s also been amazing in many ways. Farewell to the garbage that time forgot. Or will the R Classic be resurrected in the RF era, the impending ‘Revolution’ love-in, suddenly touted as the ‘next-best’ option to the R Pros for those shooters that, in these uncertain times, will not be able to afford the insane price tags surely headed our way.

Thanks for the tip Andrew, I’m much more a video shooter... so I’ve barely graduated from the nifty fifty for stills

Absolutely stunning to my eye. When all is said and done, this is what it’s all about: the image. I cannot wait to see some video from this combo.

$4K+ maybe... I’m still not convinced there’s any value in an 8K sensor. For most practical purposes it’s useless and doesn’t bode well for low light performance or the 4K sampling - unless Canon has a new magic sauce that they’re not using in their cinema cameras which they’re willing to use on a mirrorless camera. It’s possible of course, but, more likely, this specs-first approach feels like crowd-pleasing, hoisted over and above what really matters: offering a pleasing image (with no binning/skipping) in files we can actually use. The 4K Canon image is great from the R, as it is from its S35 big brothers, C200, C300 etc. At least with the R you get a 1:1 readout that fits the Sigma 18-35 (which I still use over the excellent full frame RF glass, along with, I might add, the drop in ND filter - which you have to swap out for the RF lenses). The pursuit of the perfect full frame image goes right to the top of the C series line - Canon aren’t going to offer a toll-free shortcut. And remember, the R5 won’t be broadcast approved without monitoring and xlr audio etc so we must dampen those Netflix dreamers - really, they’ve started. This is not a cinema camera replacement. It’s a companion, maybe. Let’s not kid ourselves. The R5 is a specs package, not the perfect camera. It’s purpose is to destroy Canon’s competition by sucking consumers in to the brand. It’s aimed at total fantasists with more credit cards than sense, at misinformed wannabes, and the slack-jawed fanboys who consume the junk food dished out by tech YouTubers. We forced this change of tack on Canon with our whinging and now they’re ready to grab our money. Do you really want to spend an extra grand or two for 8K? Unless you’re a spec glory hunter, or require 8K raw for some very case-specific VFX production work, you’re just better off waiting to compare the image of the R5 with the R6, which could have a more practical pixel count and, we can hope, an excellent 4K Raw image - with the same IBIS, and client-pleasing specs; great for a range of commercial video work and indie filmmaking. Really, what more do most of us need? Friends be careful not to blow your load on something you won’t use just because Canon entered the specs race. It’s good news, and nice to know Canon are at least listening, but it’s still a waiting game, hopefully only until the R6 is on sale. So hold on to your money - at the very least you’ll need it for those RF lenses.

Not sure if we’ll hear that quickly, especially as CP+ has been cancelled What does Granger know, or any of us for that matter It’ll be a real guessing game until official announcement. I’m now questioning whether there will even be a 1:1 4K crop mode from 8K sensor because that would mean a 2X crop. Has me wondering whether the R5 will support APSC sized lenses at all, or whether they’ll leave the EFS compatibility for the lower end R, RP and R6? The R5 could be their only full frame proper- might make sense on the flagship, or would customers feel cheated (is this the gotcha?) There’s only mention of EF support in the presser, not EF-S. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Exactly this. Their advancement into 8K processing is the overkill needed behind the scenes to cover the basics of its 4K output. This together with improvements on the toe-dipping R and Canon’s need to D-Day the competition, they may finally be ready to release the balanced feature set that for them does just enough (holding back the xlr audio and connectivity features of the cinema line) whilst we get all the camera we’ll ever need, at least for the next four years... Proof is in the pudding, of course, and we’ll have to pay through the nose for it, but I’m sure I’ll be relieved to finally get my money’s worth. After all the crippling, compromises and workarounds - across all the manufacturers - of the last four years, paying top dollar for a top product is the one compromise I’ll be happy to make, and I surely won’t be alone in thinking that.

Yeah maybe its 8K sensor will be to the R what the 4K sensor was to the original C300/C100 - it’s there processing internally but won’t output 8K (I mean who needs that anyway??) Actually this could be great news because the images from those cameras have mojo. Remember Larry Thorpe’s ‘secret sauce’ for those cameras was 444 internal processing with no debayering - one output pixel from exactly one RGGB pixel group: the colours were assembled like an oldskool three-chip sensor block… two megapixels of red, two megapixels of blue and four megapixels of green (carried the luminance info). With an 8K sensor Canon could simply apply the same old method on the R5, where each primary colour sampled off the sensor would be native 3840×2160, and each colour value alone would be equal to the final output resolution. Just hope the readout is fast enough on the R5. If there’s rolling shutter, I swear...

Magical footage. I always loved hearing that audiences freaked out as the train rolled ‘at’ them (could be one of those apocryphal stories) fun fact: the Lumiere bros famously bitched about the crop and the glitchy autofocus on their speedbooster