zlfan

nano flash may be a good fit for af100, because both are small. yeh, established dp only talk about latest cameras. as you mentioned, there are hidden gems in the old cams.

If so, you are right.

anyone here think dvx100 at 24p is more cinematic than c300 mk 1 at 29.97p using an L 50mm f1.2 at f1.2, or c100 mkii at 59.97 using a ZE 85 f1.4 at f1.4? i doubt so. if so, i think i should shut up on this 24p topic.

i extensively use 650d/700d ml raw crop mode now crop mood 1920x1080p 1x1 24p 16 by 9 14 bit color depth 14 bit lg92 lossless compression for events, news, landscape, street/city scape. since i am in the event, i know the situation, and i watch the footage later, i really don't see the larger than life effects. the ml raw footage itself is amazing for its image quality, especially in the color department. but it is still a small sensor, about 50 mm2 in this mode. on the other hand, 5d3 ml raw in 3.5k mode and in 5.7k mode and in uhd mode, aspect ratio 2.4, 24p, with a large aperture lens at f1.4 to f2, rack focus if you can, then it is much more cinematic. i think large sensor size, lens at f1.4, aspect ratio 2.4, rack focusing, etc, have much stronger effects than 24p itself.

external recorder puts another consideration for sure. my f5 can do 4k xavc 480 up to 30p, nut up to 60p it is xavc 300. for quad sdi out, f5 can do prores 422 hq 4k 60p 1920 mbps to inferno. so i always do 60p with inferno, 24p internal. so yeh, external recorder affects frame rate, for me.

thx. mine is an a version, can do 60p. sdi out 8 bit wrapped in 10 bit, according to berry green. af100 olpf is optimized for low alias and moire, so low res as a cause. but you are right, it has its mojo. probably using it for beauty shot is to best use it, like wedding, etc.

nice cage.

Anyways, it is fun to have this kind of online debate. No need to be personal. Just have fun debating or watching. LOL.

And we can deduct more, if 23-25p is so similar, there is 3p difference within this range, then another 3p up is 29p, basically 29.97 or 30p, why is 29.97p or 30p is so different from 23-25p, just like two totally different worlds? There are no data supporting this kind of mandatory categorization. As I mentioned earlier, 30p was associated with small sensor eng cameras and was looked down by S35 cinema world. Nowadays, S35 and Vista Vision sensor cameras are so accessible, 30p vs 24p vs 60p on large sensor cameras is just a matter of changing some menu options. The so called 24p aesthetics came from the large s35 sensor film cameras era just cannot hold in the current digital cinema time. It is just like Alexa was hailed as the holy grail of digital cinema. Although F35 may trench Alexa with its ccd striped sensor, the whole cinema world embrace the Alexa as the gold standard. Now, many cameras have dual gain sensors and have similar dr to the first generation of Alexa series, although may not be as good as Alexa 35. For normal scenes, even experienced dps cannot tell which camera is which, when comparing the latest Red and Venice 2 and Alexa. Technology has been developing so fast, many early rules in the last ten years may not hold in the next 10 years. This 24p rule has a longer history, but still may not hold in the future digital world neither.

Elitism has its short comings and so with the populism. Neither is perfect. Both can be abused. Let's use celluloid as an example. Kodak was the number one in film production, followed by Fuji. Kodak invented the digital back, yet could not transit to the digital age, and went bankrupt. Kodak is considered as the elite group of the film age, yet cannot accommodate to the new age due to the incoming new technology platform. Kodak's arrogance based on its leading role in film making caused its blindness to the new digital age. On the other hand, populism may kill the innovation. For example, The Hobbit's DP had to give up his exploration on hfr to please movie critics to improve his movies' ticket box profit. From his stand point, he gave up his higher understanding to lower crowd because the lower crowd has the power to influence the even lower uneducated to not buy the ticket to watch hobbit in theater. Pure artists maintain their own original ideas normally will have poor and broken lives.

Every joke has its meaning. You just did not get it.

iphone 15 pro max now has 1 inch/s16 sensor and can do 4k 60p with great ibis. Some other phones even have u43 sensors. It is just a matter of time for some phone company to come up with some cinema phones with a s35 sensor. Once the "cinema phone" comes, the cinema world will be changing paradigm quickly. Many old rules just can not hold any more. The so called 24p for cinema, 30p for news, 60p for sports and action and gaming, will be under serious tests. Personally, I think these ps are just tradition, than pure scientific optimization, and thus, will fade away with time.

you see, you don't have any convincing data to support why eu sets 25p as the standard. if 24p is the holy grail like some of you think, if 24p is fundamental to cinematography, just like light speed to modern physics, eu should set 24p as its standard. and why 25p, not 23p? both are 1p away from 24p. as you can see, when we dig more, we can tell this 24p is mandatorily chosen, not optimized. otherwise, there should be data supporting why 24p is superior to 25p and 23p, and so on.

interestingly, why are so many attacking me on titanic as hfr movie? i learn it from wiki, blame wiki if you want to, lol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_with_high_frame_rates

i want to bypass af100's internal avchd 24mbps weak codec. i already have inferno, ki mini, nano flash, i want to try uncompressed to see how much it can improve the grading.

Also, even if when we watch top gun 2 or john wick 4, and feel their motion blur is normal for 24p in action takes, probably the colorist did some trick reducing the motion blur in post. Unless we see the raw footage, we don't know. If motion blur is reduced in post, then the 24p purpose of larger than life is defeated.

about 30p is for news. this used to be true when 2/3 eng cams rule the news gathering world. no matter how hard 2/3 or 1/2 eng cams try, that small sensor look is imbed. and no matter 30p or 60p they are, they were dispised by the cinema world, which was reasonable discrimination. nowadays, fx9 c300 iii etc are popular in news gathering, 30p on large sensor cams vs 24p on large sensor cams, there is not much difference, totally different from 30p 2/3 inch or 1/2 inch eng cams vs 24p s35 cams.

the ones i know: cd gemini 1080p 30p 444 uncompressed (very rare on used market) cd 7q/7q+ 1080p or 4k 444 60p uncompressed (expensive, about $1000) bm shuttle v1/v2 1080p 30p 422 uncompressed (cheap even when new, but mounting is difficult) any other choice? thx

When indie dps have more influence than hollywood, they may make their own rules and the viewers will follow. Now it is all about eye-catching war.

You are really imaginative, good for you as a future dp. lol.

You are totally right. Such a trend will be more and more apparent in the next 10 to 20 years. Hollywood now relies on fast actions and large scale green screen plus heavy vfx. Yet they still use 24p for these larger than life motion blurred movies. LOL.

Will you ask Roger Deakins how many cams does he have? or how many thongs does he have? LOL.

About the populism and elitism, only because of the internet, Trump was elected the US president 2016-2020. This never happened before in US history. So with the new technologies, populism may win. Not in every field, but in the fields that democratize the knowledge and skills. (un)fortunately, photography and cinematography are such fields. Financial engineering is still elitism based, due to the limited access of the information and the capital. I'd like to see the new world when finance is democratized. LOL.

Interesting discussion, actually. I guess your point is more about elitism vs populism. One hundred years ago, 16p and 24p were determined by Hollywood powerful producers and dps single handed. The world followed. At the time, the technology is exclusive. Elitism in cinematography is true. Now, the technological barrier is almost none. It is just internet, democratize information. Nowadays, you can have a crop mood ml raw cam lower than $500, and have true lossless 14 bit raw, on par with arriraw. In the still photography world, such trend already happens. Anyone with an iphone or u43 cam, can snap at the right moment in the right place, some decisive moments. Some of these photos are no less than a pro's master piece, in all of the ways. In 10 to 20 years, such trend will come to the cinema world. Plus the AI, most of the time, you even don't need a pretty model anymore. Exciting time, but many old rules may not hold anymore, including the 24p thing.