Jedi Master

Thank you. Looks like I was using a poor method of color grading based on a lack of understanding of color management. The one I've been using I learned by trial and error and it worked for my A6500 footage. Looks like it's time to learn a better method, so I plan to put my camera decision on hold for a while while I learn more about color management. I'll start with ACES and go from there. After that, I'll go back and regrade all of the clips of sample footage I downloaded and see if I can get better, more consistent results.

I use Resolve Studio and have these color management settings: Importing Canon RAW Lite and REDRAW automatically converts the clips into Rec.709 and they look pretty good as-is and don't require much color grading. Doing the same with s-log files doesn't do that--I need to use a LUT (which I downloaded from the Sony website) or do it manually.

This was ungraded, s-log footage that I downloaded. I'm a competent grader (although not as good as a professional, obviously), but just couldn't get results I liked with the Sony footage. The Canon and RED footage was ungraded Canon Cinema RAW Lite and REDRAW footage, which I graded myself. The fact that I had an easier time grading the Canon and RED footage indicates to me that I'd have an easier time grading footage from a Canon or a RED camera, if I decided to go that route, than a Sony camera. It's entirely possible that someone else could grade Sony footage to make it look as good, or better, than the Canon and RED footage, but I need to choose based on my own capabilities. To quote Dirty Harry, "A man's got to know his limitations".

I don't like two things about the C70: its form-factor, and its built-in flip-out screen.

After much research and thought this weekend, my shortlist is down to these three, in order of most preferred to least preferred: Canon C300 Mark III RED DRAGON-X Sony FX9 Mostly it came down to looking at sample footage. The Sony footage does nothing for me—it seems bland and sterile compared to the Canon and the RED footage. (I found FX9 footage from several sources, so it’s not one bad example). The FX9 can’t record RAW internally, and the other two can.

We use a Rode NTG2 shotgun mic. Syncing sound and video hasn’t been a problem—Davinci Resolve has some nice tools for syncing sound, and my wife is really into the production part of making these videos—in addition to the Zoom and mic, she has a clapper slate to identify the clips and provide a sync sound. Would a timecode box significantly improve this process?

None yet. I plan to buy some in whatever mount and coverage (S35 or FF) the camera I buy requires.

Wow, interesting reading. That certainty took my opinion of RED down a notch or two.

Wow, that sounds like a real issue. Perhaps not so for me, however. My work in the field generally consists of walking to a new site, setting up the tripod and camera, and taking 2-3 minutes of footage before breaking it down and moving to the next location. The Sony A6500 I have has a reputation for overheating, but I’ve never encountered it, even on summer days when the temperature is over 40C, probably because I take short clips with plenty of time in between. Sound isn’t much of an issue, as I rarely can use in-camera sound for various reasons, the primary one being the often noisy tourists in the places I like to film. I almost always replace the sound with background music and narration. For the times when ambient sound is needed and the footage would seem weird without it, like surf crashing on shore, I send my assistant (my wife) closer to the source with a Zoom F6 and directional mic to capture sound. For instances when ambient sound would add to the experience, like birdsong, but doesn’t require synchronization with the video (like surf does), I have a whole collection of sound clips recorded with the Zoom I can drop into videos.

I’m quite good at it. Not pro-level, of course, but I’m always able to achieve results that look good to me, and as a hobbyist, that’s what really counts. I currently use s-log2 or 3 on my Sony A6500 and grade in Davinci Resolve Studio. During my camera research, I’ve downloaded lots of sample footage from various cameras and experimented with grading it in Resolve. My favorites, so far are Canon Cinema RAW Lite, v-log, and REDRAW.

Interesting. What generation of RED cameras had overeating issues? The earliest ones, or some of the more recent ones?

Like many hobby-related decisions, this comes down more to what I want rather than what I need. I’ll probably end up spending more money than necessary, but that’s what some hobbies are—money pits. I could drive to work in an inexpensive economy car, but I prefer to drive something a little more sporty and luxurious, even though both will get me between point A and point B. Same thing with cameras for my hobby work. 😉

I forgot that it had that option as a possibility. Thanks for reminding me. One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is build quality of BMD vs RED. I’ve seen a tear-down of an URSA and a tear-down of a RED (don’t remember which one, but it was one of the DSMC2s) and the difference in the thermal management systems was stark, with the RED implementation looking much better designed and robust compared to the BMD. As an engineer who has to pay close attention to thermal issues in my own work, I know how important good thermal management can be to reliability and longevity of electronics, which is what these cameras are all about.

Minimal, yes, but that's all I really need. I'm not shooting a feature film, so I don't need all the do-dads you see on cameras used for that task. Plus, adding unnecessary stuff increases the weight of the rig. I have mixed feelings about the RED brand. Back when digital was in its infancy, well before ARRI and others got into the market, RED was a big name and I certainly aspired to own one, but the cost was too high back then. Now that the price of models like the Dragon-X and Komodo are in my grasp, I've been somewhat soured on the RED brand due to their price-gouging on Mini-Mags and other accessories, and their litigious behavior towards other companies using internal RAW recording. The reports of reliability issues is a worry too, since if I get the Dragon-X it's a model that RED has already discontinued and probably won't support much longer (assuming they still do, which might not be the case). The Varicam sounds interesting, but it seems to use proprietary media (P2 cards) that are expensive ($395 for a 30GB card and $1840 for 512GB!) I'll give that one a pass. The BMD URSA 12K is still high on my list of possibilities. Some of the things I don't like about it: reliability concerns, non-detachable screen, and use of CFast cards. Likes: BRAW, PL mount, its menus, and built-in ND filters. I'll definitely keep this one on my short list. ZCam and Kinefinity look like great options with interesting technology. I especially like the media the Kinefinity uses. It's just a shell that holds a common NVMe M.2 SSD that's much cheaper than CFast or even CFexpress cards (4TB for $197). This is what RED Mini-Mags should have been. The thing holding me back here is the relative obscurity of the Chinese companies behind these brands. Will they still be in business a few years from now? Will they service their cameras in the mid to long term? Do repairs require shipping the camera to China? Who knows? Panasonic is definitely a possibility, either the S1H or its cubic brother the BS1H. I have fewer qualms about support from a well-established company like Panasonic, assuming, of course, that they don't decide to get out of the camera market altogether! I think Canon and Sony still sit on top of my list, with the C300 Mark III, the FX9, and the FX6 being contenders. Of these, I like the C300 best and it checks off more boxes than the Sony's. Decisions, decisions...

B&H has a kit that includes everything needed to get it up and running, including lens, for $10K. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1445147-REG/red_digital_cinema_710_0318_dsmc2_dragon_x_camera_kit.html

The one I’m looking at is the Dragon sensor in a DSMC2 body.

How about a RED DRAGON-X? I can get one, including accessories, for a good price. Is it too much of an antique for my stated use case?

No, I don't need AF. I also don't need high frame rates (I think the use of slow motion in nature videos is horribly cliché), or anything specifically designed to make fast-paced work easier (because my work is almost the opposite of fast-paced). I also don't hike long distances with equipment. Mostly up to a mile or less from the car. I mostly film wide, sweeping landscapes such as surf crashing on shore, or trees blowing in the wind, or fog creeping through valleys. I don't specifically target wildlife unless it's part of the overall scene.

Wow! Thanks everyone for the interesting discussion. Very helpful. Just some clarification of my intentions: I plan to use this camera for nature documentaries, strictly on an amateur, hobbyist basis. I'm not a professional and concerns like what others in my area are using and what clients want is not a consideration at all. I'm an electrical engineer during the week and go out on weekends to national and state parks and the coast to film and I cut it all together into short (15-30 minute) documentaries with background music and narration along with lots of Ken Burns effect shots of still images that I share with friends and family. I've looked at other cameras like the BMD URSA Mini 12K, the FX6, the BS1H, the Komodo, and the Z CAMs and Kinefitity MAVOs, but found all of them wanting in certain ways. The URSA 12K looks great on paper, but digging around on the Internet revealed that it isn't as reliable as the cameras from the more mainstream manufacturers. I use Davinci Resolve Studio, so the BRAW produced by this camera would be a perfect match, but I just can't get the reports of unreliability out of my head. The Z CAM and Kinefinity also look nice on paper, but I'm hesitant to buy from relatively unknown Chinese companies, especially if they don't have a good support network in this country. The Komodo is as expensive as an FX6, but requires a bunch of other outboard stuff to make it useful, driving the total price up to almost the C300/FX9 level. The BS1H is a cool camera. Small, featureful, and inexpensive enough that when adding a screen, cage, etc., that the price is still reasonable, and it's made by a company that's been around a long time with a good service network. This one is a serious contender. The FX6 is tempting, and I might still seriously consider it. The C300 Mark III and FX9, although larger than some of the others, and more expensive, just seem to me a better fit for what I do. The Canon has an optional PL mount that I'd probably get if I went that route, and the FX9 has a locking mount (although not PL). One thing that does concern me about the FX9, however, is its use of XQD cards, which are only made by a few manufacturers (Sony, Nikon, and maybe one other) and are only available in capacities up to 240GB. The CFexpress Type B cards used by the Canon are available from many more vendors in sizes up to 4TB, and cheaper to boot. I don't need autofocus and plan to use cine lenses with whatever I get. My pace is slow and relaxing and I'm never in a hurry. After a day out in the field, with lunch breaks, I usually come home with 30-45 minutes of footage. I'm not too concerned about Canon and/or Sony releasing new models soon. I've given up on the waiting game as otherwise I'd be waiting forever the the next, latest and greatest thing, and I'm not getting any younger!

Hi all. This is my first post here. I hope this type of question is okay here. I'm trying to decide between a Canon C300 Mark III and a Sony FX9. I'm not currently invested in either the Canon or Sony ecosystem, so that's not a consideration. My use case is documentaries, 99% of the time on a tripod. I've read lots of reviews and have looked at sample footage, but still can't make the choice. When adding up everything I'll need, the price differential came out to just a few dollars, so that's not going to help me decide. Any advice, experiences, etc., appreciated. C300 MKIII Pluses: Uses more modern cards (CFexpress type B) that are both cheaper and available in high capacities Easy to adapt to PL lens mount (but somewhat costly at $1500) Supports RAW internally (Canon Cinema RAW Lite) Ten stops of internal ND Touchscreen monitor Minuses: Internal ND not infinitely variable FX9: Pluses: 6K FF sensor (downrezzed to 4K internally) S-Cinetone Locking E-mount Infinitely variable internal ND Minuses: No touch screen Uses older, harder to get in high capacities, cards (XQD) with shrinking list of vendors No internal RAW No way to output full 6K resolution of sensor Internal ND is only seven stops