5D Mark III or Blackmagic Cinema Camera?

[cameraboy]

sometimes he doesn't look that professional ...
from his blog...

Shane says:
August 14, 2012 at 5:25 pm

Innocent, the 1DC is the most filmic looking digital capture device I have seen other than the Arri Alexa. It is many things, an experienced cinematographer behind the camera, camera settings that I use from my 5D and then the camera itself. The black magic camera is 3500, just because it is 2k doesn’t make it a good camera, the 5D kicks the shit out of that device,

and u got shit from others ...
use Shane blog u can learn lot of craft and tricks but don't rely on his camera evaluation ...

[Bruno]

Great comeback Mark.

People need to realise there is such a thing as the internet. You don't have to physically put a card into an C300 and physically copy the files onto your laptop to make an informed judgement on the image quality.

That's just silly. When I asked if he'd ever graded C300 footage, I never implied he needed to own one to do so. And I don't own one either.

Even using raw in the BMCC won't give you the same low light performance you can get from a C300. Not even film will!
That doesn't mean the BMCC is not a great camera and won't be better than the C300 in many other aspects, but don't be blind.
C300 footage has nothing to do with Canon DSLR's badly compressed video, its grading possibilities are way better than that, even if it's not raw.
Of course it costs 4x more, and personally I'd go with the BMCC, because it's a better deal for my needs and budget, but I'm not going to ignore all its downsides and pretend it's as good as an Alexa and can beat all the other cameras out there.

I know there's no way you'll ever give Canon a compliment again, but there's no need to pull a BMCC version of reduser.net here!

[cameraboy]

i agree that there is more distortion on wide lens but not that much in center ... but what about lens light fall-off on FF APS sensors ... or loss of resolution in corners ... people should ask them selfs why now do we need 12800 iso to shoot ... because we need at last 5.6f or more to have usable DOF on FF...and dont forget that CANON rates their ISO half stops lower than real...i color corrected 5d3 , 5d2 and DNG from BMC ...if i would say they are equally usable or in the same league i would not be polite or diplomatic i would be a lair ... few years ago CANON started revolution but BMC starts new one ...

[Andrew Reid]

This article is very unfortunate for it's very innacurate information on many fronts, in particular it's bias towards a product which very few people have actually used.

Finally the writer really downplays the look fo full frame sensors, which is quite unique and can't really be replicated with smaller sensor cameras.

I really don't mean to bash the camera (I think the BMC is great and I will probably buy it or rent it extensively), and I am a 5DM3 owner, I have shot wonderful stuff with it and am very happy (so far, an ESPN polo show and a tv commercial totally shot on green screen).

Here we go again.

Because you have different needs from a camera than I do, you claim my points are invalid and misinformation. How is that fair? I write from my own viewpoint on my own blog under the heading of my own perspective on cameras. If you don't like it, I am not going to change my entire shooting requirements to suit one upset reader. You see my position here?

I also like Chinese takeaways. Is that misinformation? I like dogs instead of cats. Misinformation? You get the picture.

If you agree with the oracle, then great. If not, please save me the misinformer tag.

Now... Onto your post which thankfully contains a counter argument. This is rare!

You say that only real material can tell us the true performance of the camera. Well you can't get much more real than John Brawley shooting in challenging natural light, and the camera did well. I am very excited about this camera since I have seen the Cinema DNG files on my 2.5K monitor. Until you see that, you are right to be skeptical. Vimeo 1080p or streaming doesn't look very nice, at all.

I didn't address weather proofing in the article, because I often overlook that for my own needs. You are right to point it out as a requirement of yours, but I have to focus the blog on my own honest opinion and that means focussing on my own needs. Again if it matches your circumstances, great!

I am all for the full frame look. Portraiture especially. It is daft to do a close up at 20mm on a crop sensor. This is why I shoot telephoto at 50-85mm on the GH2 so much. For my kind of work it is very useful and these lenses have almost zero distortion in the centre crop. The crop sensor on the Blackmagic will be extremely useful for this. On full frame I often find the long end compromised for the sake of a better look at wider angles. It should have had a crop mode like the GH2, or even the D800 with the DX crop mode.

So as you said, you came on here purely to bash the article not the camera - that isn't fair - at least have an understanding of where I am coming from with my opinion - my uses for the camera. It would take a writer a lot better than I am to write something that everybody agrees with no matter what their use for the camera is. I am not going to speak for you and your ESPN polo shoots or being out on a boat with your 7D and weather proofing. I am a narrative filmmaker and music video director. I will however speak for me and people like me, and I don't think you should look down on that. I will allow you to speak as a counter point, that is what comments are for. But please have some god damn respect.

[cameraboy]

i know ...
i still doesn't like digital look ...i always like film ....

[Andrew Reid]

To suggest a bias, to me implies that I have an ulterior motive beyond shooting for prasing it. I don't.

The shoot is everything. Specifically my shoot and my requirements for it. I like it because of how closely it resembles the look of film, for $3000.

Again if you do too, you will find EOSHD useful in the coming months.

I'm afraid you won't be finding any 7D weather proofing articles here. If you can get the same image quality from a 7D, or raw and 2.5k from a 5D, the article would have been very different. You don't like the article because I glossed over the weather proofing of the 7D and full frame look of the 5D Mark III. Actually I love the full frame look, I may still use my 5D Mark III for the odd close-up of a face.

[Andrew Reid]

'Administrator' what a nice way to address someone.

Again you have forgotten that the article wasn't written as free personal one to one consultancy for Ruben Fernandez and the specific needs of Ruben Fernandez.

If my article is biased towards the needs of narrative filmmakers or people who just want better resolution and dynamic range, and a raw codec for $3000 then I'm fine with that. Yes I'm biased to it in that case, because that is what the camera offers.

Or are you implying something else?

The objective is more valuable when mixed with the subjective. Zacuto Shootout was about that too. Subjective real world views are to me far more relevant than charts and graphs.

A GoPro camera is superior to an Alexa as a sports action camera mounted on a surfboard, that doesn't mean to say that I should weight that aspect in my article entitled Alexa vs GoPro as highly as dynamic range or raw codec if aiming the article at narrative filmmakers.

First person to rig an Alexa to a surfboard gets a prize.

[Andrew Reid]

Again, replace the word inaccurate with 'not for you' and the word biased with 'what works for the majority, including me', and we will be getting somewhere.

By the way, would you also like Mr Administrator to set up a free consultancy for ESPN polo shooters? Any good business premises as close as possible to your front door, let me know.

[markm]

Ruben I think most people understand you have to cost in ND filters lenses and the truth is iif you want to make a professional film you need cast crew actors script lighting sound and budget. In fact if you get all that the cost of the camera is neglible and would probably go for something like an Alexa anyway.

I guess if you want to say the true cost of a BMC if you dont have the neccesary stuff then look to budget £30000 to £5000 pounds. If you want to use a C100 Okay you dont need ND filters but you will need a recorder and lenses too.

Do you really need to spoon feed people what they should know anyway if paying out this sort of money?

[Andrew Reid]

Ruben, I'm excited about the Blackmagic but to mistake this as fanboy-ism is to miss the point.

Filmmaking is broad, for sure. But as Mark said so eloquently above, I have to focus for the sake of brevity in the articles - I have to let people take up their own position on what is applicable for their needs and what isn't. If I spoke for any other person other than myself, it wouldn't be right. You won't agree with everything I write here. But you are flat out wrong to suggest it is Blackmagic fanboyism. To say I have no basis to be excited about a raw camera at $3000 which shoots the kind of image I have seen for my own eyes on my 2.5k screen, is wrong.

This article started with me thinking long and hard about what matters to me in terms of image quality.

The camera is incredibly filmic. For every argument I've heard against the small sensor there are 5 in favour of the raw codec, 12bit colour, workflow, resolution and dynamic range.

You need to rig up a DSLR for handheld work, it is no different with this. Shoot handheld with a 7D & no rig and it will look as jittery as shooting two handed with the Blackmagic and no proper grip. There's no extra cost involved with this camera above a DSLR. ProRes doesn't even necessitate any extra upgrading on the post side, a laptop is good enough. Raw can be transcoded or edited by proxy. It isn't LOG. It is like a sequence of raw stills. You don't need to apply grading if you don't find it practical to do so within time constraints.

Raw allows for mistakes to be made in the heat of the moment too. Under or overexpose a 7D shot, and you are... Shot.

I read all your posts on the forum Ruben. You have some valid points. A shame about the conclusion.

[Andrew Reid]

Sure I am all for a balanced view but these cameras aren't balanced or close in terms of the specs sheet. I come down so heavily in favour of the Blackmagic Cinema Camera because I dislike the image from the 5D Mark III and the limited video mode which Canon have had ample chance (and 3 years) to improve. The codec is noisy in the lows, the resolution is not at the GH2 benchmark for a DSLR, even after sharpening in post, the roll-off to highlights is not smooth, sometimes even looks harsher than the camera it replaced. The 5D and 7D lack a lot of what the Blackmagic has - raw, 12bit, 2.5k, HD-SDI, ProRes, cinema optimised sensor and touch screen user interface (shutter angle instead of shutter speed for example), proper focus assist, wide dynamic range, it is a long list. That isn't misinformation I'm afraid!

Don't mistake this post for a review, I never labeled it as one. The real proof of the pudding will come in the review and I will dissect the image and the camera extensively then.

I agree with you that the DSLR is better for your needs and that the BMD is new and relatively untested but that goes without saying as it has not been around as long.

No single opinion suits everyone, indeed there's no advice however objective and scientific suits everyone all of the time. I concentrated on image quality in this article. When I come to handling, I still believe the DSLR has no real advantage over the BMCC and both need rigging for handheld work similarly. In fact you can argue that the BMCC doesn't need an monitor as it has one built in, with a proper focus assist. That is the fact. When I say I like that aspect, it is my opinion. People who mistake my opinions for facts should realise what a blog is. It isn't Wikipedia. It is a blog of my experience in the world of filmmaking tools, I call it how I see it and will continue to do so.

[Anil Rao]

[Ruben gives Andrew a rough shove and starts yelling at Andrew in an alien language which Andrew doesn't understand]

Dr. Fernandez: [explaining] He doesn't like your articles.

Andrew: Sorry.

Dr. Fernandez: [grabbing Andrew]
*I* don't like your articles either. You just watch yourself.
We're wanted men. I have shot for the United Nations and ESPN Polo on twelve camera systems.

Andrew: I'll be careful.

Dr. Fernandez: You'll be dead!

Anil: [intervening] This little one's not worth the effort. Come, let me get you something, like manners for instance.

[Dr. Fernadez shoves Andrew across the room and pulls out a 5DMK111]

Bartender: No Canons! No canons!

[Anil ignites his wisdom, severing Ruben's unjustified bashing] :D

'Maybe I might have gone overboard labeling the article as fanboyish, but I do read it, as I said as unnecesarily one sided.'

With no due respect Ruben, administrate this... by making your first post an attack on the writer 'I bash the article because it is so biased towards a product.' and justifying it by applying a warped psychology of technical superiority 'I have shot with most of the professional cameras out there, from the venerable Arri 435s and SRIIIs to Alexa, Red One and Epic, practically all Cine Altas (F900, F35, F23, and EX1 and EX3), Phantom, and of course DSLRs.' over the laymen, tells me all I need to know about you. Another trollite and a way too obvious one, your utter disrespect in how you wish to address your point to an audience, of which is so bloody obvious to any one with half a wit, has no merit or standing. I stand before your greatness, you've shot for the United Nations, wooooooooooooooh... another bunch of misfits who allow genocide to happen everyday while they debate what pudding they will have for lunch.

Andrew, you don't need any help or justification for what is and always has been from the beginning of EOSHD your views on things, and you should always return the respect of an expression that asks with diligence, nuance and curiosity why you have said that. Debate is about bettering ones standing, to acquire knowledge to be better, and discover a new way of seeing something I wake up for this and this site has always illuminated me in that aspect. What I find intolerable, is when someone believes that bullying with a get out clause is acceptable and it isn't.Forgive me for my sentiment on this but having grown up under a lot of hate I know where it strikes and how it gets away with it.

[Andrew Reid]

Great post sir. I mean how can any sensible person not believe that a raw codec contains more image info than a compressed 8bit one until they see a 'chart test'. It is just a way to undermine my knowledge that's all.

If people read these debates hopefully they get some info out of it. There was a troll today I had to ban because he was simply adding nothing to the conversation. It was all about how I am anti-5D3, biased-this and that. Christ, put it in a PM and save the other user's time.


I have no time for any of these arrogant craftsmen churning out job after job not really caring about the art of it and lashing out at the younger guys who they feel threatened by.

[FilmMan]

Mr. Admin, just kidding. Check this out...

https://vimeo.com/anguslyne/bmcclimit

[ELEV8DMIND]

as every camera, it has pros and cons - you're forgetting to mention the poor internal battery life and excessive memory and post processing required to handle all the footage. The MKIII has its benefits in those regards, I wouldn't say goodbye to it so easily! ;)

[Zach]

as every camera, it has pros and cons - you're forgetting to mention the poor internal battery life and excessive memory and post processing required to handle all the footage. The MKIII has its benefits in those regards, I wouldn't say goodbye to it so easily! ;)

Agreed to an extent. I will certainly not be touching any RAW footage in the next few years. I've got the processor to handle it, but not the patience. I don't think I can justify the time spent in post and the extra HD space!

[iancarlson]

I think raw is a little overwhelming, but I would love to have the Prores workflow of the BMC. I'm pretty sure there are a good number of FCP X users that have to spend literally hours transcoding H264 (from a GH2) to Prores. Yes 5DtoRGB has batch processing but sometimes it gets hung up or I have files that have the same file name (due to different memory cards being loaded) and I have to babysit the process. After several projects it gets annoying. With Prores files and thunderbolt that process I'm guessing is minutes rather than hours. To me, the BMC actually means a much faster workflow.

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Hi IanCarlson: I agree completely!

See my post elsewhere in the forum:

[markm]

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Andrew, you don't need any help or justification for what is and always has been from the beginning of EOSHD your views on things, and you should always return the respect of an expression that asks with diligence, nuance and curiosity why you have said that. Debate is about bettering ones standing, to acquire knowledge to be better, and discover a new way of seeing something I wake up for this and this site has always illuminated me in that aspect. What I find intolerable, is when someone believes that bullying with a get out clause is acceptable and it isn't.Forgive me for my sentiment on this but having grown up under a lot of hate I know where it strikes and how it gets away with it.

This was a good debate for Andrew where other forums have accused him of bias and a chance to show why he rates certain products in the way he does. (A way I like too.) The criticism of being biased could fit like an anchor on other forums. The GH2 is a landmark camera albeit accidently through hacking and the BMC shows up all the other manufacturers.

A troll is someone who in the face of something so obvious denies the truth to try to sway others to a lie or to dislike undermine and often just for twisted enjoyment.

I thought Ruben was beginning to understand and perhaps question what perhaps other forums have been critical about. That's real trolling and they dont get thrown off the sites in question. Why? Because it's in the sites interest. Again this is biased behaviour by other site mods. Although you could say it's just an uininformed opinion. Ruben should have a right to bring an argument or opinion and Andrew gave good answers that will show people his reality. Ruben's view in my opinion was actually helpful in promoting EOSHD. Anyway just another opinion.

[cameraboy]

people dont dismiss RAW ...its blessing ... just use cineform raw ...transcoding in realtime and u get bitrates similar to PRORES ...
and its light on CPU ... try , u never look back ..