Vincent Laforet says C100 leads to 'murky future' for DSLRs

[Andrew Reid]

Some quotes I picked up from Laforet's blog today. Nice guy. But not sure I agree with him.

"[color=#444444][font=sans-serif][size=3]If this camera is available in the $6-7K range on the street one day – it could really question the need to shoot on HDSLRs anymore"[/size][/font][/color]

Why didn't he say this about the Sony FS100? That has been out on the shelves, well under $6k for over a year now and still we have a lot of DSLR shooters.

True the C100 has a more DSLR form factor, but the FS100 is also very compact and modular for a video camera. The ergonomics are not as sleek, but I rarely have issues with handling it. The image is in my opinion 90% as good as the C300 especially via uncompressed HDMI, for a fraction of the price. I got mine $4200 used. The internal codec is superb given the low bitrate.

[color=#444444][font=sans-serif][size=3]"I think this camera will likely put a noticeable dent in the use of mid- to upper- range HDSLRs for video production such as the Canon 5D MKIII and Canon EOS 1DX given that the C100 meets a lot of the ergonomic needs of filmmakers that HDSLRS lack (EVF, LCD, Built in ND)"[/size][/font][/color]

Well the 5D mark III and 1DX don't help themselves - that's true, but they lack MUCH MORE than just built in NDs. It isn't about the EVF, LCD or NDs. What Vincent seems to be implying here is that Canon gave up on DSLR video, putting all their eggs into the Cinema EOS basket. Well I certainly agree with that. Their mirrorless doesn't even have an EVF, their 1D X doesn't have peaking, someone conservative high up chose not to push and innovate. So whilst the 5D Mark III is dead for video, a Sony A99 or full frame camera with all that innovation (and yes - peaking even!) will be alive and kicking vs the smaller chip C100. The full frame still holds an appeal for many over Super 35mm. Bloom especially seems to like that large sensor aesthetic a lot, even vs the C300 which he uses a hell of a lot. Indeed, Vincent came from a stills background and I am surprised he doesn't mention the stills functionality of these cameras - in the case of the 1D X it is world leading for that. Video production more and more relies on stills functionality - timelapse, BTS, poster images, video journalism, mixed media, news reportage, freelancer offering both stills and video on small budget, the list goes on. Convergence is still going to happen even if it has taken a backseat for now.

As for video pros - well in my opinion DSLRs have been out of the spotlight of many pros since the first large chip video cameras came along so I don't think we'll be seeing much of a change here. However, and I can only gauge my own view of interest in DSLR video here - the visitor numbers to EOSHD have doubled in the last 6 months, and were already high before that. So interest in DSLR video has never been higher, with more choice out there on the shelves.

The future isn't murky for these cameras, in fact it is very promising. Not so much in the Canon camp, but others are (and will) innovate. With the extra horsepower to fix scaling, oversampling from 20MP+ to 2K or 4K is always going to look better than a native 2K or 4K sensor. That is one advantage of a photographic sensor.

If you oversample dedicated R, G and B photosites like the C300 does from 4K to 1080p for example, you get as close to true 1080p as it is possible to get. A DSLR could do video like that in the very near future. The pixel design of CMOS sensors goes forward very quickly in the consumer market. Some of the biggest R&D projects go into consumer hardware before it goes into pro stuff.

The other innovation is uncompressed HDMI - or a direct sensor tap. Raw over an HD output on a DSLR is a distinct possibility. 4K too, because of pent up consumer demand for 4K displays - TVs - the PS4 as well are all on the way. 4K on consumer cameras is the future and inevitable. So DSLRs will move up with the rest of them.

I don't see a murky future at all.

Just more choices for more affordable C100-style offerings. Good for us.

Here's what Vincent says in full

[url="http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2012/08/29/canon-c100-leads-to-murky-future-for-mid-to-upper-range-video-hdslrs"]http://blog.vincentl...ge-video-hdslrs[/url]

[Anil Rao]

I feel the following is the best part of his understanding and importantly, the right one too.

[i][color=#444444][font=sans-serif][size=3]Many may be taken aback with the idea of spending $7,999 on this camera at first. [/size][/font][/color][color=#008000][font=sans-serif][size=3]But if you stop to think about what you WON’T NEED TO BUY – it can actually start to look like a wise investment.[/size][/font][/color][color=#444444][font=sans-serif][size=3] This camera comes ready to shoot. The ergonomics are great so you don’t HAVE to have a cage. You don’t need to buy an external audio recorder and synching software – this has XLR inputs (and stereo headphone jack as well as levels) with the handle. You don’t necessarily need rods, a matte box, and Neutral density filters – ND filters are built in. That alone is a savings of $1,000-$4,000 in that type of setup alone (but you can of course choose to buy a good variable ND filter for a few hundred dollars as opposed to rods and matte boxes and rod support.) You don’t need to buy and EVF and a way to mount it to your HDSLR. Same goes for an LCD – although both the Canon LCD and EVF leave a lot to be desired when compared to the Zacuto EVF and external Marshall monitors. All those accessories will still help those that want the best quality and versatility.[/size][/font][/color][/i]

It was people, yes, people like you reading this, who defined the DSLR era not the companies right? They added a feature and thought nothing off it and it was exploited to a better purpose, (like SMS for phones, the last thing added and only added as a reluctant feature as all phone companies had argued that why would you text when you can call? So what turned out to be the main feature used by people on mobiles... yup SMS! Go figure.) it gave an unforeseen spike to many video camera enthusiasts and a lot of third parties caught the wind with their own offerings to supplement that movement, rigs, cages, monitors, sound etc.

How many people who had only shot video on a consumer do it all out of the box camera, rushed out to think they could become so easily the next Vittorio Storaro after buying a DSLR? Who only then were shocked to be felled so quickly by the need to know how to use a camera first (in manual), without automations settings, and what other things were a necessary requirement in order to furnish those images like in a Vincent Laforet way?

The DSLR movement reminds of the the dot.com boom, where everyone thought if they open a website they would become rich, again not knowing anything about SEO, banners, advertising and generally how it all actually works...

What 'murky future' is, is a response that acknowledges that Canon and the like have recognised this movement but they won't be led or told what to do by them. They will instead gear their offerings the way they have always done, to apply a little by little, step by step. When you look at what all of you fetish about and are asking for in your list of demands, well if they gave in to that, what happens to them as a business, they'd all be out of business, that's what would happen. The C100 is a threat to the mainstream idea of DSLRs as viable kit for shooting video in a correct way. I'm sure that all of you like myself will have heard the following comment, 'What... that shoots video?' which has always greeted me when ever I pull out out my DSLR to shoot video. Because for the companies that make them, shooting video is an afterthought and every model that continues to be released with that form factor always will be... a stills camera that can also shoot video, which is first and what comes second.

One could negate Canon were caught out unawares, however I don't believe that for a second, having secured immediately when it was announced the XL1 in the late 90s, Canon were leaps ahead of any adaptor-Letus set-up with their interchangeable lenses for video. We the adapters of this movement are all small fry compared to what they have achieved as a business and sustained as one for all this time which is their primary goal as a business. Normally all tech companies are about 15-20 years ahead of what they can bring to the table for the masses today. However, there have been many times rebuttals from consumers over having the best tech now, one of the most famous ones was video tape when the VHS standard by JVC in 76 was favoured over Betacam by Sony which was launched a year earlier in 75, however Betacam was the superior format technically, what happened to it, it became adapted for the pro market instead. Japan were experimenting with HD in the 70s and HD ready in the 80s. Unfortunately where we are at now, is that the whole blog/cam community seem only inherent in chasing the announcements of new tech and not actually using it for what it is made for. Everyone seems to be technically at war with each others opinions and understandings, equations and evaluations and arguing on that, is it really only Chung, Laforet, Bloom, Reid, Farges, Lee, who actually shoot anything in the world? It sure feels that way sometimes.

It will only and should only ever be about what you shoot and what is the best tool to achieve that vision. I am a filmmaker for a living, I am a paid professional and not some sit on the web fence and throw custard pies at each other trollite. I will not use a BMD Cam for day to day event/vox pop/corporate work as I need a super fast turnaround, sometimes having to show that days shoot the next day at the same event. However for a feature film I will definitely look at it and what others are available to achieve what I need for that work and for what budget I have. I shoot/edit fast which is also why I am hired most of the time. So whatever time I can alleviate without compromising quality is mutually beneficial for me and my clients and they trust me on that.

This C100 is Canons answer to all the nonsense and noise of the last few years, their XL1 which I loved (as well as Pannys DVX series) has evolved to become the C100 and as Laforet rightly states, it does bode a murkyness for DSLRs as video devices for the main stream/semi-professional. Of course we'll always be naturally pushing lo-tech to achieve high tech capabilities, but definitely for the user friendly idea of a high end camera for video that can allow you to become as close to a Storaro right out of the box and within a reasonable price bracket, without all the fuss of additional gubbins, that is what we are waiting for, and that is what the C100 is to some extent.

I still believe in much lower priced tech and having a Guerilla attitude and always will do as a personal choice as that is what I have used all my working life and the achievement of The Blair Witch Project, which I know was more about marketing applications then how it was shot, is testament to what you can achieve, it's what you have to say, and not what you say it on that counts.

Best A :-)

[nigelbb]

It's a great looking camera & very likely to be used by professionals instead of a DSLR. We currently use a C300 plus a couple of 5D3s but will probably get a C100 when they ship. If the C100 is good enough we might even sell the C300 & 5D3s & just use three C100s instead. However there are a whole load of people using a GH2 or 550D/T2i or 600D/T3i who are never going to be in the market for an $8000 camera.

[Andrew Reid]

"[i][color=#444444][font=sans-serif][size=3]Many may be taken aback with the idea of spending $7,999 on this camera at first. [/size][/font][/color][color=#008000][font=sans-serif][size=3]But if you stop to think about what you WON’T NEED TO BUY – it can actually start to look like a wise investment.[/size][/font][/color][color=#444444][font=sans-serif][size=3] This camera comes ready to shoot. The ergonomics are great so you don’t HAVE to have a cage. You don’t need to buy an external audio recorder and synching software – this has XLR inputs (and stereo headphone jack as well as levels) with the handle. You don’t necessarily need rods, a matte box, and Neutral density filters – ND filters are built in. That alone is a savings of $1,000-$4,000 in that type of setup alone (but you can of course choose to buy a good variable ND filter for a few hundred dollars as opposed to rods and matte boxes and rod support.) You don’t need to buy and EVF and a way to mount it to your HDSLR. Same goes for an LCD – although both the Canon LCD and EVF leave a lot to be desired when compared to the Zacuto EVF and external Marshall monitors."[/size][/font][/color][/i]

This is a good point from Vincent.

In many cases though, people moving up to the C100 already have these accessories.

Do they sell them and get the C100, or do they keep the versatility and ability to pass the rig amongst several cameras?

If for example an A99 came out and gave the most stunning full frame video possible, and all for $3000, it might make C100 owners feel a bit sick about putting all their eggs in that basket, and throwing some of their existing eggs in the bin.

I'll tell you why I'm not yet ready to pre-order it...

- Photokina is 1 month away. GH3, A99, NEX VG-90 - now that is some prospect
- Blackmagic is likely better in good light, under ISO 800 and I love the film-like look of 12bit raw
- EF mount on C100 is enough of a pain on the Blackmagic, I can't sell my FS100 for C100 and lose all that adaptability. Invested too much in mirrorless glass! (This won't apply to a lot of people)
- The FS700 is 4K ready and I love the super slow mo stuff. Beautiful. It isn't a gimmick if used appropriately.
- I have too many cameras as it is.

[avrofilmvideo]

50P is missing in 2012

[nahua]

Laforet is Canon's bitch, always has been. He won't touch Sony otherwise he'll lose his precious "status". Anyway, once he made it big he completely lost touch with what helped him in the first place - the DSLR! We have yet to come to that perfect convergence point, but I tell you what, Cinema EOS is for pros only and is priced that way. Don't think for a second that it will stop people from using DSLRs. Even the lowly T3i/T4i can produce a great image, not the best image, but it still does a great job. Price will always be a factor, not EVFs or rigs or whatever accessories you think you need. If the C100 was priced under $3K, then you have a point, but at $8K it's for pros (and money wasters) only.

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Photokina starts in a few weeks, and the BMCC will [i]probably[/i] start shipping before the show is over, if not sooner (just a guess).

Most of the cameras announced at Photokina won't start shipping for many weeks or months, some not until 2013.

Meanwhile, the BMCC is probably by far the best video camera value right now, for reasons I explain in another post elsewhere here in the forums (I'll wait here while you go read it):
[url="http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/1217-canon-launch-8000-cinema-eos-c100/page__st__60#entry16913"]http://www.eoshd.com...__60#entry16913[/url]

Welcome back. Of course, as always, there's no 1 best camera, there's only whatever camera you have available to you that best matches your budget, project, schedule, and skill set. It's all good.

For me personally the C100 is a non-starter. Too insanely expensive for what it offers. But that's just me. Cheers.