Exclusive - Canon confirm 1D C 4K DSLR is same hardware as the 1D X

[Paul]

[quote name='mike_tee_vee' timestamp='1348171301' post='18751']
There are no ethical implications to what a business choses to charge for its products. We live in a capitalist society where price action is governed by supply and demand. Canon's goal is to maximize profits. Demand will ultimately dictate price. As much as it sucks, Canon are under no moral obligation to provide cameras at a reasonable price for low budget filmmakers. Take a look at Apple. Margins on most of their products are significantly higher than the competition, yet the demand for them is through the roof.
[/quote]

I think the Apple/Canon comparison is interesting.

Apple released a device, the iPhone, which was a game changer. Canon released the 5D Mk II, which also was a game changer.

I think we can look at Sony/Panasonic/Blackmagic/Nikon as Android. Android devices can do mostly the same & sometimes more than the iPhones. (not interested in an ios vs android fight here btw, just making an example) But Apple holds it's market share and expensive prices because they have fans, and they have people that are estatic over Apple products. I think Canon is following that approach. It doesn't matter if xyz vendor comes out with a camera that's half the price and does twice and much, they are still going to hold their prices because "It's Canon, and people will pay" And people will continue to pay, because they want that extra sharpness, and they want that high bitrate, or they want whatever Canon can offer that Sony and the others cant.

As the owner of Canon DSLR's, batteries, EOS lenses, accessories, and an entire business built up around the capabilities of these cameras, it bothers me that they are going with this approach. I'm not expecting a C300 for the price of a 7D, but they can do better in 2012, this isn't 2008.

[avrofilmvideo]

[quote name='EOSHD' timestamp='1348165653' post='18727']
There might be a different AA filter design on the 1D C but other than that, same camera hardware, just tweaks and firmware added.
[/quote]

Had camera in my hands 2 Days ago.
Other then different filter design on sensor camera can shoot more then 30 minutes, it has got crop(s35mm-that doubles your lenses), can do 1080-50p,
Does have clean 4:2:2,does have C-log,can do 4k 4:2:2 internally AND WILL BE AROUND $11,000.
Is to be released January.

[Andrew Reid]

Business is business I suppose. But I think it could backfire. If you look at how the Hasselblad Lunar went down at Photokina, a NEX 7 with fancy trimmings is not worth 5k.

The 1D C actually IS worth the money. But what a shame it is not even better, with some more customisation and spec creep it would mean a better product for us and less margin for Canon. Canon chose margin. No peaking, no 25p, etc, etc.

They have done the same thing with the Canon C300 / C100 too. Notice that the hardware could be identical there too. And it is just the firmware that has changed to cripple the codec on the C100. By the way, HDMI on that is 4-2-2 and uncompressed so if you want a C300 for less money you know what to do.

[avrofilmvideo]

The only thing i am missing in Canon 1d-c is peaking and 4:2:2 recording in 2K.
WHY not to use the same 4:2:2 codec in 2K????
Japanese logic......
Anyvay to pay about 3-4 grand more is fine.

[HurtinMinorKey]

[quote name='Paul' timestamp='1348173076' post='18754']
I think the Apple/Canon comparison is interesting.
[/quote]

Except when you look at how their stock prices are doing over the past year (+60% vs -20%).

The only reason Canon can even try an play this nerfware game with their products is because Sony has agreed to play along. Sooner or later, entry via BMC and Kineraw is going to force them to play fair. Until then, we have to put up with this bullshi* collusion by the big boys.

[riogrande100]

So a magic lantern hack of the 1DX basically will turn the camera into a 4K DSLR with zebras and Peaking and all the other good stuff! With the dude that just hacked the 7D Dual procs, it looks likely with funding the 1DX will be hacked??? If it is hacked will we see 1DX start flying off the shelf? As im guessing it would be the best all round camera/video! As a camera it is arguably the best DSLR out there, and with the hacks would be a cheapish 4k DSLR!

[Tzedekh]

It would be nice if it could be hacked to yield something other than 8-bit video. Maybe 12-bit CineForm RAW.

[douglaurent]

i saw the 1dc at photokina and i like it - but the price point is simply too high. the 1dx in itself is already a bit too high, but twice as much for one feature is a no go. for a price point of 6000-8000 euros i would for sure buy one 1dc, most likely even two. if the camera costs 12-14.000 euros, i will stay on the 5d level and canon will not make any money at all. for this amount of money, a scarlet with 5k, higher frame rates, hdr-x mode and raw video is the much better choice. canon definitely needs to be below 10.000 euros, or people will realize that its a big ripoff and don't buy it.

[Giovanni Bertani]

[quote name='Paul' timestamp='1348173076' post='18754']

I think the Apple/Canon comparison is interesting.

[/quote]

Well is not interesting at all. The comparison does not make sense at all.

In iPhones you pay the software developement R&D and services development while Android is given free to handset producers together with free services and google should earn money (Not much really) by advertising. (I live alone that Android is a copycat so Google just didn't have Apple costs in R&D...). iOs is a controlled system intended for casual and advance consumers not focused on pure specs but on usability, Android Samsung phones are intended to the more... "Nerdy" consumers (Galaxy etc) focused on performance or to the market of cheap alternatives to iPhones (Entry levels). So we are talking of different business models to approach the same market.

A better comparison...

Compare Canon approach to BMW, Volkswagen, Audi, Mercedes etc... offering in EUROPE the same engines with different "power steps". You look at those and you realize that the 110 HP and the 180 HP are basically the same engines with the same production costs but you pay quite a price difference. This works because every car manufacturer uses the same approach and you are oblidged to follow them.

Well with Canon... The difference is that now they have an incredible competition and pressure not following their approach at all.... Cameras are getting compatible with EOS lenses and there less and less reason to get stuck with such "dumb consumer" strategies.

Canon did this with 500d, 550d 600d 7D 60D etc the same camera with slightly different software and body. Is doing this again with 1D C and 1D X but I think it is plain stupid. I really expect a huge loss of confidence and respect on the brand if Canon continues like this... We read, we have fantastic blogs to source information and communities like Vimeo to see real world results. No fooling here...

[theSUBVERSIVE]

Oh Canon, way to go. I wonder how long can Canon keep it up with all the conservationism, I guess that as long people keep buying it feeding them, they have no reason to change. So I question why people support this kind of thing.

[TC]

[quote name='HurtinMinorKey' timestamp='1348179395' post='18762']
Sooner or later, entry via BMC and Kineraw is going to force them to play fair.
[/quote]

Exactly. They can only do this because of lack of competition. And, ironically, as I have mentioned before, it is this very behaviour allows the competition to come in. Their margins on the 1D C are going to be enormous. Maybe 90%+. That leaves a lot of room for a competitor to make something that does more for less. As we are starting to see now.

Canon's other problem is alienation of its customers. People can see they are being taken for a ride and they don't like it. It became very obvious as soon as the C300 was announced. Obvious not only that Canon wanted you to pay big money for large sensor video, but also obvious that the lack of improvements in Canon's DSLR video performance was a deliberate decision to cripple, not a limitation imposed by the state of technology. From reading forums such as these, I feel that a significant number of people in the photographic/filmmaking community now positively dislike Canon as a company.

One last thing. Blackmagic have stated in interviews that after they announced their camera, they were contacted by other sensor manufacturers who wanted to sell sensors. You can bet the sales reps at those companies weren't just picking up the phone to Blackmagic. All you need now to produce a video camera is a sensor, processing chip, screen and lens mount. All pretty commoditised these days. Blackmagic will be the first of many companies that have never made a camera who enter this market.

[gene_can_sing]

I totally agree with TC. Canon is just out to take people for a ride and take their money and they are ALIENATING their customers big time. I used to be a huge Canon fanboy, but not anymore. Can't take the feeling of being ripped off anymore. The firmware deal just further confirms that feeling. I mean... the 1DX is around 7K and the 1DC is suppose to be 15K? That's paying 8K for a firmware update. Just crazy.... I can't believe anyone would support something like that.

[avrofilmvideo]

[quote name='gene_can_sing' timestamp='1348203964' post='18789']
I totally agree with TC. Canon is just out to take people for a ride and take their money and they are ALIENATING their customers big time. I used to be a huge Canon fanboy, but not anymore. Can't take the feeling of being ripped off anymore. The firmware deal just further confirms that feeling. I mean... the 1DX is around 7K and the 1DC is suppose to be 15K? That's paying 8K for a firmware update. Just crazy.... I can't believe anyone would support something like that.
[/quote]

Read my lips-$11,000

[cameraboy]

Read my lips: too much
:)
joke

[hmcindie]

[quote name='douglaurent' timestamp='1348184401' post='18770']
for this amount of money, a scarlet with 5k, higher frame rates, hdr-x mode and raw video is the much better choice[/quote]

Scarlet does not do 5k. It's neither good at high frame rates as the crop will be horrible. HDR-x will not work with Scarlet in 4k.

You should know this stuff.

[jgharding]

It doesn't surprise me, but it's nice that they were open about it! Yes quite, they aren't a charity, they've created a product for a profit and it's entirely up to them the price they sell it for and how they cripple it in order to make money

The only thing that will stop them doing this is competition. Apple are a good comparison in that, in their field, when their big product came out the competition was scattered and riddled with compromises. They gained a monopoly.

Since then, Android devices have been buggy and all over the place in comparison, but are gradually pulling it together. Apple are separating themselves by producing a premium product and providing a consistent experience.

It seems Canon do the same: they may not offer the best of everything stats wise but [i][b]you know what you're getting[/b]. [/i]That's really important at some levels, when costing up jobs and all your cameramen are booked up. You say to someone you've never worked with before "can you use 5D or C300" and it's usually "yes". Say to them "can you use a GH2 or AF100" and they usually go "errrrrr". That could change with time though, pride and falls etc. But for now Canon are dominating that section of low to mid level production in my experience.

So for the true Indie, maybe Canon won't be the best choice as time goes on, but these two cameras aren't designed to profit from home film-makers, and most home film makers won't actually benefit from 4K at all. Nor RAW to be honest. Personally, right now I don't wish I had a better camera, I wish I knew more good actors :S But let's not start that debate up again!

I'm convinced we'll get a reasonably-priced 4K camera soon, though I'd settle for good sharp-looking 1080 with a good sense of depth! But either way, they can take their 8000 pound firmware update and stick it where the sun don't shine.

[ScreensPro]

Don't forget that Scarlet will require repackaged SSDs that are sold at roughly 5x the market value. Not the 2x profit of Canon.... 5X!

Anyway... Canon know they will only sell high 100s or very low 1000s of this product over the next 12 months, so will look to hit the early adopters for their profit, then probably bring the price down quite dramatically.

Realisticly, it is only the rental companies and one or two operator/owners that will pay this high price.

[hmcindie]

If you want to split hairs then a Scarlet is just an Epic with a different firmware. Think about it. 100% same construction with same parts. The only reason is Red claims that they do "binning" so that only lesser parts end up in the Scarlet. I doubt that slightly.

[richg101]

I'm guessing the 1dc stores straight to card? in 4k? if this is the case, this will gain more market appeal than the red scarlet. even though so many people have this hankering for raw, most dont have the money to then spend multiple $$$$ on the additional hd's (more than £80 worth of ssd storage per 3 minute is it not? and more importantly, most are not undertaking work that even warrants raw.

having 4k straight to card and the dynamic range of the full frame sensor would be amazing, even it if is compressed in camera

such a shame they dont value the additional feature as an additional £500 on top of the cost of the 1dx. in this respect they would turn the industry around like they did with the 5d2

[cameraboy]

except u need fastest udma 7 cards...
Shane Hurlbut used this card
[url="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/841569-REG/Lexar_LCF128CTBNA1000_128GB_CompactFlash_Memory_Card.html"]http://www.bhphotovi...emory_Card.html[/url]
and u get 30 min ....
4GB per SEC ....