Julian Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
see ya Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 No doubt this is something you're already aware of with the GH3, that the GH3 MOV container stuff is h264AVC encoded full range luma, flagged so just like Canon MOV's and the GH3 mts files are AVCHD and encoded limited range luma. So when considering blown highlights in the MOVs from a NLE or media player preview you may not actually be seeing what was shot in camera if Vegas or whatever other media player ignores the fullrange flag set on in the MOV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 To be honest, I have no idea. I kinda get what you're saying, but I have no idea what to do about it or how to check it. I'm a photographer. Relatively new to video :) I have the feeling I see the files just like they are in camera in Vegas and in media player classic. I'm on a windows 7 pc. Is there a way to check if the software is handling the files right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
see ya Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 You can test if Vegas and Media Player Classic handle the GH3 / Canon MOV's correctly with the test files in this zip: [url="http://www.yellowspace.webspace.virginmedia.com/fullrangetest.zip"]http://www.yellowspa...llrangetest.zip[/url] If you import the 16-235_flagon.mp4 into Vegas and/or Media Player Classic as long as you see the 16 & 235 text rather than just white and black horizontal bars then the GH3 / Canon MOV's are getting handled correctly and contrast should be correct, shadows will appear less crushed, highlights will appear less blown, depending on decent exposure at time of shooting. I've created MOV's and mp4's which both contain identical h264 streams but found the MOV's can crash some apps so created mp4's as well. The 16 - 235 in the file name relates to the text, not the luma levels within the file confusingly, they are encoded full luma range. The 16 text should be RGB value 16 and the 235 text should be RGB value 235 when checked with a pipet / color sampling tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Thanks, will check ASAP. Shot some comparisons in low light on both the GH2 and GH3 tonight. Impossible to get the same picture from both cams since the profiles are so different. And especially the colors on the camera displays are a world apart. The GH2 lcd is purple-ish and shows black as grey (being a TFT LCD), the GH3 oled is greenish and shows blacks so dark it looks very crushed (but that could be the high contrast of the oled screen as well). I'll have time to put something online tomorrow evening. Also shot my 'moire' lamp again at different bitrates. As far as I can see on the camera screen there is not really a difference. And did a test at every Iso setting, I'm curious if intermediate settings will perform better. Anyone know a good hacked vs unhacked GH2 iso test? Might be useful for reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 [url="http://vimeo.com/51928527#at=0"]http://vimeo.com/51928527#at=0[/url] This guy tried 'Standard' Picture Profile, and shot with a non-Lumix (Panasonic) lens. Also, he opened his Voigtlander from f2 to f1.2, so background is pretty blurred. Though, from the little portions, which are in focus, it seems sharper than the other videos, doing the rounds. The guy who shot the video, also, doesn't seem to mention, what were his setting (for color,contrast, saturation sharpness) were at (-5,or 0, or +5, or somewhere in between). Grading seems to come out well, with the footage, he's shot. It holds pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 He answered my query, on the settings, on Vimeo: [color=#7B8084][font=sans-serif][background=rgb(244, 245, 247)]"Hi Sanveer, all settings were neutral, 0,0,0,0,0. Standard picture profile. Remember, this is NOT a proper test, just my experience from an hour-long session."[/background][/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxAperture Films Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I'm very comfortable with the strength of the codec, it seems to hold up better than my hacked GH2 when pushed. Color gradation just seems to be smoother. The skin tones look very pleasing as well and I don't see that greenish-yellow color shift in the shadows that sometimes crops up in my GH2 footage. My concern at this point is the moire that has reared it's head, although to be honest it seems fairly minor when compared to Canon and Nikon as it does not seem to exhibit strong false color artifacting. I think worst case scenario would involve having to obtain a drop in filter from Mosaic engineering to correct aliasing artifacts. Mosaic has now expanded their line to cover the 5D2, 7D, 60D, D800, T2i, T3i and T4i, so it seems reasonable that they could also produce a filter for the GH3, if enough demand was received for the product. With a mirrorless camera like the GH3 the filter could probably remain in the camera permanently because it would not have to be removed for still shooting like with Canon and Nikon DSLRs that require movement of the mirror in still shooting mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameraboy Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='MaxAperture Films' timestamp='1350997763' post='20160'] I'm very comfortable with the strength of the codec, it seems to hold up better than my hacked GH2 when pushed. Color gradation just seems to be smoother. The skin tones look very pleasing as well and I don't see that greenish-yellow color shift in the shadows that sometimes crops up in my GH2 footage. My concern at this point is the moire that has reared it's head, although to be honest it seems fairly minor when compared to Canon and Nikon as it does not seem to exhibit strong false color artifacting. I think worst case scenario would involve having to obtain a drop in filter from Mosaic engineering to correct aliasing artifacts. Mosaic has now expanded their line to cover the 5D2, 7D, 60D, D800, T2i, T3i and T4i, so it seems reasonable that they could also produce a filter for the GH3, if enough demand was received for the product. With a mirrorless camera like the GH3 the filter could probably remain in the camera permanently because it would not have to be removed for still shooting like with Canon and Nikon DSLRs that require movement of the mirror in still shooting mode. [/quote] or just stay away from that 12-35 panasonic lens ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxAperture Films Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='cameraboy' timestamp='1350997886' post='20161'] or just stay away from that 12-35 panasonic lens ... [/quote] I thought moire was evident in shots with the Voigtlander footage above... Has the shooter acknowledge those shots were obtained with the 12-35 rather than the Nokton 25mm? I'd be very glad to stand corrected on this! Edit: John Twigt's Vimeo comments seem to say he did not notice any aliasing in his test shots... perhaps it was just the downscaling used for the side-by-side grading comparisons that gave that appearance in the corrugated metal backdrop. I'm glad to stand corrected on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='MaxAperture Films' timestamp='1350999129' post='20162']Edit: John Twigt's Vimeo comments seem to say he did not notice any aliasing in his test shots... perhaps it was just the downscaling used for the side-by-side grading comparisons that gave that appearance in the corrugated metal backdrop. I'm glad to stand corrected on this. [/quote] That's what I thought as well. Maybe the Voigtlander (and the Samyang, the SLR magic asf.) won't show moire. I#ll stay tuned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I found my minolta adapters and lenses! will do some moire tests comparing the 12-35 at 35mm to my classic minolta 35mm for example. On my Hexar 40mm test it showed moire anyway.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='yellow' timestamp='1350941912' post='20136'] If you import the 16-235_flagon.mp4 into Vegas and/or Media Player Classic as long as you see the 16 & 235 text rather than just white and black horizontal bars then the GH3 / Canon MOV's are getting handled correctly and contrast should be correct, shadows will appear less crushed, highlights will appear less blown, depending on decent exposure at time of shooting. [/quote] Media Player Classic shows black and white, I can just make out the numbers in the white part very faintly. Vegas and Resolve handle it fine, it shows exactly the same as the PNG's. I noticed the video's have a lot more shadow detail when watching them in Vegas, good to know I can't judge Media Player. What happens if I upload a mov out of the camera straight away to Youtube? Will it be the crushed version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Twigt Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='MaxAperture Films' timestamp='1350999129' post='20162'] I thought moire was evident in shots with the Voigtlander footage above... Has the shooter acknowledge those shots were obtained with the 12-35 rather than the Nokton 25mm? I'd be very glad to stand corrected on this! Edit: John Twigt's Vimeo comments seem to say he did not notice any aliasing in his test shots... perhaps it was just the downscaling used for the side-by-side grading comparisons that gave that appearance in the corrugated metal backdrop. I'm glad to stand corrected on this. [/quote] The moire visible in the side to side shot is definitely not in the original unscaled footage, i checked this in my edit-suite just now and it is not there, all shots in my video were with the voigtlander 25mm though. I will post later tonight some shots without any adjustments on vimeo, they will focus on banding and moire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galenb Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='yellow' timestamp='1350941912' post='20136'] You can test if Vegas and Media Player Classic handle the GH3 / Canon MOV's correctly with the test files in this zip: [url="http://www.yellowspace.webspace.virginmedia.com/fullrangetest.zip"]http://www.yellowspa...llrangetest.zip[/url] If you import the 16-235_flagon.mp4 into Vegas and/or Media Player Classic as long as you see the 16 & 235 text rather than just white and black horizontal bars then the GH3 / Canon MOV's are getting handled correctly and contrast should be correct, shadows will appear less crushed, highlights will appear less blown, depending on decent exposure at time of shooting. I've created MOV's and mp4's which both contain identical h264 streams but found the MOV's can crash some apps so created mp4's as well. The 16 - 235 in the file name relates to the text, not the luma levels within the file confusingly, they are encoded full luma range. The 16 text should be RGB value 16 and the 235 text should be RGB value 235 when checked with a pipet / color sampling tool. [/quote] I'm on a Mac running Mountain Lion and I see everything fine in QuicktimeX, Quicktime 7 and Premiere Pro 6. I just tested it out and everything looks fine. Apparently they fixed the gamma bug in Mountain Lion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Lots of people, outdoors. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTIV0xXQa8A[/media] 1080p25, 1/50 fps Original footage, unedited. Panasonic 12-35mm f/2.8 X Auto White Balance Inside footage max. iso 1600 Outside footage everything iso 200 Aperture stopped down around f/8-11 most of the time Profile: Natural Contrast -5 Sharpness -2 Saturation -5 Noise reduction -5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Julian, gr8 work. This video seems pretty good. I like the colour, and the flat profile. There is a little banding. But, very little, and in few frames. Also, the sharpness is comparable with the GH2. It is evident, when you focus the shot, on the large pictures. The details, the GH2 is famous for, are there. Have you tried shooting, at f4-5.6? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 its from 2:08 to 2:22 seconds (the face profile). Check he details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
see ya Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Julian' timestamp='1351011180' post='20177'] Media Player Classic shows black and white, I can just make out the numbers in the white part very faintly. Vegas and Resolve handle it fine, it shows exactly the same as the PNG's. I noticed the video's have a lot more shadow detail when watching them in Vegas, good to know I can't judge Media Player.[/quote] You can if you tweak Media Player Classics color management options. Same for VLC, which by default doesn't appear to show text. [quote]What happens if I upload a mov out of the camera straight away to Youtube? Will it be the crushed version? [/quote] Will depend on browser I'd imagine, sorry not a very long clip: [media]http://youtu.be/Ttn4t8Up9XU[/media] I never trust viewing in a browser personally and always prefer to download native files and view in a tested media player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='sanveer' timestamp='1351027234' post='20189'] Julian, gr8 work. This video seems pretty good. I like the colour, and the flat profile. There is a little banding. But, very little, and in few frames. Also, the sharpness is comparable with the GH2. It is evident, when you focus the shot, on the large pictures. The details, the GH2 is famous for, are there. Have you tried shooting, at f4-5.6? [/quote] Thanks! The sharpness is fine indeed. At -5 it is a bit soft, so that's why I shot at -2. No sharpening artefacts but the detail is there. Some shots are around f/5.6 or maybe even lower. But I had to go for smaller apertures since I have no ND filter in my kit right now. I don't think it would make much of a difference though, at f/4-5.6 the lens is probably even sharper because diffraction kicks in pretty soon on micro four thirds. The shot from 2:08 to 2:22 might be a bit misleading, since it's a huge blow-up or a photograph. So maybe there's banding in the print ;) And the YouTube compression doesn't help. Here's a screengrab (view at full resolution): [url="http://www.eoshd.com/comments/gallery/image/129-gh3-screen-grab/"][img]http://www.eoshd.com/comments/uploads/gallery/album_16/gallery_20742_16_771748.png[/img][/url] @yellow: your clip shows black and white here. Isn't it more likely that it is because of the way YouTube processes it? They re compress the files... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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