Sony drop a bombshell with 4K raw, 180fps and global shutter - here are the Sony F5 and F55!

[markm]

[quote name='FilmMan' timestamp='1351643009' post='20671']
I'm taking a different road now till proven differently.
Logic. Sony gives 4K with the FS700 but you need a specific recorder, which costs more money. The FS700's 1080p footage isn't as good as the F3. Therefore protecting the F3 market.
Big f'n announcement. People are pumped. Sure the specs look great and the sheep get excited. Talk of very positive pricing. Yet no official pricing from this leading company on the debut day!!! Sony could give a very attractive price but remember they are in the business to make money. Don't fool yourselves folks. Till we see the actual pricing, I'm staying negative neutral - if that positively makes sense? Why no official pricing??? Perhaps they are gathering their intel and deciding how much they can squeeze out of the lemons?
Cheers.
[/quote]
Yep I agree. Sony are waiting to see the reaction. Why should the technology cost £15000 anyway. Your basicly paying £10,000 for a 4K sensor if you allow £5000 for the rest of the bells and whistles and I think I'm being over generous. But then canon have done the same with the way overpriced C300

I guess the point is some of us in the indie market might stretch to £15000 if it was a one off future proofed (5-10 years) investment and priced fairly.
This camera is I think really aimed at bottomless pockets and the commercial/corporate market. I don't see it being a threat to an Alexa or those aspiring to make feature films.
After years of Sony and others pushing overpriced cameras then pushing with slight incremental improverments every few years we now have new players and things will only get worse for them as China begins to make its mark.
Sony could have come out with a common sense camera IE decent sensor 10 bit 4.2.2 out and raw recording with ND filters at about £5000 So could panasonic who would have found it easy to update the af100 sensor.
I would say Sony Canon and Panasonic are going to lose big time in their profit margins. Companies like Black Magic are going to become the new players Maybe Red too if they can get their prices down.

In order to help the big players get their acts together then they should follow my advice on this is how the large sensor market should look for todays consumers.
£1000 - 3000
Cameras for consumers IE 4K 2K etc heavily encoded with 8 bit uncompressed out.

£3500 - 80000
2K Cameras with decent sensors 50 - 100mb recording with 10 bit 4.2.2 and raw out.

£10,000 - 15000
4K - 2K Cameras with on board recording for all including raw

£20,000 - £50,000
Cutting edge sensors and technology for theatrical use. IE 8K Global aperture 15 stops and 16bit 4.4.4.

Now go away and get your houses in order.

[TC]

[quote name='ScreensPro' timestamp='1351610310' post='20621']
Based on what? On paper (and judging by the F65 footage), the Sony F55 will beat RED on DR, low light, colour rendition, will have a higher native ISO, high FPS, better codec choices and has a CCD sensor. The only tick RED has left is 5K output and the F65 just trumped that with 8K.
[/quote]

But you are comparing Sony's 2013 camera with Red's 2010 camera. If you buy an Epic now, you get a free upgrade to Dragon, which will ship in early 2013 as well. And Dragon boasts 15+ stops of dynamic range and 6k resolution, which comfortably beats Sony. That is what I base my statement on.

[TC]

[quote name='ScreensPro' timestamp='1351610310' post='20621']
Sony are currently ahead of RED in every aspect, with the excepetion of personal choice aspects, eg, ergonomics, customer service etc and possibly price, when the dust settles.
[/quote]

Are Sony offering F3 owners a $6,000 sensor and electronics upgrade to bring their camera to F5 specs? No, they are not. Red offer that for Epic owners. Will Sony offer a free upgrade for people who buy an F3 now? No they won't.

[lightpainter]

F55.....
no time to watch any boyracerblabal...
in this $$$range it is mine.
so back to creativity... see us next 2014

[FilmMan]

[quote name='markm' timestamp='1351679201' post='20696']
Yep I agree. Sony are waiting to see the reaction. Why should the technology cost £15000 anyway. Your basicly paying £10,000 for a 4K sensor if you allow £5000 for the rest of the bells and whistles and I think I'm being over generous. But then canon have done the same with the way overpriced C300

I guess the point is some of us in the indie market might stretch to £15000 if it was a one off future proofed (5-10 years) investment and priced fairly.
This camera is I think really aimed at bottomless pockets and the commercial/corporate market. I don't see it being a threat to an Alexa or those aspiring to make feature films.
After years of Sony and others pushing overpriced cameras then pushing with slight incremental improverments every few years we now have new players and things will only get worse for them as China begins to make its mark.
Sony could have come out with a common sense camera IE decent sensor 10 bit 4.2.2 out and raw recording with ND filters at about £5000 So could panasonic who would have found it easy to update the af100 sensor.
I would say Sony Canon and Panasonic are going to lose big time in their profit margins. Companies like Black Magic are going to become the new players Maybe Red too if they can get their prices down.

In order to help the big players get their acts together then they should follow my advice on this is how the large sensor market should look for todays consumers.
£1000 - 3000
Cameras for consumers IE 4K 2K etc heavily encoded with 8 bit uncompressed out.

£3500 - 80000
2K Cameras with decent sensors 50 - 100mb recording with 10 bit 4.2.2 and raw out.

£10,000 - 15000
4K - 2K Cameras with on board recording for all including raw

£20,000 - £50,000
Cutting edge sensors and technology for theatrical use. IE 8K Global aperture 15 stops and 16bit 4.4.4.

Now go away and get your houses in order.
[/quote]

Yep.

Electronics have improved. Computing power has increased immensely and prices have come down. This is reality. People seem to be on the mindset, they have to pay a huge premium because big companies say so. Sure cameras cost money. But how much do the internals actual cost? Of course companies are going to paint the picture of huge development costs. However in Sony's case they had the technology for many, many years! With today's technology, 422, 10 bit, 80 to 100 mbp/s at 2K should be offered for the low end cameras. Hero 3, a $400 camera is giving almost 4K, and is giving 2K - so you'd think for $3500 this could be given on a video camera or DSLR? BMC is changing things. And Digital Bolex seems to be coming on too. Cheers.

[ScreensPro]

[quote name='TC' timestamp='1351683606' post='20700']
And Dragon boasts 15+ stops of dynamic range and 6k resolution, which comfortably beats Sony. That is what I base my statement on.
[/quote]

Yea, the RED-One-M [i]boasted[/i] 12 stops and was measured around 9-10. RED boasts, it's what they do.

Sony WILL hit 14 stops.

Regarding your point... Sony is newer technology, yes, and better technology... It is nothing for RED to be ashamed of, just the nature of the beast.

As for RED being super generous, great amazing guys. Yea, they have made some cool moves, but, sensor upgrades aside (and probably expensive new SSDs, modules etc to work with the sensor).... Those days are over. They have just as many ways to squeze you for a $ as Sony or anyone else.

And to note.... I am saving my money for a high end camera and RED may well get my $$$s.... I couldn't care less about the logo on the side, or the business choices they make... As long as what is important to me is there, I will buy.

[schnorgie]

I caught myself almost bemoaning the fact that I had just bought a 5d3, until I realized......[i][b]wait a minute[/b].[/i] There is no way on God's green earth that I can afford a $15,000 camera, plus the adaptor, plus the media, plus, plus, plus, $, $, $. And as much as I wish I could be another Stanley Kubrick, let's face it. I am almost entirely a "run and gun" guy. I almost [i]never[/i] have the luxury of "setting up a shot". It's there, I try to get it, and I move on. I have no time and no budget for most of the stuff I do. And what's more, there is no way I could have shot even what I shot yesterday, with a larger camera. Most times, I wish I had a[i] smaller[/i] camera (I'd be thinking about a GH3, if I didn't already have such a big investment in Canon L glass)....

One thing I really like about using a DSLR to shoot video.....it kind of [i]defines[/i] the medium. It puts a real limitation on what you can and can't do. There is no budget. All my work is posted on Vimeo, not shown on TV, much less projected on a 40' screen. I'm just one guy, almost always working without an assistant. It's up to my creativity as a filmmaker and skill as an editor that determines the resulting little movie.

Sure, I'd love to join those exalted ranks that can afford a $15,000 camera (plus, plus, plus). Sure, I'd love to be able to work with lots of 4k files on SSDs, as I do now with CF cards. Realistically, it probably won't happen anytime soon. For now, I'll stick with my DSLRs, which were the tools that allowed a guy like me to get into filmmaking in the first place.......to me that's still the [i]real[/i] revolution and game-changer.

www.wildheartpictures.com

[basschicago]

Slightly off topic, but I wonder if it's too late in the game for Panasonic to implement global shutter on the GH3, I'm just saying...

[Germy1979]

[quote name='basschicago' timestamp='1351712438' post='20729']
Slightly off topic, but I wonder if it's too late in the game for Panasonic to implement global shutter on the GH3, I'm just saying...
[/quote]

Lol... Probably.

[Germy1979]

So quick question.. If Sony is going to continue selling the F3, why is it listed as discontinued? Bad communication? .. I'd love to get my hands on S-Log.

[sanveer]

[quote name='basschicago' timestamp='1351712438' post='20729']
Slightly off topic, but I wonder if it's too late in the game for Panasonic to implement global shutter on the GH3, I'm just saying...
[/quote]

Contrary to how it sounds, global shutter has go to do with the sensors ability to read data out, at certain speeds. For the GH3 to have Global Shutter, they will have to have a New sensor.

And, no, a software update would not solve the issue.

[zephyrnoid]

[quote name='peederj' timestamp='1351577974' post='20581']
We learned with the Scarlet vs. C300 price comparisons that the only thing worth comparing pricewise is [b]total cost of ownership[/b].

Sure the camera body may cost $15K but what good does that do you if you need another $20K of proprietary add ons to shoot at the quoted specs and media costs $40/minute at those specs.

I'm sure when you have the proper info you will go over TCO for each attractive camera option in practice.
[/quote]

Absolutely! And let's not foget. There is no sane Professional Video without a duplicate camera or a close B at the very least. So let's get real folks. No one contemplating an upgrade from a 'high end DSLR' is going to get in at the base sticker for the basic package alone. And as peederj so astutely notes, apart from the TCO, you have gargantuan captures to archive that will result in a completely different budget for editing than garden variety HD or even 2K.
So let's keep dreaming of a sub $5,000 pricepoint for this stuff OK ? In about 5 years we'll be there. For now.... there's always rental !

[Aggrotron]

[quote name='zephyrnoid' timestamp='1351739090' post='20746']there's always rental !
[/quote]

Came to post this. There's no way I'm getting that anytime soon, but it'll probably be the camera that I'd recommend for rental. The whole simultaneous recording feature is pretty bloody convenient IMO.

[FilmMan]

More camera[size=6][b]s[/b][/size] coming... ;)

[ELEV8DMIND]

you mention the camera is half the price of the Epic - which is incorrect... The F55 which is '4k' ready is $50,000. Epic is about be significantly dropped from $25,000. The F5 may be $15,000, but you'll need to spend another 10k for an external recorder in order for it to be '4k' ready.

funny how people get excited about 4k now- no one's even seen any images from either of these cameras, expect them to be as disappointing as the F65.

[sanveer]

this 2k, 4k and now 8k resolution, is a never ending race. Its just cheap capitalism. It would be good, if 4k cameras and workflow was (monetarily) manageable for India Filmmakers. Since Panasonic already showcased an 8k TV, this year, we should start having 8k recording cameras, for films, in the next 2-3 years.

[TC]

[quote name='ScreensPro' timestamp='1351706756' post='20718']
Yea, the RED-One-M [i]boasted[/i] 12 stops and was measured around 9-10. RED boasts, it's what they do.
[/quote]

Haha, true, they are not exactly modest at RED. But maybe it will soon be time for us to stop discussing the finer points of one camera over another - I suspect both the F55 and the Dragon sensor will be so good you won't be able to tell the difference in any practical situation. Any deficiencies will be purely the fault of the user.

[galenb]

[quote name='elev8dmind' timestamp='1351749709' post='20761']
you mention the camera is half the price of the Epic - which is incorrect... The F55 which is '4k' ready is $50,000. Epic is about be significantly dropped from $25,000. The F5 may be $15,000, but you'll need to spend another 10k for an external recorder in order for it to be '4k' ready.

funny how people get excited about 4k now- no one's even seen any images from either of these cameras, expect them to be as disappointing as the F65.
[/quote]

$50k for the F55? Where are you getting those prices? I've read all around the internet and especially the live chat that Sony did the day they announced them. One of the main things I took away from this is that Sony have specifically avoided announcing prices until the launch day event. A few people who are supposedly in the know, have all been quoted as saying $15k for the F5 and $25K for the F55. No one has mentioned a price for the recorder that I've seen.

Also, I don't think RED are going to drop their prices. I don't have anything to back this up but I think they just said that as a reaction to not knowing what Sony had up their sleeves. Now that they see that the rumored prices are in line with their current prices, I'm sure they will hold steady. Besides, you can get a 4K Scarlet with SSD and reader, two batteries and LCD for about $16k. I'm sure that sounds competitive enough to them.

Please feel free to correct me with a link or two.

[Bruno]

[quote name='TC' timestamp='1351683606' post='20700']
That is what I base my statement on.
[/quote]

So you base your statement on something that doesn't exist, RED people would be proud of you.

[haarec]

[quote name='basschicago' timestamp='1351712438' post='20729']
Slightly off topic, but I wonder if it's too late in the game for Panasonic to implement global shutter on the GH3, I'm just saying...
[/quote]
[quote name='FilmMan' timestamp='1351744189' post='20753']
More camera[size=6][b]s[/b][/size] coming... ;)
[/quote]

Yea, the question is do we still like 8bit-4:2:0-moiré-2K-camera. Isn't it a year too late for GH3...