FilmMan Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 BMC what is the number...10000? How many waiting in the wings? How many GH2 people? How many 5D2/5D3 holders? How many Red holders? You'd be surprised how many would jump on the bandwagon...And so on. I'm not arguing about the 1DC - it is an incredible camera. There are pricing risks going forward. Alot of competition will be entering the scene. How about the "company" which is working on their 4K "dslr type" and may show it at NAB 2013? Has competition entered in the 5D3 space? Yep. Pricing will change as more 4K competition arrive. Canon won't be the only fish in the sea. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted November 22, 2012 Administrators Share Posted November 22, 2012 DSLRs are not a niche. It is the mass market sales Canon should be more worried about. Since they chose to focus purely on photographers rather than videographers with their DSLRs and try to move the videographers up several price brackets, their bread & butter business holds very little appeal to me and many others. The film industry is changing, there's a lot of shooters out there working as freelance owner operators or as a small production team, and they're doing a good job and taking away business from established pros. The market for DSLR video is growing. You can't forget about the 1D X for even a minute. It is essential to the point I'm trying to make about the 1D C. You say the 1D C is produced in small volumes for a niche - hang on - all the major components (and most of the minor ones too, indeed 95% of the hardware) is mass produced in 1D X+ sized quantities. The 1D X is produced in huge quantities in comparison to any indie filmmaking tool. Canon are addicted to 'added value', 'segmenting the market' and other bullshit business strategies from a text book and they have severely taking their eye off the product itself... In my opinion. What I recommend is to get the 1D C on a finance deal and shoot 4K stock footage. A lot of demand for it. The camera will pay for itself. Which is just as well. Remember, my perspective is of an artist not a businessman. I want these tools to change the world and to enable masses of creativity. I am not interested in the mechanics and the process of a quick turnaround for a client. The C300 is perfect for that, but it doesn't interest me. Image quality does. Which is why I am no longer a Canon DSLR shooter when it comes to my cinema work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted November 22, 2012 Administrators Share Posted November 22, 2012 [quote name='FilmMan' timestamp='1353617686' post='22139'] BMC what is the number...10000? How many waiting in the wings? How many GH2 people? How many 5D2/5D3 holders? How many Red holders? You'd be surprised how many would jump on the bandwagon...And so on. I'm not arguing about the 1DC - it is an incredible camera. There are pricing risks going forward. Alot of competition will be entering the scene. How about the "company" which is working on their 4K "dslr type" and may show it at NAB 2013? Has competition entered in the 5D3 space? Yep. Pricing will change as more 4K competition arrive. Canon won't be the only fish in the sea. Cheers. [/quote] DSLRs sell in quantities of millions. I find it hard to believe that only 20,000 of those millions are interested in the video mode. The market for DSLR video has a lot of different sub-sections - some point & shoot, some casual hobbyists, some students, some pros, some artists, some tourists, some... You get the idea. But as a whole, the need for Canon to keep pushing the feature-set and image quality at consumer price points is huge. So why haven't they done so? Because somebody at the top level (or somebody possibly poorly advised) is more interested in making huge margins on Cinema EOS products in the broadcast industry, which is a tiny niche compared to the consumer DSLR market, and somehow they think it is OK to halt any progress in the large market for the sake of concentrating on the Hollywood niche. It is not just DSLR video people that Canon aren't providing enough progress for - think of the poor photographers who have not seen a step forward in image quality from their APS-C sensors since the 7D 3 years ago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richg101 Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 anyone who thinks BM will follow up with such a cheap offer on their next camera will be sorely let down. I recon the BMCC pricing could make BM really struggle in the future when people complain about the price of their update that will actually need to make them money. I seriously doubt BM are earning enough profit from sales of their camera to make it economically viable. the sums don't add up. and their manufacturing facilities won't be able to cope with the demand. they'll have to go to china and then get ripped off due to not having the size or power to maintain security by running the plant themselves 100%. just takes 1 clever chinese floor manager to rip them off and ruin them. without the might that Sony and Canon have they wouldnt be able to stop a copycat product. BMCC inaccurate pricing has created a false sense of value for money which will affect the profits and technological output of all other companies. a canon 1DC will bring in a lot more paid work than the BMCC will. the price structure reflects this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted November 22, 2012 Administrators Share Posted November 22, 2012 Well Rich there's two sides to this, and maybe you are right. One possibility is that Blackmagic want to grab a share of the digital cinema market. Best way to do this is the pricing. Even though BMCC is really as good as a $15,000 camera, had they priced to match Canon they would have lost. At $3000, they are positioned to grab a share. It could be that the benefits of establishing themselves, giving themselves a foothold in the market were larger than the money they'd lose on the cameras. The other possibility is that electronics are getting cheap to produce, and Blackmagic already make a profit on their Hyper Deck Shuttle which is extremely keenly priced - that tells you that the image processing hardware to encode an uncompressed signal to ProRes is now affordable to produce in 2012. They may be aiming for the mass market in great quantities. If that is the case, a slim margin on the camera doesn't matter so much. I honestly would take the view that you can build this camera for $3000 and make a profit and I'd say the mark up on the other digital cinema cameras is insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 When I was referring to Niche market, referring to BMC. It is a segment that BMC is grabbing potentially from the dslr sales. DSLR sales are huge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiong Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 I would have to agree, the times are changing, out with the old and in with the new. Its just more efficient for me to get a BMCC and upgrade my workflow, if im guna work in 4K, why limit myself to an 8-bit h.264 compression codec? Of course this is coming from some one that wants to make films. The BMCC is like an entry level to profession work, hence the baby alexa nickname. It gets you ready for when you want to move on to a RED, because the work flow seems very similar. In my opinion, why go backwards? Wouldnt it be more valuable to understand RAW workflow better then going back to 8-bit? Let alone one that is 12K. Thats alot to spend, get a BMCC then just upgrade my computer, add a few SSD's and HDD for storage. Seems alot cheaper then jumping right into a 12K camera, not to mention its more future proof. Im on the boat of RAW is the future, 8-bit compression will be the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted November 23, 2012 Administrators Share Posted November 23, 2012 [quote name='ScreensPro' timestamp='1353611092' post='22132'] Because they choose to comprimise in other areas.... your good specs (and mine, incidentally) are another man's "why bother with such a smaller sensor?". Your "great, it takes SSDs" are another man's "damn, SD cards are so much cheaper, lighter and i have 10 already". Under $10k, you will comprmise, for now at least.[/quote] I'm sorry, but WTF! How in any way is an SSD a compromise. SD cards are yesterday's technology, painfully slow and low capacity. Good luck getting that 1D C 4K footage off your compact flash in a hurry. The sensor is NOT SMALL. It sits in the upper-middle of the film stock range. Much larger than 16mm, larger than Super 16mm and smaller than Super 35mm. I am interested in the image and it is anything but compromised. I'll tell you what IS a compromise. Line skipping to get an image of a photographic sensor. Compressing your colour with LOG. Compressing your entire image with MPEG or H.264. Wreaking your colour with 8bit and your motion with long-GOP. Being unable to adjust the ISO or the white balance properly in post. Having a focus plane the size of a grain of sand in low light on a full frame sensor & fast aperture. All but one of these apply to even the $12,000 1D C. Canon is over for me. Sony on their way out. Panasonic in their by virtue of one camera. All must try harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Sony & Panasonic have just had their credit rating dropped to "JUNK" status. This rating drop means that both companies will default on their debt - hmmmm! We already knew that Sony were in trouble, hence their numerous camera releases, amongst other things, but they haven't proved very exciting - the drip feed release of tech might have to be re-evaluated. It'll be interesting to see what both companies do with the pricing of their new products. Obviously these companies have their fingers in more than one pie, but it certainly leaves the door wide open for new comers to add extra nails in their coffins! If/when BMC gets its act together & no one reacts quickly enough, it'll be the end for them - interesting times indeed! Canon & Nikon will always be fine as they are the go to brand names for photography. And before anyone says it, i know plenty of people who bought a 5D MK 2 & have never ever used it to shoot video. Their argument has simply been, "yes the option is there but why would I, its a photography camera not a video camera". The funniest thing is, it was these people that turned me onto DSLRs for video, even though that's not what they use them for. Got the definite feeling that the DSLR has had its time & we're moving back to the dedicated camera for the dedicated job. The BMC is bound to be better than any DSLR because it isn't a hybrid, it does one thing & one thing only - oh, it does it pretty damn good too! So glad i bought a DSLR that takes excellent photos, so when i upgrade to a dedicated video camera i still have an excellent stills camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreensPro Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 [quote name='EOSHD' timestamp='1353649568' post='22166'] I'm sorry, but WTF! How in any way is an SSD a compromise. SD cards are yesterday's technology, painfully slow and low capacity. Good luck getting that 1D C 4K footage off your compact flash in a hurry. [/quote] It's called giving an example, the SD was far fetched, but it is just an example.... I know plenty of people who will not even look at the BMCC, because of the sensor size. I know people who will not look at the BMCC because it will need rigging out and they like to be stealthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leang Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 I always thought the BMCC looked a tad Fisher Price tbh. it's ironic to force an artist to only shop at Walmart. so the BMCC is a Bill Gates action figure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 Why 4K video on a DSLR? Could it appeal to the masses? You betcha! On a photography perspective, soccor mom is at her kid's game. Rather than try to take a snap shot, she could take some video shots, then screen grab a photo. Laforet talks extensively about this aspect periodically. Example: [url="http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2011/06/07/what-camera-did-i-use-to-make-this-still-picture/"]http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2011/06/07/what-camera-did-i-use-to-make-this-still-picture/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 Another example: [url="http://fstoppers.com/hasselblad-vs-red"]http://fstoppers.com/hasselblad-vs-red[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lafilm Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Shipping on December 26th [url="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/855962-REG/Canon_EOS_1D_C_EOS_1D_C_4K_Cinema.html"]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/855962-REG/Canon_EOS_1D_C_EOS_1D_C_4K_Cinema.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameraboy Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 forget about cheap CF cards for 1DC...it runs @500 mbps (4GB per minute)...Shane Hurlbut recomended this card ...[url="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/841569-REG/Lexar_LCF128CTBNA1000_128GB_CompactFlash_Memory_Card.html"]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/841569-REG/Lexar_LCF128CTBNA1000_128GB_CompactFlash_Memory_Card.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted December 2, 2012 Author Share Posted December 2, 2012 cameraboy, Pricing of the cards have been varying. In early September, a 2 pack of 32 GB were on sale for $238. Then they went up to $243. Now they are priced at $379.50 for the 2 pack! [url="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/841573-REG/Lexar_LCF32GCTBNA10002_32GB_CompactFlash_Memory_Card.html"]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/841573-REG/Lexar_LCF32GCTBNA10002_32GB_CompactFlash_Memory_Card.html[/url] Pricing has increased. That will most likely change as Christmas nears or shortly in the New Year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted December 2, 2012 Author Share Posted December 2, 2012 Here's a link for a 2 pack of 32 GB for $239.95 from Buydig. [url="http://www.buydig.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=LXLCF32GCTBNA10002&ref=pricegrabber&omid=122&CAWELAID=1614820088"]http://www.buydig.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=LXLCF32GCTBNA10002&ref=pricegrabber&omid=122&CAWELAID=1614820088[/url] Will still be a cost for CF cards nevertheless. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameraboy Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 cameraboy, Pricing of the cards have been varying. In early September, a 2 pack of 32 GB were on sale for $238. Then they went up to $243. Now they are priced at $379.50 for the 2 pack! [url="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/841573-REG/Lexar_LCF32GCTBNA10002_32GB_CompactFlash_Memory_Card.html"]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/841573-REG/Lexar_LCF32GCTBNA10002_32GB_CompactFlash_Memory_Card.html[/url] Pricing has increased. That will most likely change as Christmas nears or shortly in the New Year. thats only 16 min of footage for that kind of money u can buy 512Gb ssd ...my point is that u cant use cheap CF for 1DC.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted December 2, 2012 Author Share Posted December 2, 2012 Cameraboy, I agree with you totally. I was only pointing out that a person could find some cheaper pricing for the CF cards (which still will be costly nevertheless). Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameraboy Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 price will definitely go lower for fast CF cards because theres lot of high MP cameras (d800 , 5d3 )... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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