FilmMan Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 [color=rgb(178,34,34);]OK. This is the final frontier.[/color] [color=rgb(0,0,255);]The RED Dragon sensor needs to be directly compared to 65mm film.[/color] [color=rgb(178,34,34);]The Dragon has more resolution than 65mm film when scanned at 4K. The Dragon has more dynamic range than film... by a lot. 65mm film has about 14.5 stops. The Dragon has an easy 16 stops... without sweating. The EPIC Dragon will shoot nearly 100fps. 65mm film cameras... not so much. Cost to shoot the RED Dragon vs. 65mm film... ridiculously not close. Dragon should never be compared to 35mm film. It should only be spoken in reference to 65mm film from here on out. So you own an EPIC? You upgrade. Have a nice day.... Jim[/color] Sample footage soon. Be prepared to be completely blown away. Times a million. Jim [color=rgb(0,128,0);]Of course it makes sense that we will upgrade EPICs to the Dragon sensor before Scarlets. However, we are considering how to upgrade Scarlets to the Dragon. There are several boards that need to be changed so the upgrade for Scarlet may be a bit more expensive than the upgrade to EPIC.. We are always thinking about our customers... just so you know. Jim[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 That was a bit obnoxious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 Jim is really starting to talk alot! If RED does come out with this sensor in the next bit, it could have a domino effect on camera prices - going south! Come on RED, show us!!! Yea! [color=rgb(255,0,0);]It all starts with the sensor… How is it that RED could enter the cinema camera market 7 years ago and now about 50% of the released features are "Shot on RED"? How is it that Canon owned the professional stills market 3 years ago and now Nikon is handing them their @ss? How did Arri convert all the old-school film guys to the Alexa? Sensors, baby. Sensors. Apparently Canon is married to old sensor fab technology. The Nikon D800 scores 95 on the DXO sensor scale. The brand new Canon 5D MKIII… 82. Really? That can't be good. Arri has a great sensor program… although a bit down on resolution from our point of view. :-) Enter the RED Dragon. This is sensor technology that makes all the big guys want to put on their helmets. So how did Canon get so lost? Who are the camera companies that recognize that sensors are 90+% of a digital camera? Who is investing in sensor technology? In order... RED Arri Sony the rest… Of course there are other factors that matter in this highly competitive and fast changing market. Who will upgrade the sensor in your existing camera instead of making you buy a new camera? No matter what your answers are to these questions… it is all coming down to who has the best sensor program. Sensors matter. Side note... film is officially dead. Jim[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 Zach, It's marketing and perhaps the truth or partial truths or slightly stretched truths??? ... I'm hoping the dragon lives up to what Jim is boasting. It could change the camera frontier in a big swoop. 16 STOPS!!! - it could be bullshit or it could be the truth. Zach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirk Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Here we go again.... sigh :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameraboy Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 in RED world 16 stops probably means little more than 14 ...not bad ...but better than 65mm .. hm ...let me see a colors first ... nevertheless more competition is better for us , costomers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I've yet to see anything match 65 for colour reproduction. Of course film does so much of the look itself while this crazy flat 16-stop raw will need hella treatment to get there. Interesting, but this is so hypey I didn't lose my shit, I just thought "here we go again". I'm glad the phrase "game changer" wasn't used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy lee Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I like the way he says you are not allowed to compare it to 35mm film from now on ........Sowing the seeds and setting the tone ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted December 5, 2012 Administrators Share Posted December 5, 2012 I actually think Jim is spot on here, and Dragon looks amazing. That part is such an important differentiating factor in a camera. If you want to see something stupid look at Sony. They gave their best sensor technology to Nikon (D800) and put a lousy moire riddled 24MP chip in their OWN camera (A99, VG900) which isn't as good on the stills side either. It is like they wanted to lose? Canon on the other hand will develop one truly good sensor every 3 years and try to shoehorn it into 10 different products to make as much money as possible. Incredibly boring. Jim is also correct in his reference to Canon's fabrication process - it is old by modern semiconductor standards. Panasonic and Olympus seem happy meanwhile to be also-rans and buy Sony sensors, this despite the fact Panasonic had a cutting edge CMOS program of their own. Baffling. How can they ever hope to overcome Canon, Nikon and Sony if they can't out perform them on image quality? Fuji innovate on the sensor side - but sadly not on the business side. They had the chance to replace their film stock with a digital equivalent and didn't. Happy to let their cinema business die along with Kodak. Again - baffling. The Germans have it right. Leica with CMOSIS and Arri. The Japanese don't seem to have a clue at the moment, maybe it is the economy. nahua and andy lee 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy lee Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Red are very good at creating an aura around their products that has ultimately great marketing behind it - like Applethey make new products an eventRed have alot of diehard users like Apple ... Dragon looks like a big step forward for Red - Expect alot of US Movies to be made with it soon!Hollywood likes using Red Cameras . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Why do people fall for the hype.Canon had everyone drooling last year at a NEW change in film making and we got an 8 bit 4.2.2 camera that didnt stop everyone saying this £12000 marvel was better than everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Having said that I've just heard RED are getting into distribution. My next camera might now very well be a RED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy lee Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Red have a very impressive list of Films shot on their Cameras[url="http://www.red.com/shot-on-red/cinema"]http://www.red.com/shot-on-red/cinema[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 New competiting cameras are coming out. Red seems to be upping the ante and is following a strategic game plan. Red fire sales their battle tested MX Cameras. They lower the Scarlet and the Epic prices. In doing so, they have expanded their customer base in relatively short order. From this expanded customer base they have more "potential" upgraders to the Dragon Sensor. Red announces 4K Red Ray and Ode Max in the mix. Hobbit is coming. Jim is tooting his horn with a mega horn. Awesome marketing.[url="http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90306-REDRAY-ODEMAX"]http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90306-REDRAY-ODEMAX[/url] Once the dust settles, we'll know how good this Dragon sensor is and what the costs will be. In the meantime, other camera makers need to respond. Red is challenging the industry. Jim stated publically his thoughts on his competitors - such as Canon. The fight is on. How will other camera manufacturers respond? Better products? More attractive pricing? Sit on their hands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreensPro Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 i like RED products, but.... "RED is more invested in sensor development than ARRI or Sony"? Really, care to share the proof, as ARRI are kicking their ass with current sensors. Sony's F55 has 14 stops with a global shutter.... andy lee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Mantaras Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 i like RED products, but.... "RED is more invested in sensor development than ARRI or Sony"? Really, care to share the proof, as ARRI are kicking their ass with current sensors. Sony's F55 has 14 stops with a global shutter.... Yes, but only 4 years after RED shook the ground. ARRI and Sony didn't act, they reacted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScreensPro Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Yes, but only 4 years after RED shook the ground. ARRI and Sony didn't act, they reacted. You think the RED1-M was a better sensor than the F35? Sony and Arri have been ahead of RED on sensor tech... RED just used resolution as the ultimate goal, whereas ARRI and Sony concentrated on DR, colour, skin tones.... Please note, i'm not discussing prices, fps, raw etc.... Just the sensor tech and Jim Jannard's claim that RED are the most invested. andy lee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 Perhaps RED will take the lead with respect to sensors with this new Dragon. We don't know how robust this sensor truly is. If it is as Jim states, then it kicks ass. Alot of research and development would have taken place to get to the point of Jim's boasts. Video is coming soon. [color=#ff0000;]The Dragon has an easy 16 stops... without sweating.[/color] I hope the "Dragon" is truly as good as Jim is making it out to be. It'll put pricing pressure on the market which should benefit the consumer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 Jim quote: [color=#ff0000;]Sample footage soon. Be prepared to be completely blown away. Times a million.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirk Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 This is beginning to have religious undertones... relax man, you are talking about and heavily promoting a sensor, not peace on earth :blink: Zach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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