Sony A7RII 4k versus NX1 4K

[Frankie]

Kewl, glad to hear you've worked with "professional cameras." So have I  The production company I co-founded owns a RED Dragon, Arri Amira, C300, C100 (I and II) and a GH4. We've shot commercials on the BMCC and the BMCC 4K. And they're all great cameras. Some better than others, depending on their use. But one of my absolute favorite cameras to work with right now is the NX1. That's why this forum / blog exists... to promote the underdog. If you hate the NX1 image... I feel like you haven't actually shot with it, or haven't worked with proper NX1 footage.  Especially if you think the 5D produces a better image.

And I know the difference between "digital sharpness" and resolution. Yes, the camera isn't an Alexa, so it has roughly 11 stops dynamic range (I'd rank it's DR above the 5D). And I think Sony inflates their numbers. 15 isn't realistic... it's noisy in those shadows. It's closer to 12.5 in my testings. And the extra stop of dynamic range is nice, but not at the expense of skin tones. S-LOG has the worst skin tones of any "professional camera" out there (in my "professional" opinion). No thanks. I'll take a REC 709 image from the NX1 any day over S-LOG from the A7R II or the A7S (haven't worked with the A7S II S-LOG yet. Assuming it's similar to its predecessor).  

+1 to that mate

[racer5]

the NX1 imo has a horrible image and I haven't seen even one good narrative done on the camera.

http://youtu.be/ttl-kF8Rbuo

[tellure]

I've been pretty happy with the resolution of my A7RII coming from the HD world, but I don't have a 4K monitor so I've basically been viewing all the footage scaled down 50%.  Today I decided to pull out some screengrabs and I have to say it does look soft at 100% to me.

The screengrab this was taken from was shot with the Sony / Zeiss 24mm 1.8 APS-C lens in Super35 mode (effective focal length 35mm).  Don't recall the exact settings from this shot but I think it was 1/60 at 25p.  4K 100Mbps of course. Some of the traffic was moving of so I was looking mainly at static elements like the "Speed Limit 45" sign in the crop, which looks quite soft to me.  And it's fairly close to the center of the frame too so I'm guessing it's not corner softness.  The "End Road Work" sign next to it is even worse.  Maybe XAVCS 100Mbps is still too high compression / low bitrate to keep up with the fidelity needed for 4K?

Sharpening these in Photoshop as a test does improve things, but it does feel like it should be sharper out of the box.

Incidentally, when I first attached these images they looked worse on the site than the jpg's did on my computer.. I suspect the forum software applies some pretty aggressive compression to keep attachments small.  So I put them on a server and linked to the jpg's directly, which preserved the same image quality I'm seeing.

 

[Dean]

I'm no pro, but I totally agree with the OP. I've had my A7Rii for a week or so now and shot some 4k on the weekend in APS-C mode with mainly the 55/1.8. Used everything from modified Slog2 setting and PP6 setting as well as standard and Neutral settings. 

I pulled up some of my past NX1 footage and the difference is just incredible IMO. The NX1's footage looks so much more detailed and pops off of the screen. Colours are natural and easy grade lightly if you want or super easy to make look natural and life-like (mainly used Gamma DR, Contrast -5, Master Black Level +10, sharpness 0 on most of the NX1 footage).

The A7Rii's footage to me looks really bland, muddy and severely lacking that 4k pop. The colours from the Sony in any setting just look really weird and shitty to me .. especially Slog2 which seems a complete waste of time unless you are a pro who knows how to colour correct properly ... and even then it seems a totally waste of a Pro's time.

Viewing both on a 5k iMac that's been calibrated. 

I thought the A7Rii would be a be-all stills and video camera for me but I was pretty mistaken. I find the whole Sony experience just so slow an clunky compared to my Nikon or an NX1 and just not ergonomically friendly at all. Little things like having to press the C3 button instead of the centre button to magnify (then waiting 10 mins) are frustrating as is the LCD dimming as soon as you press record (which is in a weird spot as well) among other things.  I have mine up for sale. Some people may love it and it's down to personal taste, but the whole Sony experience was not a good one for me. Not a fan at all.

D750 for stills and an NX1 for 4k =  

 

Edit - I'll keep the RX100iv though ... cool little cam. And for some reason shooting Slog on this with FilmConvert seems to work well. The Slo-mo is heaps of fun as well.

 

[Andrew Reid]

I thought the A7Rii would be a be-all stills and video camera for me but I was pretty mistaken. I find the whole Sony experience just so slow an clunky compared to my Nikon or an NX1 and just not ergonomically friendly at all. Little things like having to press the C3 button instead of the centre button to magnify (then waiting 10 mins) are frustrating as is the LCD dimming as soon as you press record (which is in a weird spot as well) among other things.  I have mine up for sale. Some people may love it and it's down to personal taste, but the whole Sony experience was not a good one for me. Not a fan at all.

You can assign magnify to the centre button using custom keys in the main menu.

They do indeed have work to do on ergonomics though. Samsung got it surprisingly right with the NX1, a few quirks aside.

[Dean]

You can assign magnify to the centre button using custom keys in the main menu.

They do indeed have work to do on ergonomics though. Samsung got it surprisingly right with the NX1, a few quirks aside.

Was too vague in my post, but I meant you can't assign the centre button when in stills preview mode. Pretty sure this can't be done. The Nx1 in stills mode actually has a pretty neat feature where by after a stills shot has been taken it instantly shows you the magnified result and zooms in on where the focus point was.

I was probably a bit harsh on the A7Rii and maybe spending more time with it would help. The stills it produces with lenses like the 55/1.8 are amazing but am underwhelmed with it's 4K after comparing it to an NX1. 

I'd love to see Sony release a slightly bigger FE camera more in the shape & size of an NX1 or a GH4 ... better battery, better ergonomics, much faster processor, less heat and what ever other improvements a larger camera could bring. I think this would be a very popular camera with many people especially pros. 

[kidzrevil]

NX1 has less dynamic range + poor iso performance. These cameras are very different, NX1 definitely has more detail, GH4 probably even more, the thing is this doesn't translate to a "nice" image.....

 

GH4 razor sharp, which makes it look like artificial "sharpened" video that's great for News broadcast, I would say the NX1 is in the same vein as the GH4.

 

A7 cameras by Sony are more in vein with Canon 5D's, more sharper than 5D but not as "cynical" sharp as NX1 and GH4. Personally I still like the 5D Mark III, great colors and a well accepted image everyone likes. Truth be told I worked on a project shot on RED and the client liked the shots of a 5D Mark III better......

 

Sharpness/Detail is not always your friend........

think you may be mistaken. Have you owned or shot with the NX1 ? Honest question. I have footage I shot with both the GH4 & A7S and they dont come close. They are very detailed but you have to understand the nx1 is 6.5k downscaled to 4k...that's no easy feat...its true resolution not digital sharpening.

Post your 2000+ iso footage......

 

Also I work with professional cameras, NX1 is has nothing similar to RED, SONY, ARRI, PHANTOM, etc.

 

You perceive "digital sharpness" and mistake it for resolution/dynamic range. Personally the NX1 imo has a horrible image and I haven't seen even one good narrative done on the camera. I would rather shoot on a 5D before I pick up and use an NX1.

bro I've seen good narratives on an iPhone 6s and a Canon T3i. If you can't shoot a good narrative on a NX1 thats a personal issue lol. Any camera released at this point could do great work, what I look for more than anything in a camera is the aesthetic quality the lens/sensor combination gives you. Every sensor see's light different and the same goes for the lens...

[j.f.r.]

think you may be mistaken. Have you owned or shot with the NX1 ? Honest question. I have footage I shot with both the GH4 & A7S and they dont come close. They are very detailed but you have to understand the nx1 is 6.5k downscaled to 4k...that's no easy feat...its true resolution not digital sharpening.

bro I've seen good narratives on an iPhone 6s and a Canon T3i. If you can't shoot a good narrative on a NX1 thats a personal issue lol. Any camera released at this point could do great work, what I look for more than anything in a camera is the aesthetic quality the lens/sensor combination gives you. Every sensor see's light different and the same goes for the lens...

http://www.eoshd.com/2015/11/samsung-nx1-officially-dead-samsung-announce-complete-discontinuation-in-europe/

 

The consumers have spoken, live in that "imaginary" NX1  world if you want too............

[Liam]

http://www.eoshd.com/2015/11/samsung-nx1-officially-dead-samsung-announce-complete-discontinuation-in-europe/

 

The consumers have spoken, live in that "imaginary" NX1  world if you want too............

a camera <maybe> "failing" in this market (which there's a thread here devoted to being pissed about it) means that it was a bad product? better cameras have been discontinued.

[blafarm]

I've been pretty happy with the resolution of my A7RII coming from the HD world, but I don't have a 4K monitor so I've basically been viewing all the footage scaled down 50%.

Actually, you've likely been viewing all the footage scaled down by 25%.  

4k is four times the resolution of HD

[Triumph61]

http://www.eoshd.com/2015/11/samsung-nx1-officially-dead-samsung-announce-complete-discontinuation-in-europe/

 

The consumers have spoken, live in that "imaginary" NX1  world if you want too............

Yes, and I hear that Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus and Panasonic collectively sighed,  in huge relief.   :-)    So if you use a NX1 suddenly your work becomes "imaginary"?  lol

[kidzrevil]

http://www.eoshd.com/2015/11/samsung-nx1-officially-dead-samsung-announce-complete-discontinuation-in-europe/

 

The consumers have spoken, live in that "imaginary" NX1  world if you want too............

i honestly dont care bro, brand loyalty is not something I care for. If canon came out with something dope in my budget tommorrow i'd jump ship. Samsung has a nice model camera and I love the aesthetic and what I can do with diffusion filtration on it. So I really dont care if 5 or 5 million people bought it I only care what I can do with it.

so long story short : fuck the consumers

view my work on vimeo.com/kidzrevil

Yes, and I hear that Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus and Panasonic collectively sighed,  in huge relief.   :-)    So if you use a NX1 suddenly your work becomes "imaginary"?  lol

i bet my next check my canon t3i work looks better than whatever the fuck he's shooting with. People that hide behind brand names like this usually have sucky work. Wait till my NX1 footage goes up here

[tellure]

Actually, you've likely been viewing all the footage scaled down by 25%.  

4k is four times the resolution of HD

I'm referring to the % zoom ratios you get in Photoshop or Premiere.  When I look at a 4k framegrab in Photoshop full-screen on my 1900x1200 monitor, Photoshop shows the zoom ratio at 50%.

[mercer]

Any camera released at this point could do great work, what I look for more than anything in a camera is the aesthetic quality the lens/sensor combination gives you. Every sensor see's light different and the same goes for the lens...

Yes. I only use vintage lenses, in fact the newest lenses I own are a set of Minolta MDs from the late 80s/early 90s. When I had my t2i, I could switch lenses to get a desired, in camera look. The same with my eos-m.

With my Sony a5100 (which I'm selling soon if anyone is interested) only certain lenses really looked good in camera... my Minoltas being one of them. Other lenses, technically, looked fine, but the shots needed a little more tweaking in post, which I am still learning.

I noticed this with the Samsung as well, so much that I am selling off a lot of my lenses now (I have way too many) and only keeping a few sets.

How do you like the FD lenses or your NX1? I have/had a nice set, but I didn't love them with my NX500, I felt they favored green colors more, but I don't have any L lenses.

Anyway, good point, and I look forward to seeing your footage. 

[kidzrevil]

Yes. I only use vintage lenses, in fact the newest lenses I own are a set of Minolta MDs from the late 80s/early 90s. When I had my t2i, I could switch lenses to get a desired, in camera look. The same with my eos-m.

With my Sony a5100 (which I'm selling soon if anyone is interested) only certain lenses really looked good in camera... my Minoltas being one of them. Other lenses, technically, looked fine, but the shots needed a little more tweaking in post, which I am still learning.

I noticed this with the Samsung as well, so much that I am selling off a lot of my lenses now (I have way too many) and only keeping a few sets.

How do you like the FD lenses or your NX1? I have/had a nice set, but I didn't love them with my NX500, I felt they favored green colors more, but I don't have any L lenses.

Anyway, good point, and I look forward to seeing your footage. 

the canon fd L lenses are REALLY good, even my 35mm f2 ssc. Stopped down they are incredibly sharp, so much so I had to invest in new diffusion filters specifically to tackle edge sharpening because the NX1 (maybe its the lack of an anti aliasing filter) cuts straight through my pro mist diffusers ! Contrast is great and gives a filmic look but wide open they can be a bit challenging, I gotta be real careful shooting at f1.2. Still not sure if they resolve up to 6k wide open thats why im thinking of investing in some sigma art glass...still on the fence about that ! I'll probably upload something this weekend but im waiting on native support on adobe because I feel like transcoding is robbing us of the actual quality of the footage.

[Don Kotlos]

Yes the NX1 still over sharpens but it also does capture more detail as per the image below.

Has anyone got a A7SII, and can relay how well it focuses without Phase Detect AF?   I assume it crap with adapted lenses and OK with native?

 

 

This is from dpreview:

I hope you can see the differences between resolution/sharpening and why your test was more about the lens than the camera. 

[Andrew Reid]

It's more about the codec actually.

H.265 effectively doubles your bitrate due to 2x greater efficiancy.

70 = 140Mbit/s

The NX1's codec is able to hold onto more detail, where H.264 on the a7R II goes a bit muddy due to compression.

The RX10 II's codec is muddier still, probably due to a cheaper processor.

So in short... definitely more 'real' detail on the NX1 compared to the A7R II and A7S II.

[DBounce]

It's more about the codec actually.

H.265 effectively doubles your bitrate due to 2x greater efficiancy.

70 = 140Mbit/s

The NX1's codec is able to hold onto more detail, where H.264 on the a7R II goes a bit muddy due to compression.

The RX10 II's codec is muddier still, probably due to a cheaper processor.

So in short... definitely more 'real' detail on the NX1 compared to the A7R II and A7S II.

Agreed, in comparison the Alpha line looks soft. 

[sandro]

Imo nx1 could be much improved via a fw update implementing higher bitrates and better encoding algorithm. If I shoot a still at iso 6400 using raw, then apply slight nr and enhance sharpness a little bit in lightroom, then resize it to 8mp (4k like) I get a much, much better image compared to a frame grab from 4k video at iso 6400.

Imagine if they could hack the camera and achieve a more "raw" video quality. We could get a similar quality at 6400 like you did instead of that 1600 usable limit.

[tellure]

Weird, I had the opposite reaction when I saw the NX1 4K framegrabs compared to the A7R2.. the NX1 looked softer and more compressed to me (especially around the grey-on-grey "DPREVIEW" text).  I downloaded the full-size JPG's DPReview provided and did some A/B.. what am I missing here?  Left is A7R2 Super35, right is NX1.. I see more softness and a lot more compression artifacts on the NX1.  These are saved at JPG quality 10 in photoshop and hosted on my own site to avoid re-compression by the forum software BTW.

Here are the playing cards in the upper right..