Aliasing and Moire on the A7Rii Vs A7ii ??

[Dean]

I currently have an A7ii and am thinking of getting an A7Rii. I'm mainly into stills but like doing a bit of video as well and this A7Rii seems to be a great all-rounder.

How is the aliasing and moire on the A7Rii? 

It's pretty horrific on the A7ii ... is it better on the A7Rii?

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

A7II is full of moire. The same level as the 5DII, 6D, D600, D610, A99, A7, type of FF moire (pretty convenient most share a similar Sony 24mp chip)

 

A7RII, is a can of worms. Many many modes and modes within modes. So the answer isn't a clear cut. 

Comparing the most A7II-like type of mode you'll be shooting at, FF UHD, the camera downsamples from the 42mp, and it's softer than 4K with a hint of moire/aliasing. Not A7II level, but not entirely clean either (GH4, 5DIII) 

At s35/APS-C UHD mode, it takes a full readout form the center, giving a siginificantly sharper image, better lowlight performance, and even less moire/aliasing. Still strangely, not 100% free. You'll see it looking 1:1 at the files on the finest of lines, and when it comes up it's rarely moire (colour) but aliasing (jaggies). Nothing to worry about. The FF mode however, has much less rolling shutter so can be used for shoots with camera movement to get less skew at the cost of some resolution loss, lowlight and some more moire. 

 

To compare for reference: 

The A7s, at 1080p FF internal, has absolutely none. The OLPF is designed for the native 4K sensor to remove the frequencies beyond 1080p resolution with a very sophisticated downsample, so it gives a perfect full 1080p image with no aliasing/moire (very C300-like 4K to 2K downsample philosophy so full 1080 sharpness and no aliasing performance)

The A7s 4K HDMI output however, the slight aliasing/moire are present again here and are there on the finest of lines (mostly aliasing and some moire at torture tests). The internal downsample is sophisticated and gets rid of that in HD (Also gets rid of a LOT of noise)

At 60p, at FF mode internal, aliasing and moire start showing. 

At 60p, at s35 mode internal, they are not showing again. 

At s16 crop with clear zoom, no aliasing/moire are present..

 

If one is so sensitive to digital artefacts, (aliasing and moire are SO hated by some DPs I know they go as far as saying it single-andedly destroys any film negative-quality to the footage that might exist, you might be one of them so:

*** The large sensor photography cameras that show absolutely no moire/aliasing in that price bracket are:

 

-A7s FF and s35 1080p internal

-Panasonic GH4 at 4K mode 

-Canon 5D MKIII (H.264 and Raw) 

-Samsung NX1 

-Nikon D750 in FF (shows moire in s35) 

-Nikon D810 in FF and S35

(Video cameras are a different subject but most also don't show aliasing/moire: C100 series, FS series, F3 series, 1'' camcorders, Small chip camcorders, etc)

 

***The ones with plenty of moire: 

 

All large sensor stills cameras outside the above list, but the absolute worst are A7, A7II, A7r, 6D, D600, GH4 in 96p, A7s in 120p, 

 

***The ones with minimal not obvious aliasing/moire (almost no viewer would complain) are 

 

-A7rII at 4K and s35 modes. 

-A7s at 4K, 

-A7sII at 120p crop

-NX1 at 120p mode 

 

This is just an outline, each one of these cameras will perform slightly differently in aliasing/moire and will perform slightly differently at different patterns/scenes. But this is pretty accurate to go by for a general look. 

 

In short, compared to the A7II, you're going to be very happy. Huge jump is video quality and aliasing/moire resistence on the A7rII, but it's not completely free of it. You'll especially be super excited with the s35 4K mode in resolution, lowlight, DR, S-Log3 colours, minimal moire, you'll see a big jump from the A7II. 

I'd personally evaluate it being unnoticeable for anything rather than very demanding applications like 4K theatre projections and even then not noticeable to normal audience. It's a huge step from the A7II league of moire. 

I expect some impressive results from the A7sII in aliasing/moire performance based on the first generation, plus fixing the biggest issue (S-LOG2 colour science, S-Log3 S.Gamut3 looks much better)

 

 

 

 

[richg101]

The A7R2 in aps-c 4k mode is outstanding - clean to 25600iso, little to no nasties at all.  

Full frame is a little ropey but still good IMO, and still way better than what you'll be used to with the a7ii.

I shot all of this in full frame mode on the a7r2 _  https://vimeo.com/142447881   password: scotland

I was shooting with a 24mm f5.6 lens so the iso was usually at around 3200-12800 in some of the lower light scenes.  As you see, the image is good, even on the flawed full frame mode.  As you probably know, the still mode is unreal, and having a full frame 42mpx camera for stills and a camera that shoots flawless 4k in aps-c mode, as well as damn good (if a bit flawed) video in full frame mode is a great package - particularly now it shoots uncompressed raw in stills

 

[Triumph61]

 

If one is so sensitive to digital artefacts, (aliasing and moire are SO hated by some DPs I know they go as far as saying it single-andedly destroys any film negative-quality to the footage that might exist, you might be one of them so:

*** The large sensor photography cameras that show absolutely no moire/aliasing in that price bracket are:

-A7s FF and s35 1080p internal

-Panasonic GH4 at 4K mode 

-Canon 5D MKIII (H.264 and Raw) 

-Samsung NX1 

-Nikon D750 in FF (shows moire in s35) 

-Nikon D810 in FF and S35

 

 

 

My Samsung NX1 definitely show Moire quite often.

[Dean]

A7II is full of moire. The same level as the 5DII, 6D, D600, D610, A99, A7, type of FF moire (pretty convenient most share a similar Sony 24mp chip)

 

A7RII, is a can of worms. Many many modes and modes within modes. So the answer isn't a clear cut. 

Comparing the most A7II-like type of mode you'll be shooting at, FF UHD, the camera downsamples from the 42mp, and it's softer than 4K with a hint of moire/aliasing. Not A7II level, but not entirely clean either (GH4, 5DIII) 

At s35/APS-C UHD mode, it takes a full readout form the center, giving a siginificantly sharper image, better lowlight performance, and even less moire/aliasing. Still strangely, not 100% free. You'll see it looking 1:1 at the files on the finest of lines, and when it comes up it's rarely moire (colour) but aliasing (jaggies). Nothing to worry about. The FF mode however, has much less rolling shutter so can be used for shoots with camera movement to get less skew at the cost of some resolution loss, lowlight and some more moire. 

 

To compare for reference: 

The A7s, at 1080p FF internal, has absolutely none. The OLPF is designed for the native 4K sensor to remove the frequencies beyond 1080p resolution with a very sophisticated downsample, so it gives a perfect full 1080p image with no aliasing/moire (very C300-like 4K to 2K downsample philosophy so full 1080 sharpness and no aliasing performance)

The A7s 4K HDMI output however, the slight aliasing/moire are present again here and are there on the finest of lines (mostly aliasing and some moire at torture tests). The internal downsample is sophisticated and gets rid of that in HD (Also gets rid of a LOT of noise)

At 60p, at FF mode internal, aliasing and moire start showing. 

At 60p, at s35 mode internal, they are not showing again. 

At s16 crop with clear zoom, no aliasing/moire are present..

 

If one is so sensitive to digital artefacts, (aliasing and moire are SO hated by some DPs I know they go as far as saying it single-andedly destroys any film negative-quality to the footage that might exist, you might be one of them so:

*** The large sensor photography cameras that show absolutely no moire/aliasing in that price bracket are:

 

-A7s FF and s35 1080p internal

-Panasonic GH4 at 4K mode 

-Canon 5D MKIII (H.264 and Raw) 

-Samsung NX1 

-Nikon D750 in FF (shows moire in s35) 

-Nikon D810 in FF and S35

(Video cameras are a different subject but most also don't show aliasing/moire: C100 series, FS series, F3 series, 1'' camcorders, Small chip camcorders, etc)

 

***The ones with plenty of moire: 

 

All large sensor stills cameras outside the above list, but the absolute worst are A7, A7II, A7r, 6D, D600, GH4 in 96p, A7s in 120p, 

 

***The ones with minimal not obvious aliasing/moire (almost no viewer would complain) are 

 

-A7rII at 4K and s35 modes. 

-A7s at 4K, 

-A7sII at 120p crop

-NX1 at 120p mode 

 

This is just an outline, each one of these cameras will perform slightly differently in aliasing/moire and will perform slightly differently at different patterns/scenes. But this is pretty accurate to go by for a general look. 

 

In short, compared to the A7II, you're going to be very happy. Huge jump is video quality and aliasing/moire resistence on the A7rII, but it's not completely free of it. You'll especially be super excited with the s35 4K mode in resolution, lowlight, DR, S-Log3 colours, minimal moire, you'll see a big jump from the A7II. 

I'd personally evaluate it being unnoticeable for anything rather than very demanding applications like 4K theatre projections and even then not noticeable to normal audience. It's a huge step from the A7II league of moire. 

I expect some impressive results from the A7sII in aliasing/moire performance based on the first generation, plus fixing the biggest issue (S-LOG2 colour science, S-Log3 S.Gamut3 looks much better)

 

 

 

 

Wow !! Thank you for such an informative response. I really appreciate it.

So by the sounds of it, compared to the A7ii I will be extremely happy  Looks like shooting video in crop mode is the go for this camera.

I swear Sony developed this camera to purposefully seek out aliasing and moire ... it shows up everywhere !! I never saw any with my D750 or NX1.

So far I have the A7ii and the 35/2.8 & 55/1.8. If I get the A7Rii I'm really saying goodbye to Nikon and and will be investing in the Sony system which is difficult after all these years but tech moves on.  

The A7Rii fixes a few more things that I hate about the A7ii as well ... min shutter speed in Auto ISO and the ability to toggle the EVF/LCD. 4K and 42MP as well ... I think I'll be pretty happy with it.

 

Also, you mentioned Slog3 ... did the A7Rii get Slog3? I thought only the A7Sii had it.

Again ... thanks.

The A7R2 in aps-c 4k mode is outstanding - clean to 25600iso, little to no nasties at all.  

Full frame is a little ropey but still good IMO, and still way better than what you'll be used to with the a7ii.

I shot all of this in full frame mode on the a7r2 _  https://vimeo.com/142447881   password: scotland

I was shooting with a 24mm f5.6 lens so the iso was usually at around 3200-12800 in some of the lower light scenes.  As you see, the image is good, even on the flawed full frame mode.  As you probably know, the still mode is unreal, and having a full frame 42mpx camera for stills and a camera that shoots flawless 4k in aps-c mode, as well as damn good (if a bit flawed) video in full frame mode is a great package - particularly now it shoots uncompressed raw in stills

 

Thanks for the link ... very nice. It certainly does do well in low light. Looking forward to picking one up.

 

[Gregormannschaft]

Also, you mentioned Slog3 ... did the A7Rii get Slog3? I thought only the A7Sii had it.

Again ... thanks.

Thanks for the link ... very nice. It certainly does do well in low light. Looking forward to picking one up.

 

The A7RII doesn't have Slog 3, just Slog 2. Slog 3 has been a bit divisive on the A7SII so you're not missing out on too much.

[richg101]

The A7RII doesn't have Slog 3, just Slog 2. Slog 3 has been a bit divisive on the A7SII so you're not missing out on too much.

 

Agreed.  I'd also say that unless you;re shooting on an external recorder, 100mbs simply aint enough for a log profile and the associated hassle.  With so many 'LUTs' being made by people with no understanding of what they're actually meant to do I see most s-log footage being 'lutted' to the point where the original dynamic range could have been 7 stops and the delivered result would look the same.  I don;t think I'd ever select one of the log profiles.  I;d rather shoot in Neutral with the contrast and sharpening dialled down and actually feed the in camera compression algorithm with something nearer the final result so more information is dedicated to detail that'll make it into a rec709 crush down. Let the zebras protect highlights and pull shadows up in post if required!:)

 

 

[Gregormannschaft]

Good point, although I do like the aesthetic a LOG profile gives footage if you don't grade too harshly, there is a difference even if, as you say, it's squashed down by LUTS. 

Very tough choice, choosing between the A7RII and the A7SII. Video is my main thing, but I take occasional stills. I'm still leaning towards the A7SII, but it's a narrow choice.

[Don Kotlos]

Very tough choice, choosing between the A7RII and the A7SII. Video is my main thing, but I take occasional stills. I'm still leaning towards the A7SII, but it's a narrow choice.

For stills it depends on the print/output size or cropping ability that you might need. 12MP is enough for many things..

An advantage that A7RII might have in video is the FF/S35 4k ability that can quickly change the FoV. In daytime I find FF 4k very similar to the S35. That also helps with rolling shutter. You might also want to see how that compares to the A7sii before you commit.

[Gregormannschaft]

For stills it depends on the print/output size or cropping ability that you might need. 12MP is enough for many things..

An advantage that A7RII might have in video is the FF/S35 4k ability that can quickly change the FoV. In daytime I find FF 4k very similar to the S35. That also helps with rolling shutter. You might also want to see how that compares to the A7sii before you commit.

Not a bad idea. I was also under the impression that the A7RII can actually focus pretty well with Canon glass in stills, while the A7SII isn't much improved over the A7s. The stills are great on that, it's just I have to manual focus everything.

[Dean]

In daytime I find FF 4k very similar to the S35. That also helps with rolling shutter. You might also want to see how that compares to the A7sii before you commit.

This is interesting.

I thought everyone was saying the S35 4K output from the A7Rii was better all round and not just with the low light stuff. So it's just with higher ISO's that you would see the S35 advantage in the 4K quality .... in normal light there's not that much difference between FF & S35?

I hardly ever use any ISO beyond 800. It is nice to know you can use FF or S35 with this cam though ... very handy.

[Don Kotlos]

This is interesting.

I thought everyone was saying the S35 4K output from the A7Rii was better all round and not just with the low light stuff. So it's just with higher ISO's that you would see the S35 advantage in the 4K quality .... in normal light there's not that much difference between FF & S35?

I hardly ever use any ISO beyond 800. It is nice to know you can use FF or S35 with this cam though ... very handy.

My impression is that for the average shots it will be difficult to notice the difference. For deep DoF nature shots then it might be easier to see the difference. I default in FF mode since it has less rolling shutter too. Only in low light or when I want a narrower FoV I switch to S35. (Also it has been tested here, and here)

[Dean]

My impression is that for the average shots it will be difficult to notice the difference. For deep DoF nature shots then it might be easier to see the difference. I default in FF mode since it has less rolling shutter too. Only in low light or when I want a narrower FoV I switch to S35. (Also it has been tested here, and here)

OK, thanks for that. Good to know. 

The A7RII doesn't have Slog 3, just Slog 2. Slog 3 has been a bit divisive on the A7SII so you're not missing out on too much.

It may be added to the A7Rii at some point I guess. I've tried Slog2 on my A7ii a few times and it's so hit an miss for me ... sometimes it works and sometimes it looks awful ... I'm just not experienced enough to shoot or grade it. When it works it does look nice with the OSIRIS LUTS though ... however that look has worn thin with most people I think ... it's kind of like the "Happy Pants" of colour grading these days  

[Triumph61]

Sorry, I know I will be howled down by some here, but I think the "4K" FF output of the A7RII is far from acceptable, I would say it is a FF still camera and a 4K S35 video camera.  FF can be used for simple bold subjects but really does not stand up to scrutiny when detailed 4K is what you are after.  Its not just lower res than 4K, but it smears  lots of detail in FF.   IMHO.   I would love to be wrong ,  because I wanted this camera to perform in FF, but it does not.    I own the A7RII and yes in S35 it can perform albeit with worse rolling shutter, but in FF it is really average, worse than my 5DMKIII in 1080 with magic lantern.  I am seeing details lost that is  like my 5D did before I used ML.  Using ML Raw I would see texture in a shirt whereas the internal codec would smear it to a flat colour with no texture.  happy to post examples.  

 

[Dean]

Sorry, I know I will be howled down by some here, but I think the "4K" FF output of the A7RII is far from acceptable, I would say it is a FF still camera and a 4K S35 video camera.  FF can be used for simple bold subjects but really does not stand up to scrutiny when detailed 4K is what you are after.  Its not just lower res than 4K, but it smears  lots of detail in FF.   IMHO.   I would love to be wrong ,  because I wanted this camera to perform in FF, but it does not.    I own the A7RII and yes in S35 it can perform albeit with worse rolling shutter, but in FF it is really average, worse than my 5DMKIII in 1080 with magic lantern.  I am seeing details lost that is  like my 5D did before I used ML.  Using ML Raw I would see texture in a shirt whereas the internal codec would smear it to a flat colour with no texture.  happy to post examples.  

 

Post away ... would love to see some examples.

[Gregormannschaft]

There's a good reference point in the cinema 5d review at around 1min50. There's clearly less detail but it's not awful.

http://vimeo.com/135167560

p.s why do my video links not auto embed anymore?

[The Chris]

A7s & GH4 both show moire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75DAsjWVTjw

Its not a bad as the A7II. The A7rII has it in FF, but s35 mode is really good, about 20:30:

[Triumph61]

Post away ... would love to see some examples.

OK, Put on my Flame suit :-)  Actually I would LOVE the Sony to be the camera I keep, I just wish it didn't compromise so much in a few area's like FF 4K resolution and moreso the smearing of detail in FF.  Because of this and the cost ratio of lenses to kit out the A7 series is why I am tossing up to keep the NX1 and or Keep the A7RII and invest in more FF glass....Again :-)    Below are some samples, at 100% and then 200% from 4K still grabs.  From Sony A7RII and NX1  all shot with the same Nikon 35mm 2.8 prime at F5.6,   The order is A7RII  S35....A7RII FF.......NX1.     Before everyone replies yes I can see the NX1 is over sharpened, but it is also impossible to sharpen the Sony S35 to get the result the NX1 gives natively.  So my conclusion is that the S35 on the A7RII is pretty good but probably needs some post sharpening, The A7RII FF is not so good, and the NX1 has lots of resolution and is oversharpened in camera.  The last image is of the 5DMKIII  internal codec versus Magic Lantern Raw showing how the detail in far greater in her T-Shirt,  hat and skin (freckles) where the internal codec is destructive to such detail.  This has been what I have found with the A7RII in FF, the softness I can see and accept to a point,  but less so the smearing of texture and detail that is lost in open areas of detail (rather than edges) that results from this.

[Triumph61]

A7s & GH4 both show moire: Its not a bad as the A7II. The A7rII has it in FF, but s35 mode is really good, about 20:30:

Just watched some of this video,  The still portrait photographer makes a point about his pet hate of bad focus and the guy videoing keeps mis focusing on the background???  Also I question those comparison high iso studio shots near the end, They had to be jpegs cause the sony was using some crazy destructive noise reduction that I am sure would not be an issue if using raw. They did not qualify this and just then gave it to the Canon,  Bit misleading?  More talking heads, some good info and some very misleading. IMHO

[brixvold]

Would a tear down of the videooptions for the a7ii  be possible as well?
I'm trying to get rid of moire and right now it's not an option to go buy a new camera.
Would the crop mode help? slog2?