C300 Mark II First Impressions

[jcs]

First impressions of the C300 Mark II:

The Good

• Autofocus and assisted manual focus so far is amazing. The best autofocus I've used. Even more amazing is it works on all Canon (camera-focus-controlled) EF lenses (tested on the 24-105 F4L and 24-70 F2.8 II, will test more soon). It makes a slight sound, similar to IS noise, but quieter. If using an on-camera mic for run & gun, the noise can be picked up (in a quiet room), however I think with a suspended mic mount the noise shouldn't be audible. No issue at all with a boom or lav. Assisted manual focus helps with 4K critical focus.
• Color is excellent, as expected. Favorite out-of-camera look so far with: Gamma: Canon Log, Color Space: DCI-P3 (or BT.709), Color Matrix: EOS Standard. Adobe CC doesn't have LUTs yet for the C300 II. One of the reasons for using a C300 II is to get excellent color out of camera with minimal work in post- no LUTs need with those settings (just curves, etc.).
• Audio is excellent with options for 24- as well as 16-bit.
• So far in the studio (and my desk) the image is very clean, with no visible recording artifacts (even at 50Mbps LGOP 422 10-bit (limited motion)).
• CFast 2.0 cards copy very fast to the computer over USB3: 300+MB/s to an SSD.

Additional Observations

• Compared to DSLR-sized cameras, it's huge and heavy.
• The top handle, external monitor and mic assembly, and side handle can all be removed to make a smaller package, though it's still relatively heavy compared to DSLRs.
• 4K is 410Mbps: the files are ALL-I and are huge (compared to the 50Mbps files we're used to with DSLRs, and 24Mbps files from the FS700). There is no long GOP option for smaller files. It appears Canon's processor(s) aren't powerful enough to handle long GOP for 4K.
• Premiere CC 2015 (latest) can't handle the new Canon XFAVC files very well (4K and 1080p). Playback is slow and choppy, even at 1/2 playback resolution (might also be a 24-bit 4-track audio issue, testing this). Adobe is offering 1 year of Creative Cloud for C300 II owners, perhaps they'll update Premiere soon to fully support C300 II XFAVC files. Note that I found similar issues when writing the Photon app for 10-bit H.264 support: Premiere ran slowly on those files (sometimes with errors decoding).
• The A7S II with my tweaked settings look pretty good next to the C300 II in 1080p. In 4K the A7S II has lots of macroblocks/artifacts, the C300 II is clean (with 4x larger files). The A7S II makes a nice B/super-low light camera to the C300 II.
• 1080p60 slomo looks decent, likely as it's supersampled from 4K. 120p is clearly lower resolution being a center crop without the benefit of supersampling (which also helps reduce noise and aliasing). 120p on the A7S II looks better.

[jcs]

Premiere Pro CC 2015 can handle 1080p C300 II files in a 1080p Sequence just fine, at full playback resolution. I was testing 4K and 1080p in a 4K Sequence previously. Hopefully Adobe can improve 4K sequence performance: with a GTX980ti and pulling files from a Samsung Pro 850 SSD, 4K editing should be butter smooth. If the compressed H.264 data gets copied across the bus into GPU memory, as long as everything stays in GPU memory everything should run very fast. If they are shuffling data back and forth across the bus, that would explain the low 4K performance (didn't benchmark it, but the latest version of CC seems slower than prior versions for 4K).

Rolling shutter is very low on the C300 II- even without a shoulder rig, the unstablized 24-70 F2.8 II looks decent handheld (the camera mass helps too).

[jcs]

AF set to face priority, looking mostly straight at the camera, sometimes only eyes/nose visible due to focal length. Zooms tested at multiple focal lengths. All lenses tested at max aperture (extra tests with 1.4 and 1.2 stopped down).

• 16-35 F2.8L II
• 24-70 F2.8L II
• 24-105 F4L
• 50 F1.4
• 85 F1.2L
• 135 F2L
• 70-200 F2.8L II

Excellent results on all lenses, though some are quieter or faster than others (50 1.4 and 85 1.2L were the loudest and slowest (stopping down helped a little), 135 F2 the quietest and fastest). Will set up a test in the studio with a boom mic (and perhaps a lav too) to see if focus noise is an issue (without having to filter in post). The autofocus full blur to full focus rack zoom is a cool effect.

[gelaxstudio]

WHY 120p on the C300M2 is  not supersampled and with a crop ？ Sensor problem？

Considering a much cheaper A7SII can do better job，even FS7 can do 180P SM without a crop，what a pain in the ass

The autofocus full blur to full focus rack zoom is a cool effect.

How is the AF perfrom when the len is zooming？

[jcs]

WHY 120p on the C300M2 is  not supersampled and with a crop ？ Sensor problem？

Considering a much cheaper A7SII can do better job，even FS7 can do 180P SM without a crop，what a pain in the ass

How is the AF perfrom when the len is zooming？

We're using the C300 II for the color, especially skin tones (less work in post), organic look, and autofocus / MF focus assist. The FS7 is a nice camera, but not enough of an improvement over our FS700 (which does 240fps). The A7S II is a really nice B-camera though has quite a bit of compression artifacts (4K), rolling shutter, and is more challenging for critical focus in 4K (though the focus peaking is nicely improved over the A7S).

C300 II AF works while zooming- very well and likely better than a manual focus puller for many cases. If everything was equal between the FS7 and C300 II except the focus system, the C300 II is still worth the extra cost: the focus system and tools are really amazing. The top aftermarket monitors are HD only, getting 4K in focus (and even HD, unless stopping down aperture) is challenging, especially for moving camera/subject.

• FCPX on a late 2013 MBP 15" Retina can play the 4K XF-AVC files in smooth real-time directly from an Atomos CFast reader and SanDisk 128GB Extreme Pro CFast 2.0 515MB/s card.
• Premiere Pro CC 2015 with the same hardware and clip can play in real-time with 1/2 Playback resolution, but not as smoothly as FCPX.
• Resolve 11 Lite on the GTI 980ti, Windows 10, 4K display, plays 4K XF-AVC fluid real-time, full resolution with a couple nodes and LUTs (would expect many more nodes could be used with the 980ti before slowdown).

Hopefully the next version of Premiere Pro CC will have full 4K playback support (looks like a video engine issue and not specifically related to XF-AVC 4K files)

[hmcindie]

WHY 120p on the C300M2 is  not supersampled and with a crop ？ Sensor problem？

Considering a much cheaper A7SII can do better job，even FS7 can do 180P SM without a crop，what a pain in the ass

Eh? The A7SII also crops into the image. 100p on the a7s ii is about a 2.2x crop.

[Andrew Reid]

 

• Compared to DSLR-sized cameras, it's huge and heavy.

Big reason I stick to mirrorless rather than the mega expensive stuff.

What is the boot time like?

 

• 4K is 410Mbps: the files are ALL-I and are huge (compared to the 50Mbps files we're used to with DSLRs, and 24Mbps files from the FS700). There is no long GOP option for smaller files. It appears Canon's processor(s) aren't powerful enough to handle long GOP for 4K.

No Long GOP codec for 4K like the FS7 or FS5... oh dear!

ALL-I does have a nicer motion candace though... 1D C MJPEG is also ALL-I.

ALL-I codecs need to be 500Mbit/s for 4K... 100Mbit/s would look much worse than Long GOP at same data rate (because every original frame is stored individually)

• Premiere CC 2015 (latest) can't handle the new Canon XFAVC files very well (4K and 1080p). Playback is slow and choppy, even at 1/2 playback resolution (might also be a 24-bit 4-track audio issue, testing this). Adobe is offering 1 year of Creative Cloud for C300 II owners, perhaps they'll update Premiere soon to fully support C300 II XFAVC files. Note that I found similar issues when writing the Photon app for 10-bit H.264 support: Premiere ran slowly on those files (sometimes with errors decoding).

Have you tried updating the pro video codecs from Apple with FCPX installed? Might help in Premiere too.

• The A7S II with my tweaked settings look pretty good next to the C300 II in 1080p. In 4K the A7S II has lots of macroblocks/artifacts, the C300 II is clean (with 4x larger files). The A7S II makes a nice B/super-low light camera to the C300 II.

Upload an original file from each would love to see that.

And A7S II with Odyssey 7Q+ should get rid of the compression and get it neck and neck with C300 II.

I am trying that combo this week but don't have the C300 II to compare it directly to.

• 1080p60 slomo looks decent, likely as it's supersampled from 4K. 120p is clearly lower resolution being a center crop without the benefit of supersampling (which also helps reduce noise and aliasing). 120p on the A7S II looks better.

Canon slow-mo still shit I see

[Jimmy]

Have Convergent released a firmware for the O7Q+ to get 4K/60fps raw out of the C300 II yet? Would be great to see that.

[jgharding]

 

It sounds brilliant! id love C300 ii but I'll probably hire for now.

also, JCS, I hold up my hands and say you were right in the other thread FS5 vs C300 ii when you said ease of use would trump spec for me despite what I thought.

As much as I want Slog to be the best, I just find Canon much less work to get a nice result. 

Canon are like some dude you're jealous of because of his success and want to hate, but can't because he's a nice guy too! Or something...

I think this report serves to back up the idea that 5D Mk iv will not have the crazy video specs everyone wants. 

No 4K, as that's reserved for their video offerings. no high frame rates at decent quality, since even their flagship won't do this.

yeah I could be proved wrong, but I'd put a pound down on what I say above.

The exception to the pattern was the 550D and successors.

at the time the 550D gave the same video as the 7D for far less cash. But even as everyone else moved on Canon smelled the dollar in maintaining the split between C line video and D line stills.

until someone challenges 1. Their colour and 2. Their ease of use and menu design, this will remain the case.

conpetition forces the hand in free market, no one has quite caught up yet and managed to gain market traction too.

 

[gelaxstudio]

Eh? The A7SII also crops into the image. 100p on the a7s ii is about a 2.2x crop.

A 2.2X crop of the FF sensor is nothing compare to a 2X crop of S35，as the aspect ratio change to about the view of 1 inch，and cinematographers may have to change the len or the camera position，considering a cheaper FS7 can do 180P without any crop   

Canon tech is way behind sony~

[Mattias Burling]

Canon tech is way behind sony~

Does that include bitrate, color space, color, user friendly LOG, AF, Lenses, Focus by wire, build quality, menus, etc.

Not trying to bash Sony, just saying, we all like, need, prioritise differently.

[gelaxstudio]

Does that include bitrate, color space, color, user friendly LOG, AF, Lenses, Focus by wire, build quality, menus, etc.

Not trying to bash Sony, just saying, we all like, need, prioritise differently.

Uh，what I said is the sensor tech，that simplely is a hareware problem ，nothing else ，even the best log and code can't bring u higher framerate or more DR that the sensor can do or provide

It is a Cask Effect 

[Mattias Burling]

Uh，what I said is the sensor tech，that simplely is a hareware problem ，nothing else ，even the best log and code can't bring u higher framerate or more DR that the sensor can do or provide

It is a Cask Effect 

I know. And some dont think framerates are more important than high DR and therefor buy Canon.

Some want higher framerates and are willing to sacrifice DR and buy Sony.

Some says screw both DR and FR and buy the one thats most durable.

Others buy a Gopro. 

All depends on need and usage.

[Jimmy]

Can anyone confirm or mythbust that the c300 II can do 4k/60fps raw via the Odyssey 7Q+?

[jcs]

Big reason I stick to mirrorless rather than the mega expensive stuff.

What is the boot time like?

No Long GOP codec for 4K like the FS7 or FS5... oh dear!

ALL-I does have a nicer motion candace though... 1D C MJPEG is also ALL-I.

ALL-I codecs need to be 500Mbit/s for 4K... 100Mbit/s would look much worse than Long GOP at same data rate (because every original frame is stored individually)

Have you tried updating the pro video codecs from Apple with FCPX installed? Might help in Premiere too.

Upload an original file from each would love to see that.

And A7S II with Odyssey 7Q+ should get rid of the compression and get it neck and neck with C300 II.

I am trying that combo this week but don't have the C300 II to compare it directly to.

Canon slow-mo still shit I see

Boot time- ~6s.

Premiere Pro CC / Pro Video Codecs- all installed with FCPX. After testing extensively on both Windows and OSX, Premiere's slow 4K performance appears to be in Adobe's video engine+pipeline vs. any specific codec. FCPX is impressively fast compared to PPro for 4K, possibly faster than Resolve. FCPX and Resolve's engines are much newer than PPro: Adobe's architecture is quite ancient in tech terms, and wasn't built with real-time and GPU acceleration in mind. Might be time to spend more time in FCPX to see if I can edit faster. 

I have a still photo shoot on Wednesday, I'll see if there's time to shoot some C300.2 + A7S.2 at the same time. For studio shots on tripods I'd expect the two cameras to look pretty good. The C300.2 will be stronger with camera motion (much less rolling shutter, better motion cadence, more usable DR, 10/12-bit 422/444 color, etc.). For studio audio, being able to plug XLR directly into the camera vs. running through a Sound Devices preamp into the A7S.2 is less complexity and easier to use (for dialog I wouldn't expect much difference in final audio quality).

The A7S.2 + O7Q+ should look really nice if the full image/NR processing is output to HDMI, otherwise it can be noisier.

O7Q+ and C300.2 4K 60p RAW- I read on dvxuser that was a mistake, and is not possible. Like most, we're targeting 1080p, where 4K is a nice option to have for some shots/projects. 60p slomo with super-high-quality motion, color, etc., is pretty good for most of our needs. We can always use the FS700 for 240 or the A7S.2 for 120.

[hmcindie]

A 2.2X crop of the FF sensor is nothing compare to a 2X crop of S35

Canon tech is way behind sony~

Let's get this straight. Sony A7sii does a full 1080p picture crop allegedly. The 300ii does a full 1080p picture crop (2048x1080 so it's actually slightly better than the a7s).

Yes, the crop is "bigger" because one sensor is smaller. But the technology seems to be the same. The c300 compresses the image WAY less.

 

And A7S II with Odyssey 7Q+ should get rid of the compression and get it neck and neck with C300 II.

It won't. I recently edited a commercial shot with the A7s (mark i) and the Odyssey (or shogun?), as it was 4k prores. It still has the same amount of color information which was slightly odd to me. More data in the luminance though. It looks very processed.

[AaronChicago]

 

And A7S II with Odyssey 7Q+ should get rid of the compression and get it neck and neck with C300 II.

This was the big bummer for me after renting an A7SII. I found out it's only 8 bit external output. I tried it with my Assassin and it wasn't impressive.

 

[gelaxstudio]

Yes, the crop is "bigger" because one sensor is smaller. But the technology seems to be the same. The c300 compresses the image WAY less.

 Do you get any image to prove what you said？

At least，jcs tested C300M2 and said 120p is clearly lower resolution being a center crop without the benefit of supersampling (which also helps reduce noise and aliasing). 120p on the A7S II looks better.

In fact A7RII and A7SII are so much cheaper as they are 8BIT enterlevel 4K camera，so C300M2 real competitors are FS7  and ursa 4.6K ect.

BTW，how about 2K 240P raw whitout crop on the FS700 + Odyssey 7Q？ 

Blow it out of the water  

[jcs]

gelaxstudio- there's no perfect camera. I suppose the ARRI Alexa or Amira come the closest- the best color, the most filmic, lowest rolling shutter (of RS cameras (obviously global shutter is best, but those cameras have other issues (typically less DR)), highest usable dynamic range, decent slomo, and 4k-ish max resolution (3.2k Bayer upscale). The 3.2K ARRI upscale compares well to the 6K Red Dragon downscale to 4K (UHD): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WML-fggbznA

We considered the ARRI Amira (starts around $35k for the body), however the C300 II's color and dynamic range are so close to the ARRI and Canon's new autofocus system really make the C300 II a better fit for what we need right now. 60P HD is plenty and if we need higher frame rates our FS700 goes up to 240 (FS700 requires more post work on color vs. C300 II). Most people don't have 4K displays (we only recently upgraded our monitors to 4K, still no 4K TVs yet in the studio + very limited commercial 4K content currently available). 4K is a useful tool for post cropping/zooming, but not that important yet for delivery (even most theatrical deliveries are 2K; 4K is rare).

[gelaxstudio]

gelaxstudio- there's no perfect camera.

Yeah，u are right，I just thinking C300M2 is too overpriced ，making it less competitive