Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera

[giostrante]

Interesting, thanks for posting, it seems cleaner than mine at first look, now BM has my camera  and I can't do any test anymore.

[Bioskop.Inc]

11 minutes ago, giostrante said:

Interesting, thanks for posting, it seems cleaner than mine at first look, now BM has my camera  and I can't do any test anymore.

Have a play with the original DNG & see what you think - hope it helps. It does have a lot of noise & is certainly not clean, but I don't see any FPN.

I'm sure if someone has Neat Video they could clean it up, but if you have to push something 5 stops etc. its never going to look nice or be realistically useable.

[Zak Forsman]

45 minutes ago, JazzBox said:

Zak, do you think it is something that needs to send the camera back to BM to be fixed?

I've sent DNGs to Blackmagic as of 5 minutes ago. Waiting to see what they say. They're not a dealkiller for me as they are pretty faint. Hard to see on a single frame. Motion is what really reveals them. But I can also confirm what Rich101 says. I have similarly exposed shots from the BMPCC that don't exhibit this at all. I went back to check and compare. Even given proper exposure, they reveal themselves in any part of the frame that dips into shadows which is going to be a part of most shots.

I'm optimistic that if BMD can fix the Ursa Mini 4K's "cold start" noise issue (and they have) then they can fix this. If they can't, then I'll likely go back to the Pocket as my A camera and use the Micro for slow motion and more precarious rigging (like car mounts, etc). 

[Bioskop.Inc]

5 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

I've sent DNGs to Blackmagic as of 5 minutes ago. Waiting to see what they say. They're not a dealkiller for me as they are pretty faint. Hard to see on a single frame. Motion is what really reveals them. But I can also confirm what Rich101 says. I have similarly exposed shots from the BMPCC that don't exhibit this at all. I went back to check and compare. Even given proper exposure, they reveal themselves in any part of the frame that dips into shadows which is going to be a part of most shots.

I'm optimistic that if BMD can fix the Ursa Mini 4K's "cold start" noise issue (and they have) then they can fix this. If they can't, then I'll likely go back to the Pocket as my A camera and use the Micro for slow motion and more precarious rigging (like car mounts, etc). 

Might have been trying so hard to implement GS, that they skipped a few steps for the first FW release - the pocket took a few updates before it became what it is today.

Its a shame, but hardly unexpected.

[JazzBox]

44 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

I've sent DNGs to Blackmagic as of 5 minutes ago. Waiting to see what they say. They're not a dealkiller for me as they are pretty faint. Hard to see on a single frame. Motion is what really reveals them. But I can also confirm what Rich101 says. I have similarly exposed shots from the BMPCC that don't exhibit this at all. I went back to check and compare. Even given proper exposure, they reveal themselves in any part of the frame that dips into shadows which is going to be a part of most shots.

I'm optimistic that if BMD can fix the Ursa Mini 4K's "cold start" noise issue (and they have) then they can fix this. If they can't, then I'll likely go back to the Pocket as my A camera and use the Micro for slow motion and more precarious rigging (like car mounts, etc). 

Thank you very much Zak!
Mine just arrived, this evening I'll shoot some test crossing fingers  

Is this issue visible also in ProRes? Huge thanks for your kind help! 

[Zak Forsman]

i've only shot in RAW and RAW 3:1 so far.

[JazzBox]

17 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

i've only shot in RAW and RAW 3:1 so far.

Thank you Zak!

[MattH]

3 hours ago, Zak Forsman said:

i've only shot in RAW and RAW 3:1 so far.

Could they actually do anything about raw?  I mean isn't the whole point of raw that you get the image before the camera maker has done anything to it?

[shijan]

7 hours ago, Zak Forsman said:

i've only shot in RAW and RAW 3:1 so far.

Zak, did you see any difference between RAW vs RAW 3:1 maybe noise or banging in extreme situations or after extreme saturation boost?

[Zak Forsman]

Blackmagic looked at everything I sent them and said it's fixed pattern noise. Their words. They are issuing an RMA so I can send it to them.

[Mattias Burling]

21 hours ago, MattH said:

Could they actually do anything about raw?  I mean isn't the whole point of raw that you get the image before the camera maker has done anything to it?

They can, FPN was highly reduced in the BMPC4K via firmware.
There is actually a lot of things going on in Raw as well. In the debayer process when it becomes DNGs it can be processed differently.
An example is that the BMD has a bit of sharpening while the D16 is much less "sharp" or more "soft", depending on how you view it.

[giostrante]

I've received today update from BM, also my Pocket is faulty according to them, they are sending me a new one! Well, nothing to say about their customer service, awesome, I will definitely be with them for a long long time!

And I think that this is the perfect answer to this:

On 4/7/2016 at 0:31 PM, Bioskop.Inc said:

That's not a normal shooting situation & you really shouldn't expect to be getting anything worth while by doing that.

Sorry, but there's nothing wrong with your camera. You're being totally unrealistic about what you can achieve. Now do the same test again with just that lamp on or even a big candle - that would be a minimum of light, not a few leaks coming from the cracks of the shutters.

I think I'm done here.

[Bioskop.Inc]

7 minutes ago, giostrante said:

I've received today update from BM, also mine was faulty according to them, they are sending me a new one! Well, nothing to say about their customer service, awesome, I definitely will be their customer for a long long time!

And I think that this is the perfect answer to this:

I think I'm done here.

So many F**KHeads about!

People post sub standard screen grabs & no info about what they were trying to do - unrealistic shit stress test in the first place.

Then you go out of your way to upload a DNG file so that they can compare with what they have. Then you get this sort of shit from them.

Yeah F**K OFF!

[giostrante]

Poor dear, I hurt your feeling, it seems. I'm sorry, if it was just a screenshot why were you so sure?
Next time, you would better think twice before judging what someone do, ok? I've already said thanks for the DNG, so please, watch your mouth, my dear friend.

Instead of blaming me you could just say "I was wrong", simple and honest, not difficult at all.

Peace

[giostrante]

On 4/7/2016 at 1:25 PM, Bioskop.Inc said:

Yeah, I understood that it was an extreme stress test - I'm always calm.

 

Mmm, are you really sure?

 

[Nikkor]

The funny part is when the camera comes back and the noise is still there while doing stress tests, but we won't see that post on the forum. (and I'm not talking about zaks fixed pattern noise)

[Nikkor]

Filmmaker is the standart text that the forum places there, mr professor. If you take a look at bioskops file, open it in photoshop, turn off color noise removal and push one stop (iso 1600) you will see the same noise you have. You can take any camera and put it into equivalent iso (iso 4800-6400 for fullframe) and you will see the same noise in shitty light.

Have fun, I've seen this noise debates on dpreview for years, it's always the same story.

 a cookie if you need one for your ego.

 

14 minutes ago, giostrante said:

Of course, you should be another professor, with precognitive powers also, what a bunch of extraordinary people here, the X-men of video, excellent! 

I guess you're right, BM is sending me a new camera because, unlike you, they can't understand if there's a problem or not, they just have so many cameras left in stock that they give them away like peanuts. 

Let me say, I see that there are a lot of people here, who enjoy so much writing  "Filmmaker" under their nicknames, and this gives to them a superior knowledge that normal mortals like me can't even imagine. 
You should ask a Pocket to BM too, they certainly will give it to you for free, everything for a real "Super-Filmmaker" like you.

You are the funniest part, believe me.

 

[MattH]

10 hours ago, Nikkor said:

Filmmaker is the standart text that the forum places there, mr professor. If you take a look at bioskops file, open it in photoshop, turn off color noise removal and push one stop (iso 1600) you will see the same noise you have. You can take any camera and put it into equivalent iso (iso 4800-6400 for fullframe) and you will see the same noise in shitty light.

Have fun, I've seen this noise debates on dpreview for years, it's always the same story.

 a cookie if you need one for your ego.

 

 

I don't like to take sides in bitch fights, but I believe you will turn out to be correct.  You see the exact same thing DSLR raw files at native resolution when pushed.  Chroma noise reduction is needed at the very least.  People forget that "low light" cameras like the A7S will have a shit ton of noise reduction applied.

And unfortunately I seriously wonder whether black magic would test a new pocket cam before they send it out.  They are probably just taking the customer at their word that their is an issue and rolling the roulette wheel with a replacment.  There is a good chance the replacement will be just the same or even worse.

[Nikkor]

57 minutes ago, MattH said:

And unfortunately I seriously wonder whether black magic would test a new pocket cam before they send it out.  They are probably just taking the customer at their word that their is an issue and rolling the roulette wheel with a replacment.  There is a good chance the replacement will be just the same or even worse.

Yep, slightly different if not the same, or maybe he gets a defective one :S

[richg101]

Just now, Nikkor said:

Yep, slightly different if not the same, or maybe he gets a defective one :S

Often it's cheaper to just send a replacement than try to diagnose the problem only for the customer to complain online.  I've yet to send examples of what I've found with my camera since I don't think the issue is really an issue unless the footage is pushed heavily.  I'm on the fence.    I always felt amazed how much the pocket could do, and know that what I'm seeing is likely a firmware fix rather than a physical problem.    because i know how good they are with customer service I'm happy to sit back and see.  if in 1 -2 months - or 8 months for that matter I feel the camera isn;t doing what it should I'll get in touch with them.