Beholder DS1 Thoughts

[NX1user]

On March 27, 2016 at 9:25 AM, jase said:

Great post! Couple of questions: which monopod are you using in that setup? About the invert mode, can you do that while filming or does it go nuts then? E.g. can i start it in inverted mode, hold it out of the window of a car getting the low profile shot, bring it up and invert it back to normal mode while shooting? Or does it look like shit then?

It was just a cheap Dolica monopod (that's why you can see it bending!)

About the invert mode, I know I've seen a couple of videos where the gimbal is just flipped while it is still on, but those videos didn't show the camera view. I haven't tried it (I don't have the DS1 with me at the moment), but I'll try it and see what happens. 

[grisnjam]

My review, mainly sample footage:

 

 

[One Trick Pony]

The DS1 is heavy.  With a DSLR mounted it will be around 5lbs, and difficult to hold in the upright position for long periods.  For moving around a lot,  hanging inverted helps but will be low-angle perspective.  I got the DS1 for SMOOTH video. It works.There is lots of video around that illustrates what the DS1 can do.  But I also would like QUIET.  If you can feel the slightest vibration, the camera-mounted microphone will record an objectionable buzz.   If after carefully balancing your system for your camera you still have any issues,  you have to download Mini GUI (free) and calibrate / tune the PID / RMS settings. Nothing about it is intuitive.  You have to read the GUI manual, and get used to how it works.  If you bump the DS1 against something,  put it down hard,  or accidentally tip it over when it is standing on the handle,  it will probably need calibration.  If your camera is heavier than the "stock" calibration, or you can't stand mode-change beeps, or want one mode that gives you really, slow, smooth pans,  you need to tweak the firmware.  The DS1 is only "sorta" plug and play.     

[Jonesy Jones]

I was sold on either the DS1 or H2, but now I'm seriously looking at the DJI X5 or the X5R which isn't out yet. I know the thought of a dedicated camera is concerning, but these are actually pretty sweet cameras. Very light setup. And with raw a lot of room in post. I'm committed to waiting until NAB though. Probably some cool announcements in the very near future. 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

So with the H2 coming down the pipe, is the DS1 still the gimbal to get? I might be able to get one from eBay for $550, but might hold off if something simpler and easier is just around the corner.

[DPStewart]

27 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

So with the H2 coming down the pipe, is the DS1 still the gimbal to get? I might be able to get one from eBay for $550, but might hold off if something simpler and easier is just around the corner.

Unfortunately "simpler" and "easier" have not really landed firmly on the ground yet. What I'm seeing is that gimbals made specifically only for ONE camera - like a GoPro, or the OSMO - are the only ones that really work "simply and easily".

What seems to be the trend is a lot of better and more sophisticated gimbals - but they all still seem to need tweaking.

John Hess from Filmmaker IQ pointed out something EXTREMELY important about gimbals vs. a SteadyCam type stabilizer. And that is that a gimbal has MANY areas that can fail - i.e., each motor axis and any buttons and/or controllers. And if ANY of them fail then THE WHOLE THING is toast at that moment and your shooting day is all over. Whereas the ONLY part of a SteadyCam that can't be adjusted manually on-site is the gimbal-bearing itself - and those are not electronic so they almost never fail without first wearing out over time.

For this reason I am immediately scrambling for cash to get a full vest/arm/sled SteadyCam rig. As much as I dig my Beholder DS1, if any of those components glitch out on me on a paid shoot - I'm in trouble. Even on my own productions - sometimes it's not really possible to get the site and all the people back again if the electronic gimbal crashes.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

4 minutes ago, DPStewart said:

Unfortunately "simpler" and "easier" have not really landed firmly on the ground yet. What I'm seeing is that gimbals made specifically only for ONE camera - like a GoPro, or the OSMO - are the only ones that really work "simply and easily".

What seems to be the trend is a lot of better and more sophisticated gimbals - but they all still seem to need tweaking.

John Hess from Filmmaker IQ pointed out something EXTREMELY important about gimbals vs. a SteadyCam type stabilizer. And that is that a gimbal has MANY areas that can fail - i.e., each motor axis and any buttons and/or controllers. And if ANY of them fail then THE WHOLE THING is toast at that moment and your shooting day is all over. Whereas the ONLY part of a SteadyCam that can't be adjusted manually on-site is the gimbal-bearing itself - and those are not electronic so they almost never fail without first wearing out over time.

For this reason I am immediately scrambling for cash to get a full vest/arm/sled SteadyCam rig. As much as I dig my Beholder DS1, if any of those components glitch out on me on a paid shoot - I'm in trouble. Even on my own productions - sometimes it's not really possible to get the site and all the people back again if the electronic gimbal crashes.

I understand that fear for professional work. But as a film student, I feel like one of these gimbals would be a better solution for the here and now. A real steadicam/glidecam takes a lot of time and practice to perfect, and I'm spread thin as it is. Plus, I feel like they're a lot faster to get balanced, up, and running on a disorganized (ie: student-run) set. 

[DPStewart]

Just now, TheRenaissanceMan said:

I understand that fear for professional work. But as a film student, I feel like one of these gimbals would be a better solution for the here and now. Plus, I feel like they're a lot faster to get balanced, up, and running on a disorganized (ie: student-run) set. 

Yeah - I'd agree with that. But I've seen students get just the Sled of a SteadyCam - not the arm and vest - and have them mastered in an afternoon. But I do agree they are more complicated. But an important factor is that you can get a great one of those for about $285 (Liange) and also there's no batteries to charge.

If the shot is not "do or die" and you could re-do it again later - I absolutely think something like the DS1 is the better choice.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

4 minutes ago, DPStewart said:

Yeah - I'd agree with that. But I've seen students get just the Sled of a SteadyCam - not the arm and vest - and have them mastered in an afternoon. But I do agree they are more complicated. But an important factor is that you can get a great one of those for about $285 (Liange) and also there's no batteries to charge.

If the shot is not "do or die" and you could re-do it again later - I absolutely think something like the DS1 is the better choice.

The other factor is that I work with a variety of different cameras: 5Ds, 6Ds, Rebels, BMs, Nikons, Sonys, Panasonics, even one kid with a Digital Bolex. Wouldn't it be faster and easier to get a new camera balanced on a 3-axis gimbal than on a traditional steadicam sled?

[DPStewart]

1 hour ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

The other factor is that I work with a variety of different cameras: 5Ds, 6Ds, Rebels, BMs, Nikons, Sonys, Panasonics, even one kid with a Digital Bolex. Wouldn't it be faster and easier to get a new camera balanced on a 3-axis gimbal than on a traditional steadicam sled?

No. Because once you figure it out on either one, then making small adjustments for a moderately different camera is about the same amount of work on each.

So that one's a wash.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

On 4/7/2016 at 9:15 PM, DPStewart said:

No. Because once you figure it out on either one, then making small adjustments for a moderately different camera is about the same amount of work on each.

So that one's a wash.

Well...huh. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the entire appeal of the 3-axis gimbal, then. Maybe a pros and cons list would help.

Pros:

-Smaller and lighter

-Inverted mode for low-angle shots

-Can be used on the end of a monopod for faux-crane/jib shots

Cons:

-Require batteries

-Electronic, so more likely to fail completely if a component malfunctions

-More expensive 

-Lower weight limit


Is that the gist of it?

[DPStewart]

21 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Well...huh. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the entire appeal of the 3-axis gimbal, then. Maybe a pros and cons list would help.

Pros:

-Smaller and lighter

-Inverted mode for low-angle shots

-Can be used on the end of a monopod for faux-crane/jib shots

Cons:

-Require batteries

-Electronic, so more likely to fail completely if a component malfunctions

-More expensive 

-Lower weight limit


Is that the gist of it?

I'd say that sums it up pretty well. Except full vest/arm/sled can do inverted mode too. You just have to flip the image back right-side-up in post, but most external monitors can flip the image so you're good to go on capture.

Also - you can take gimbals in some places that a steadycam can't really go - like hanging out the window of a car. Things like that.

 

[benatis]

hi, my name is Benny from Australia.

2 months ago i purchased Beholder DS1 from USA, since i got everything works fine with the Joystick too.

but i am not using it at that time, so i keep in my storage room untill the 6th weeks i need it back.

at that time, because no battery so i recharge it. and after charging and turn on  like before i use it, i found a problem with my Beholder ds1 that the JOYSTICK 5-way buttons not working so i cannot control the movement of my Camera, but the Gimbal work like normal and stabilize perfectly.

i tried to reset button, and try long press the power and everything, the Joystick not working.

 

what should i do to fix this problem, thanks

[jase]

Wrong site - join the facebook group, there you got lots of experts.

[pablogrollan]

On 15/4/2016 at 1:19 AM, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Well...huh. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the entire appeal of the 3-axis gimbal, then. Maybe a pros and cons list would help.

Pros:

-Smaller and lighter

-Inverted mode for low-angle shots

-Can be used on the end of a monopod for faux-crane/jib shots

Cons:

-Require batteries

-Electronic, so more likely to fail completely if a component malfunctions

-More expensive 

-Lower weight limit


Is that the gist of it?

Having used both traditional steadicams with vest and arm and a few 3 axis gimbals (BeSteady, Ronin, Pilotfly) I believe there is one major point missing: the learning curve.

I kinda disagree with DPStewart that switching cameras is as inconvenient in a Steadicam as in a 3 axis gimbal. In my experience it takes considerably longer in a traditional steadicam, even if only because the gimbal has motors that allow for a slightly unbalanced or misbalanced configuration (sure, battery drains faster and it may not be as smooth, but still works perfectly) while an improperly balanced Steadicam will make your life hell...

But above all, with a 3 axis gimbal you may need a few hours until you get the hang of how to balance it quickly, and maybe an afternoon until you fly it with confidence and proficency (hardly an hour to get decent results!). A conventional Steadicam is much better in some regards but it takes a lot of practice, and I mean a lot! That's why steadicam operators have been very well paid for so many years. Not to mention that, though heavier means smoother "floating" movements, it also means overstraining your back. I've seen several steadicam operators forced to retire in their 40s because of their back problems...

[Felix]

On 29.2.2016 at 11:48 PM, NX1user said:

I've had a DS1 for a couple of months now and it's been very solid. Any problems I've had have been from me trying to cut corners on pre-balancing it. As long as I properly balance it, everything is fine. The only other issues I've had are from not knowing what is happening with it due to the manual not being clear. So, here's some tips on the DS1:

* It starts up in follow mode.

* One button press and you will hear a tone. Now it's in lock mode. (The manual is clear on these two modes).

* Another quick press, gets you a tone and you're back in follow mode.

* To go into half-follow mode requires a two second press. Confusingly, it doesn't give you a tone when you do this.

* To add to the confusion, a five second button press completely disables the joystick. Also no tone. The manual doesn't mention this at all. I imagine that after improper balancing, this undocumented feature causes the most customer confusion.

* Invert mode is easily accessed, just hold the DS1 upside down. You don't even have to turn it off! 

* They don't advertise the DS1 as water proof or resistant, but I've read some people think it is because the wiring is concealed under foam. WRONG! If you carefully look at the DS1 under sunlight you can see the copper wire windings in the motor housings through the gap between pieces. So don't believe the people tag think t may be water resistant.

* I built a double handle rig for it with a couple 15mm rods, two handles and a mounting plate in the middle. That's about another $60 of hardware. It's great for holding the DS1 for longer periods.

I'm happy with my DS1. I got it to work with my NX1, 16-50 S lens combo which is heavy. It does fine. The only problem is that the 16-50 S lens is so heavy that the NX1 has to sit back on the plate very far. This means your tilt range is very limited and that you won't be using any focal lengths longer than 16mm. That's obviously no fault of the DS1.

Here's a couple sample shots where I attached the DS1 to a monopod and used it as a jib (not with the 16-50 S lens):

 

In this post you said: "To add to the confusion, a five second button press completely disables the joystick. Also no tone. The manual doesn't mention this at all. I imagine that after improper balancing, this undocumented feature causes the most customer confusion."

Does anyone have an idea how to enable the joystick again?

I'm going a little bit nuts right now because I can't get it to work anymore. And there is nothing to be found on the web on this topic. Only a video of a chinese guy messing with the settings in simpleBGC. I tried that already, but still not working.

 

[NX1user]

5 hours ago, Felix said:

In this post you said: "To add to the confusion, a five second button press completely disables the joystick. Also no tone. The manual doesn't mention this at all. I imagine that after improper balancing, this undocumented feature causes the most customer confusion."

Does anyone have an idea how to enable the joystick again?

I'm going a little bit nuts right now because I can't get it to work anymore. And there is nothing to be found on the web on this topic. Only a video of a chinese guy messing with the settings in simpleBGC. I tried that already, but still not working.

 

powering off then on again, re-activates the joystick on mine.