Why 8K will not eliminate the boundary between stills and video when it comes to technique

[Andrew Reid]

The quality of 1080p had barely been made film-like before being cast aside for 4K and now manufacturers are racing to make 8K a reality, which is in the region of 36MP, before 2018.

It seems the megapixel race has truly come to filmmaking.

Read the full article

[Marco Tecno]

Very good point of view. I find myself capturing a frame, from time to time, from a video taken with nx1. But that's constantly lower iq compared to the postprocessed raw both in resolution and (most importantly) color and dr.

And as you say, I don't se me filming hours just to extract 20 pictures! With the nx1 it's much more convenient, for me, to use the burst when I need it. I then have raw files to work with, less work at home and no big files on the card.

[maxmizer]

Watch Andrew, for me there are few idiots who do not understand that today there isn't a decent 4K camera below the 8000/9000 €.

8k camera are a mockery if they have the quality of the current 4K, see the crap that makes Sony where you have to work to correct the defects of color, instead of being creative.
Instead of 8k, the community should ask, sensor cleaner and good curve log, high ISO, 10-bit high bit rates or raw via HDMI, only 2 bit rate in the camera: All-I and long GOP (all-at least I 200mbs "gh2 came to 140mbs in full HD).

 

Sorry for language error ( translate by Google)

[Zach Ashcraft]

I'd take 1080 raw over 8K any day of the week

[drillthrall]

Noob question here on the technology as I'm confused.  Will these 2018 consumer Panasonic 8K cameras be using a micro 4/3 sized sensor?  Doesn't it have to be bigger than that? Help me understand.  Thanks.

[Andrew Reid]

Noob question here on the technology as I'm confused.  Will these 2018 consumer Panasonic 8K cameras be using a micro 4/3 sized sensor?  Doesn't it have to be bigger than that? Help me understand.  Thanks.

On performance grounds it does call for a full frame sensor really, although the Samsung NX1 at almost 7K is APS-C size (1.5x crop).

Low light on a 2x crop M4/3 sensor at 36MP would not be ideal.

It is certainly possible though. You can even go smaller.

The approx. 1" Nokia 808 Pureview mobile phone sensor was 41MP, 8K stills at least if not video.

[Jimmy]

It's not like they will remove the shutter though... Just more options.... I could see uses for it, if the IQ is good and filesizes reasonable

[kaylee]

andrew i agree with the premise of your article: this idea of stills/video "convergence" is just hot bullshit. marketing bullshit.

ykno.... some say that "COLOR" was actually a pretty sexy marketing term back in the 20th century.......

> fun story about "Ks"

when ppl come in my office for the first time, and i know them to be somewhat knowledgable about video, my new thing is to have then sit down to watch "SOME 4K VIDEO ON MY NEW TV!"

i dim the lights and play some clips. i point out the detail... "Do you see all this? Its so clear!" ppl are always amazed

then i tell them that what i said originally was a little misleading... theyre watching 4k video on my 1080p plasma

their reaction is always the same...... a gradual, creeping, soul enveloping confusion

[jonpais]

Watch Andrew, for me there are few idiots who do not understand that today there isn't a decent 4K camera below the 8000/9000 €.

8k camera are a mockery if they have the quality of the current 4K, see the crap that makes Sony where you have to work to correct the defects of color, instead of being creative.
Instead of 8k, the community should ask, sensor cleaner and good curve log, high ISO, 10-bit high bit rates or raw via HDMI, only 2 bit rate in the camera: All-I and long GOP (all-at least I 200mbs "gh2 came to 140mbs in full HD).

 

Sorry for language error ( translate by Google)

Sony makes crap? Sony 4K is holding you back from being creative? Sorry, but I fail to understand. By the time Panasonic comes out with 8K, there will be lots of other improvements in sensor technology as well, I'm sure. But I really don't care about 8K either: for one thing, I don't extract stills from video that often; for another, I still use a 2K monitor and don't plan on upgrading for a few years.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

4K/8K will not soon eliminate photography equipment but not for these reasons:

1 -Mechanical Shutter. A professional photographer will never take a fully electronic shutter that has rolling artefacts, light bands, and flash bands. 

 

2 -Global shutter is the way to solve this, but it hugely affects image quality, taking us to the next point: 

 

3 -Lowlight performance. To make an 8K FF Global shutter camera shooting video, lowlight performance will be far worse than an 8K FF Mechanical shutter stills camera. 

 

4 -Compression. Being a video camera, the images are going to be degraded enormously by compression and wrapping, therefore unless 4K/8K cameras shooy uncompressed RAW video sequences, then it's unacceptable. And if it does, it takes us to: 

 

5 -Data rates. 4K/8K Uncompressed RAW FF 24p is HUGE amount of data, HUGE. Almost no photographer is going to cope with such data rate ever, due to cost and simple storage and media size, which takes us to the next point: 

 

6 -Camera size and price and weight: an 8K Camera shooting RAW off a FF sensor (an equivalent to a D810), is at least ten times as large, and is not handholdable in anyway. The only 8K camera we've seen, From Canon is a C300II body, with enormous fans, four stacked 7" CD Odyssey Q7+ recorders carrying SSDs on a full rail system, and that's even only an APS-C 8K camera. A Red Weapon Vistavision is also unusable huge for stills photography applications. It's simple physics, a D810 shooting at 24p is going to be a huge camera. 

 

7 -Autofocus systems, the lack of mechanical shutter and mirror assembly forces full reliance on sensor based AF, which is to this point, is far lower quality AF systems for stills photography (even Canon PDAF) vs DSLRs high end AF systems with a separate sensor. They are faster, momentary, accurate, and track better at extreme speeds. 

 

8 -The lack of optical viewfinders is a huge, huge deal, in itself a dealbreaker to many 

 

9 -The lack of Flash systems, that work and shoot at 24p, and even if they were to be invented they'd be humongous and require enormous power, and still don't work because of rolling shutter. Continuous light is going to be their only choice. A dealbreaker. 

 

10 -The power the camera system needs, at least a huge V-Lock Battery mounted to a plate on the back, vs a small LP Canon or Nikon battery that hides in the grip. 

 

11 -The ergonomics and size of an 8K cinema camera to shoot stills vs the ergonomics of a DSLR for shooting stills. 

 

12 -The huge cost increase in camera price and storage and power and processing 

 

13 -Lastly, the simple lack of need. The vast majority who shoot all types of photography find 5-8fps more than they need, and only one small genre of photography needs that concept which is extreme sports: and those have sports cameras like the D4s/1DX and more coming. Stills cameras are extremely fast now that we don't need to shoot video to get that spray and pray style that video offers, sports cameras that are much less expensive, smaller, better to use for stills, shoot 14fps at raw, not far from 24p and certainly more than enough. Even a tiny 7D shoots 10fps RAW with all the advantages of a stills camera to a stills shooter. That's only going to to get even better and stills cameras are going to improve each year reaching 15ish fps speeds. No need for the extra 24p when it comes with all those huge downsides. 

 

***So does it mean there is no place for high resolution photo-based video aquisition with 4K/8K cameras? Of course there is! 

They will be used for many great applications. Mostly: 

-The simultanuous shooting of photography-quality stills whilst shooting video/film projects and ability to offer both at the end. This is an advantage to videographers/filmmakers and not really photographers.

It's an enormous bonus. I deliver 8mp stills from video and clients are simply shocked, they adore the extra photo book. 

Therefore, I expect this technique and usage of video for stills aquisition is only going to be for videogeaphers rather than photographers, who will continue using dedicated photography cameras and will never give up their convenience, unless a company makes: 

A video camera, that shoots 24p 4K/8K FF uncompressed RAW, using a Global shutter sensor yet deliver the same IQ and lowlight performance as highest end stills cameras, having a top notch EVF system that compares to OVFs, and an AF system much better than Canon PDAF, all to small Card-sized media and batteries, with a flash system that can coup with it and still have the same size and power, and a body that has the same stills ergonomics. 

This camera is not going to happen anytime soon.

And the shooting of video by photographers is not going to happen on more than an experimental stage, until and if technology of video cameras really out run the technological advances of stills cameras and the previously mentioned camera is built, and I doubt it, as by then, they'll be even greater stills cameras, shooting 20fps raw with mechanical shutters and OVFs and amazing image quality, rendering the use of video useless aside from the simultaneous acquisition of both media types. 

[yoclay]

I have already been down this road for several fashion shoots. It is absolute hell to edit.

One day of shooting, four days of editing.  The loss of time in post production is the single greatest reason why the concept does not in any practical way work.  Perhaps the on set photographer may lose their jobs eventually, but for the rest of us taking stills is a far more effective workflow than pulling from video.

[animan]

The quality of 1080p had barely been made film-like before being cast aside for 4K and now manufacturers are racing to make 8K a reality, which is in the region of 36MP, before 2018.

It seems the megapixel race has truly come to filmmaking.

Read the full article

I think you miss the most important reason which is shutter speed is a huge part of the creative decision a photographer makes

[Andrew Reid]

Yes shutter speed is, but that part isn't hard to fix is it? If you're shooting stills with a video camera, just select the desired shutter speed. If you're not trying to deliver video, just stills, then it's not a problem. If you're trying to do both at the same time & you're using 1/50 for crazy fast action, it's likely the wrong choice anyway. 180 degrees shutter and 24p doesn't suit ALL.

4K/8K will not soon eliminate photography equipment but not for these reasons:

1 -Mechanical Shutter. A professional photographer will never take a fully electronic shutter that has rolling artefacts, light bands, and flash bands.

I disagree with you I'm afraid Ebrahim as like I said in the article I think the technology or stills & video will merge.

Firstly it will be global shutter for both stills and video as standard soon and the mechanical shutter will be obsolete, as will a rolling shutter. We're nearly there... few more years.

2 -Global shutter is the way to solve this, but it hugely affects image quality, taking us to the next point:

It won't hurt image quality at all in 2018.

Look at the Sony F55 global vs F5 rolling for instance. We're almost already at a point where a global shutter's impact on low light is minimal. The sensor for that camera was developed before 2014.

3 -Lowlight performance. To make an 8K FF Global shutter camera shooting video, lowlight performance will be far worse than an 8K FF Mechanical shutter stills camera.

Again it depends on the technology of 2018 not of 2014.

4 -Compression. Being a video camera, the images are going to be degraded enormously by compression and wrapping, therefore unless 4K/8K cameras shooy uncompressed RAW video sequences, then it's unacceptable. And if it does, it takes us to:

5 -Data rates. 4K/8K Uncompressed RAW FF 24p is HUGE amount of data, HUGE. Almost no photographer is going to cope with such data rate ever, due to cost and simple storage and media size, which takes us to the next point:

6 -Camera size and price and weight: an 8K Camera shooting RAW off a FF sensor (an equivalent to a D810), is at least ten times as large, and is not handholdable in anyway. The only 8K camera we've seen, From Canon is a C300II body, with enormous fans, four stacked 7" CD Odyssey Q7+ recorders carrying SSDs on a full rail system, and that's even only an APS-C 8K camera. A Red Weapon Vistavision is also unusable huge for stills photography applications. It's simple physics, a D810 shooting at 24p is going to be a huge camera. 

These are also all fixable in future.

The technology is merging, like I said in the article, but the technique is not really the same for going about capturing the content.

7 -Autofocus systems, the lack of mechanical shutter and mirror assembly forces full reliance on sensor based AF, which is to this point, is far lower quality AF systems for stills photography (even Canon PDAF) vs DSLRs high end AF systems with a separate sensor. They are faster, momentary, accurate, and track better at extreme speeds.

A7R II's on-sensor phase detect speed at it's best is easily a match for any professional DSLR!

Panasonic GX8 contrast detect system is as fast as a DSLR with many of Panasonic's lenses.

EVFs are coming that will blow your socks off. Seen the one in the Leica SL?

The mirror assembly is definitely going to be obsolete soon.

8 -The lack of optical viewfinders is a huge, huge deal, in itself a dealbreaker to many 

Nah it's not

9 -The lack of Flash systems, that work and shoot at 24p, and even if they were to be invented they'd be humongous and require enormous power, and still don't work because of rolling shutter. Continuous light is going to be their only choice. A dealbreaker.

Again an easy technological problem to fix in future.

10 -The power the camera system needs, at least a huge V-Lock Battery mounted to a plate on the back, vs a small LP Canon or Nikon battery that hides in the grip.

Soon even REDs and Arris will have small batteries as their processing efficiency increases.

You see how thin laptops have become? That is all due to lower power consumption.

Same trend is seen across all semiconductor technology.

11 -The ergonomics and size of an 8K cinema camera to shoot stills vs the ergonomics of a DSLR for shooting stills.

Who says what Panasonic, etc. will produce will be huge? Might be a GH4 style body!

12 -The huge cost increase in camera price and storage and power and processing

Cost of storage is actually coming DOWN.

[Jimmy]

How I think this would work, in still mode.... have x amount of seconds of 8K video (compressed raw) constantly rolling into the buffer, but allow the photographer to use the shutter to pick the moment with the shutter, storing the previous X seconds of video and the X seconds of video after the shutter press. This would give the photographer that passion to capture the moment, would create the excitement of the shutter that models feed off, but also give a short "video frame burst" to run through in post that would almost certainly contain the perfect moment (probably within a millisecond before or after the shutter click). It could also store a raw still image of the exact moment the shutter is pressed too.

That's a feature I would love.

[tusoli5]

Well this asks many questions indeed...

-When could we be sure 8k video will match 8k photography depth of color in stills ?

-Will it start a new rush for resolution and depth in photography ?

-Won't it destroy a certain market of very separate cameras for professionnal stills and videos ?

-What would be the use of cine lenses on these types of cameras, wouldn't it need a unified standard ?

A burst mode  in a "video-like" quality is indeed very interesting, but if it goes beyond "burst mode", this is quite groundbreaking for every companies market standards.

For me, a leap forward in color depth quality is really what I am waiting for too long.
Couldn't photography go up to 24/36bits for the same 8k raw stills while 8k/4k/hd unify around 16bits videos at first ?

It is obvious that a quality merge between video and stills use is to come and this will change a lot the market industry for stills and film.

For celluloïd it was its cost in frames and development that built this so obvious difference between shooting with a still camera and a panavision for sports events.
But, now that this cost of storage doesn't come any closer to what it used to be, the technology will shift as much as the market... 
Which brings another question

Will its use follow for real or only for a while?

It seems great to see but scarry to imagine for companies to stay alive with so much possibilities to make the wrong choice to produce profits on their investment when they launch this type of flagship technology.

[Jimmy]

For me, motion stills, even as a frame burst, wont ever be a consideration until someone uses something like Cineform Raw or REDcode... I wonder what filesize 8K lossless cineform raw would be with a burst of, say, 5 seconds?

[tusoli5]

For me, motion stills, even as a frame burst, wont ever be a consideration until someone uses something like Cineform Raw or REDcode... I wonder what filesize 8K lossless cineform raw would be with a burst of, say, 5 seconds?

I  totaly agree, until the storage reach a new consistency, like TB becoming as easy to produce as GB nowadays.  Storage is really the weak spot for us all since a few years, as well for filming and for stills.

A few weeks ago I read that the new record for storage comes from a 16To ssd... If we go shooting 8k burst in 16bits raw 4444, we'll need much more than that very quickly !

[Jimmy]

4K CineForm RAW is generally in the range of 30MB/sec to 50 MB/sec. So 8K would be 120MB/sec to 200MB/sec

At the lower ended, that seems fairly manageable for a 5 second burst.

[Marco Tecno]

The hw part that is evolving the most in these times are the ssd. Imo in three years from now we'll have some very fast ssd to be connected via super fast interfaces to video cameras. 500+ mb/sec will becone common and also big capacities, say 3+ tb for about 300€.

 

Of course those won't be sd cards...

[joema]

"In the stills world very few photographers are plucking 8MP stills from 4K video and I don’t detect much enthusiasm for it either."

That may be true in general, but note -- all these magazine covers are frame grabs from a video camera: 

http://www.red.com/shot-on-red/photography