Poll... STARWARS WILL BE RUBBISH?

[Phil A]

We wanted to go Friday... then Sunday... now next week. It turned out my girlfriend hasn't seen episodes V and VI so I make her watch those before but she keeps falling asleep when watching movies on the sofa and we have to postpone cinema more and more. Managed V on the third try, will watch VI some time this week and then the new one hopefully on the weekend. I've luckily managed to avoid all spoilers so far.

Just came to my mind: We watched Episode V streamed via Amazon Instant Video and the amount of banding that was in that compressed codec was incredible. It's kinda like when you put in a lot of love into editing a video and then upload to Facebook or Instagram.

[AaronChicago]

So I ended up seeing it 3 times this weekend. 2D digital was my favorite. It just didn't feel like I was a kid again with Star Wars in IMAX 3D.

 

 

SPOILER:

Third time around I noticed Obi Wan's voice in Rey's vision with the lighsaber.

 

[silvertonesx24]

Really great moviegoing experience: cheers and applause from the audience, a great atmosphere. And the film totally earned it, I feel. Yeah, the plot is quite similar to Ep. IV but they nailed the characters, I cared for 'em and the film is just good fun. Very much looking forward to the next one.

Not sure how to discuss this without spoilers, but I thought the character writing/development was abysmal.

It was good fun for sure. But far from transcendental cinema, just another JJ Abrams remix.

[Oliver Daniel]

I enjoyed it, however, I'm finding myself getting less and less impressed with mega blockbusters, no matter how good the visual effects wizardry is. I think I'll put this down to desensitisation.

Most mega blockbusters have the same plot. Get a team of people together to beat evil, lose throughout the film, and win at the last second, just as everything blows up. Again. I find myself much preferring the Netflix Marvel series (Daredevil, Jessica Jones) above their mega big budget siblings. There's a lot more story and risk to enjoy. They feel more real. 

Despite my blockbuster grumblings, Star Wars Ep. 7 was very well done and it's great to see vulnerability in all the characters, and plenty of humour. Everyone sounds and looks ridiculous...probably my favourite thing about Star Wars.  

It makes the prequels look absolutely shockingly dire. 

[agolex]

Loved the first 40 or so minutes. Until someone removed something. 

[AaronChicago]

Not sure how to discuss this without spoilers, but I thought the character writing/development was abysmal.

It was good fun for sure. But far from transcendental cinema, just another JJ Abrams remix.

I'd disagree. Think of ANH on it's own. You have no idea who any of the characters are in the grand scheme of the galaxy. It's not until Empire and ROTJ you find out some of the character's intentions/flaws/connections. I think it'll be intriguing as a new trilogy.

[silvertonesx24]

I'd disagree. Think of ANH on it's own. You have no idea who any of the characters are in the grand scheme of the galaxy. It's not until Empire and ROTJ you find out some of the character's intentions/flaws/connections. I think it'll be intriguing as a new trilogy.

In ANH, the hero is so flawed to the point where he has to be bailed out several times by others, is extremely inexperienced, and has no hope of defeating the villain head on. People he loves have to fight and die for him to keep going. It takes another full movie of experience and training to build up to the point where he can even face the villain himself (plus his own internal temptations and fears), and even then he is still more or less toyed with by Vader. That two-film long character development is what makes the end of ESB so incredible.

Flawed, conflicted heros make for great cinema storytelling. Watching those characters on a journey to overcome their flaws while having to make great sacrifices along the way is what makes trilogies like the original Star Wars so great.

The hero of TFA is an instant ace at literally everything she picks up, and defeats the villain at the end without any sacrifices made along the way. If this were an original, standalone film with no universe of canon to respect and no continuing storyline, that would be less of an issue, but it's not.

[AaronChicago]

In ANH, the hero is so flawed to the point where he has to be bailed out several times by others, is extremely inexperienced, and has no hope of defeating the villain head on. People he loves have to fight and die for him to keep going. It takes another full movie of experience and training to build up to the point where he can even face the villain himself (plus his own internal temptations and fears), and even then he is still more or less toyed with by Vader. That two-film long character development is what makes the end of ESB so incredible.

Flawed, conflicted heros make for great cinema storytelling. Watching those characters on a journey to overcome their flaws while having to make great sacrifices along the way is what makes trilogies like the original Star Wars so great.

The hero of TFA is an instant ace at literally everything she picks up, and defeats the villain at the end without any sacrifices made along the way. If this were an original, standalone film with no universe of canon to respect and no continuing storyline, that would be less of an issue, but it's not.

True about ANH, but I think alot of people are thinking TFA is going to be the same storylines as the originals. We already see Kylo Ren making rash decisions that Vader would never make (killing a family member). He has potential to be a whole new character that we haven't seen. Rey is conveniently awesome at The Force but we don't know why yet. She could be something special that's explained later. I'm not saying that after episode VII, VIII, and IX we'll have a perfect story, but maybe.

[homestar_kevin]

*Spoliers* but really, who's reading this that hasn't seen it? Shame on you!

 

I agree about the flaws with Luke in ANH, but I don't think you can do the same thing with rey in TFA. People are already speaking to how similar TFA and ANH are, do you really want the protagonist to have an even closer ark to Luke in ANH?

I think rey was established in the beginning as a capable Melee fighter, even if it's just against some punks. I also understand that kylo ren is miles above anything she's faced before, but when they fight he's also damaged goods, not just from Chewie's bowcaster (which is much more powerful in this film) and Finn's hit or two with the lightsaber.

She is also losing that fight until she's reminded of the force and let's go, trusting herself to the force.

 

I'm excited to see rey's journey going forward and think there's still enough conflict or other driving factors to show her growth, as well as kylo ren's growth, in the later films

[silvertonesx24]

I get that they were already copying ANH too much, but that doesn't excuse giving your hero absolutely no flaws at all. She could have had different flaws than Luke, or a different challenge. Something more than, I'm just too awesome at everything I pick up, everyone loves me, and by the end of the first movie I've already taken down the big bad (albeit injured) villian who had both Vader/Skywalker blood and 15 years of training under the best.

Side note: I also found it pretty ludicrous that Ren didn't make immediate mincemeat of a sanitation Stormtrooper.

I also agree that there is room in the sequels for explanation, development, fleshing out backstory etc, but I really don't think you should be sacrificing character development for future story arcs. If it turns out that she's so awesome because she's a Skywalker, fine, but...so? What next? Unlikely there's a protagonist/antagonist switch ala Breaking Bad, so where on earth does the flawless triumphant hero go from here? Ren can never logically be a formidable opponent any longer, especially as she's now with Luke.

Yes, this is a Disney movie and Disney care a lot less about what wannabe filmmakers on EOSHD think about things like character development than how many toys and merch tie-ins they can sell to little kids. Plus, there is the whole ADD audience not wanting to wait 5 years and 2+movies to watch the hero win a lightsaber battle like the OT.

But it's just so far behind the original trilogy, I can't understand how people are putting it on that level, or why they rave about the characters.

 

[Zak Forsman]

boring conversation anyway...

[homestar_kevin]

I get that they were already copying ANH too much, but that doesn't excuse giving your hero absolutely no flaws at all. She could have had different flaws than Luke, or a different challenge. Something more than, I'm just too awesome at everything I pick up, everyone loves me, and by the end of the first movie I've already taken down the big bad (albeit injured) villian who had both Vader/Skywalker blood and 15 years of training under the best.

Side note: I also found it pretty ludicrous that Ren didn't make immediate mincemeat of a sanitation Stormtrooper.

I also agree that there is room in the sequels for explanation, development, fleshing out backstory etc, but I really don't think you should be sacrificing character development for future story arcs. If it turns out that she's so awesome because she's a Skywalker, fine, but...so? What next? Unlikely there's a protagonist/antagonist switch ala Breaking Bad, so where on earth does the flawless triumphant hero go from here? Ren can never logically be a formidable opponent any longer, especially as she's now with Luke.

Yes, this is a Disney movie and Disney care a lot less about what wannabe filmmakers on EOSHD think about things like character development than how many toys and merch tie-ins they can sell to little kids. Plus, there is the whole ADD audience not wanting to wait 5 years and 2+movies to watch the hero win a lightsaber battle like the OT.

But it's just so far behind the original trilogy, I can't understand how people are putting it on that level, or why they rave about the characters.

 

I do think rey should have more shortcomings, and I think those will come out in episode VIII.

I think what works well in TFA is the set up for future confrontation. She downed an injured Ren, but he's far from dead. Skywalker/vader blood is the same thing, and he's clearly not the only one possessing it....

Also, we know nothing of Kylo Ren's training other than he ruined Luke's new jedi group. We know nothing of any training ren has received in the interim.

Snoke at the end of TFA calls for ren's final training to begin, so clearly both he and rey are going to be coached up a lot setting the stage for another confrontation, both with new insights and challenges presented. Ren is the only formidable opponent. They're both pupils.

Starwars and merchandising have literally ALWAYS gone hand in hand, really merch has ALWAYS come before the stories, or at least since they found out people will buy any of it and all of it.

I don't have TFA above any of the originals, but I do have it above all of the prequels already. Not an earth shattering statement there, but it's still already carved a place in the franchise for me and I'm really excited to see where it goes.

The really exciting part for me is that rey is the least exciting character so far. poe, ren, hux, and fin are all fantastic and I can't see what legacy they all leave

[silvertonesx24]

boring conversation anyway...

Wow, great contribution. Keep em coming

[The Chris]

I get that they were already copying ANH too much, but that doesn't excuse giving your hero absolutely no flaws at all. She could have had different flaws than Luke, or a different challenge. Something more than, I'm just too awesome at everything I pick up, everyone loves me, and by the end of the first movie I've already taken down the big bad (albeit injured) villian who had both Vader/Skywalker blood and 15 years of training under the best.

Side note: I also found it pretty ludicrous that Ren didn't make immediate mincemeat of a sanitation Stormtrooper.

I also agree that there is room in the sequels for explanation, development, fleshing out backstory etc, but I really don't think you should be sacrificing character development for future story arcs. If it turns out that she's so awesome because she's a Skywalker, fine, but...so? What next? Unlikely there's a protagonist/antagonist switch ala Breaking Bad, so where on earth does the flawless triumphant hero go from here? Ren can never logically be a formidable opponent any longer, especially as she's now with Luke.

Yes, this is a Disney movie and Disney care a lot less about what wannabe filmmakers on EOSHD think about things like character development than how many toys and merch tie-ins they can sell to little kids. Plus, there is the whole ADD audience not wanting to wait 5 years and 2+movies to watch the hero win a lightsaber battle like the OT.

But it's just so far behind the original trilogy, I can't understand how people are putting it on that level, or why they rave about the characters.

 

Agreed. Since people are talking a little more, the main problem I had with the movie was that it just throws everything at you without any hint of a story, nothing about Han and Leia in the last 30 years, a sentence about Luke, the contrived moment on the bridge, a bunch of shallow characters with no depth - and they don't bat an eye at the destruction the First Order throws their way. Obi Wan felt a great disturbance, these guys - nothing. Geez. I know there's only so much you can do without it being 4 hours long, but since we all went in expecting a film that's setting up the next two, how about a little more backstory with Rey, Ren and the others? But that's not JJ's strong suit judging by the Star Trek films.

That said it was fun to watch, even though it was pretty easy to tell the big gasp moment was coming about 30 or 40 minutes in. Hopefully we'll get a Empire quality movie in Ep.8.

[silvertonesx24]

I do think rey should have more shortcomings, and I think those will come out in episode VIII.
I think what works well in TFA is the set up for future confrontation. She downed an injured Ren, but he's far from dead. Skywalker/vader blood is the same thing, and he's clearly not the only one possessing it....

Also, we know nothing of Kylo Ren's training other than he ruined Luke's new jedi group. We know nothing of any training ren has received in the interim.

Snoke at the end of TFA calls for ren's final training to begin, so clearly both he and rey are going to be coached up a lot setting the stage for another confrontation, both with new insights and challenges presented. Ren is the only formidable opponent. They're both pupils.

Starwars and merchandising have literally ALWAYS gone hand in hand, really merch has ALWAYS come before the stories, or at least since they found out people will buy any of it and all of it.

I don't have TFA above any of the originals, but I do have it above all of the prequels already. Not an earth shattering statement there, but it's still already carved a place in the franchise for me and I'm really excited to see where it goes.

The really exciting part for me is that rey is the least exciting character so far. poe, ren, hux, and fin are all fantastic and I can't see what legacy they all leave

I agree that there is plenty of room for the next films. I know I'd be much more excited to see the next ones had Rey actually used every ounce of strength she had to hold off Ren and just got away at the last second, and maybe the Death Star..er Starkiller did end up firing off as well, killing her home, and thus setting up some strong motivations for her to train with Luke and seek retribution.

Agreed. Since people are talking a little more, the main problem I had with the movie was that it just throws everything at you without any hint of a story, nothing about Han and Leia in the last 30 years, a sentence about Luke, the contrived moment on the bridge, a bunch of shallow characters with no depth - and they don't bat an eye at the destruction the First Order throws their way. Obi Wan felt a great disturbance, these guys - nothing. Geez. I know there's only so much you can do without it being 4 hours long, but since we all went in expecting a film that's setting up the next two, how about a little more backstory with Rey, Ren and the others? But that's not JJ's strong suit judging by the Star Trek films.

That said it was fun to watch, even though it was pretty easy to tell the big gasp moment was coming about 30 or 40 minutes in. Hopefully we'll get a Empire quality movie in Ep.8.

I agree re: the backstory. Perhaps I need to check it out again, but the motivations of The First Order, The Resistance, and The Republic were pretty hazy. All completely separate factions? Why isn't the Republic fighting the First Order? Why the Resistance, and against what? Less chase scenes, and a bit more back story.

[Cinegain]

I watched it this evening. I liked it more than I thought I would, so yay! for going in with temperate expectations. And at the one hand I liked the humor they've added in too, at the other hand, maybe it was a little too much for a Star Wars movie?

Did notice that some of the shots, especially with gotten-old-Leia for some reason (maybe she didn't like how she aged and she'd only be in it with a softened image) were a bit out of focus, as I saw mentioned before. Overall pretty great though! Looking forward to the next.

[Zak Forsman]

Wow, great contribution. Keep em coming

[AaronChicago]

I get that they were already copying ANH too much, but that doesn't excuse giving your hero absolutely no flaws at all. She could have had different flaws than Luke, or a different challenge. Something more than, I'm just too awesome at everything I pick up, everyone loves me, and by the end of the first movie I've already taken down the big bad (albeit injured) villian who had both Vader/Skywalker blood and 15 years of training under the best.

Side note: I also found it pretty ludicrous that Ren didn't make immediate mincemeat of a sanitation Stormtrooper.

I also agree that there is room in the sequels for explanation, development, fleshing out backstory etc, but I really don't think you should be sacrificing character development for future story arcs. If it turns out that she's so awesome because she's a Skywalker, fine, but...so? What next? Unlikely there's a protagonist/antagonist switch ala Breaking Bad, so where on earth does the flawless triumphant hero go from here? Ren can never logically be a formidable opponent any longer, especially as she's now with Luke.

Yes, this is a Disney movie and Disney care a lot less about what wannabe filmmakers on EOSHD think about things like character development than how many toys and merch tie-ins they can sell to little kids. Plus, there is the whole ADD audience not wanting to wait 5 years and 2+movies to watch the hero win a lightsaber battle like the OT.

But it's just so far behind the original trilogy, I can't understand how people are putting it on that level, or why they rave about the characters.

 

I respect your opinion and agree with some of it. But I'll say this and move on: Luke didn't destroy the Empire or defeat Vader in ANH. Rey doesn't defeat Kylo Ren in TFA. She puts up a good fight and cuts his arm. We'll learn backstory in the next 2 films regarding the gap between ROTJ and TFA I'm sure.