Red One MX - Why I bought one

[enny]

Mattias i love you videos man and you voice one of the best in you tube so dam relaxing So now with red mx are we gonna see some serious production.

[Mattias Burling]

Mattias i love you videos man and you voice one of the best in you tube so dam relaxing So now with red mx are we gonna see some serious production.

Wont use it much for work I think and if I did, not allowed to share. But I just finished a doc made with mostly BMD and have started preproduction on the next. 

Glad you like the channel

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

I am always the devil's advocate, I think it gives perspective and offers benefit to passerbying viewers. 

The Red One is an outdated camera. I've shot it when it was hot, and it was indeed hot, a long time ago (in technology terms). 

The image sensor is now new technology. It's one of the noisiest large sensor cameras out there. Never push it to 800+, never, not in post or in-camera. Tge dynamic range is pretty average, 11-12 stops at best with noisy shadows. This is a datlight camera or extremely lit studios/sets. Light goes down, even a 1.2 lens isn't enough to make it a ''good'' lowlight shooter at night. In fact the Blackmagic 4K which is widely k own for bad ISO performance is a goof margin better and can be pushed in post to effective 1600 and stil make an acceptable image. 

The camera's weight and size and casing and accessories (which are essential) turn out being a bohemous of a camera without much if any benefit over a modern camera. 

It takes A LOT to turn ON. Just ON. Not a big deal? It is, wht? becasue it consumes SO MUCH power you'll need to keep it off among takes as best as possible. 

The colour redcode raw codec is a compressed format, not raw sensor data. At lowest compression levels you get ENORMOUS hunger for media, and with a high compression setting raw it's visually worse than ProRes on a modern camera and leas gradeavle too due to the sensor noise and highlights. 

 

The fan, lack of NDs, lack of internal monitor, all that trouble you go through just to be shooting on the red brand for what? 

Perhaps a new Blackmagic 4K camera offers a better image quality and usability on all levels, especially a 2999 Mini URSA. A global shutter 4K 12 stops sensor with better lowlight and extremely filmic results and raw plus prores. Plus built in mo itor and new age technologies. What made us put up with the red One is because it was the only 4K high bit rate s35 camera out there, but now, after so many newer smaller cheaper lighter faster prettier imagers have been made, is there really a point in buying one? 

 

I say no. It doean t have a specia voodoo like an f35 image, it'a just a good image with high detail, good coloura, fine DR and tona of usabilitity issues in the mass of it being a film replacement. 

There's a reason why the seller gave it up to you at such low coat. He found a cheaper and better device. Much better actually now in 2016. 

[mercer]

I think the image looks great. You don't buy a Red One because you want to shoot in lowlight, above 800 ISO. And at that price, Mattias could shoot one side job with it and it would pay for the camera. But I assume he has other plans. 

[Andrew Reid]

Perhaps a new Blackmagic 4K camera offers a better image quality and usability on all levels, especially a 2999 Mini URSA. A global shutter 4K 12 stops sensor with better lowlight and extremely filmic results and raw plus prores. Plus built in mo itor and new age technologies. What made us put up with the red One is because it was the only 4K high bit rate s35 camera out there, but now, after so many newer smaller cheaper lighter faster prettier imagers have been made, is there really a point in buying one?

I agree.

But the one thing the RED MX does have going for it is the raw codec. It's much nicer to work with than Cinema DNG and offers a much larger range of compression settings.

[Mattias Burling]

I agree.

But the one thing the RED MX does have going for it is the raw codec. It's much nicer to work with than Cinema DNG and offers a much larger range of compression settings.

And in my opinion a better image. Ive had the BMPC4K, its also my favorite Blackmagic (same look as the mini 4K). But no way would I ever describe it as filmic. Plus it has lower dynamic range and needs difusion to look good. Not to mention the no above ISO400 zone.

Another reason why I didn't get the URSA mini 4K is of course that it cost twice as much

[Mattias Burling]

I am always the devil's advocate, I think it gives perspective and offers benefit to passerbying viewers. 

The Red One is an outdated camera. I've shot it when it was hot, and it was indeed hot, a long time ago (in technology terms). 

The image sensor is now new technology. It's one of the noisiest large sensor cameras out there. Never push it to 800+, never, not in post or in-camera. Tge dynamic range is pretty average, 11-12 stops at best with noisy shadows. This is a datlight camera or extremely lit studios/sets. Light goes down, even a 1.2 lens isn't enough to make it a ''good'' lowlight shooter at night. In fact the Blackmagic 4K which is widely k own for bad ISO performance is a goof margin better and can be pushed in post to effective 1600 and stil make an acceptable image. 

The camera's weight and size and casing and accessories (which are essential) turn out being a bohemous of a camera without much if any benefit over a modern camera. 

It takes A LOT to turn ON. Just ON. Not a big deal? It is, wht? becasue it consumes SO MUCH power you'll need to keep it off among takes as best as possible. 

The colour redcode raw codec is a compressed format, not raw sensor data. At lowest compression levels you get ENORMOUS hunger for media, and with a high compression setting raw it's visually worse than ProRes on a modern camera and leas gradeavle too due to the sensor noise and highlights. 

 

The fan, lack of NDs, lack of internal monitor, all that trouble you go through just to be shooting on the red brand for what? 

Perhaps a new Blackmagic 4K camera offers a better image quality and usability on all levels, especially a 2999 Mini URSA. A global shutter 4K 12 stops sensor with better lowlight and extremely filmic results and raw plus prores. Plus built in mo itor and new age technologies. What made us put up with the red One is because it was the only 4K high bit rate s35 camera out there, but now, after so many newer smaller cheaper lighter faster prettier imagers have been made, is there really a point in buying one? 

 

I say no. It doean t have a specia voodoo like an f35 image, it'a just a good image with high detail, good coloura, fine DR and tona of usabilitity issues in the mass of it being a film replacement. 

There's a reason why the seller gave it up to you at such low coat. He found a cheaper and better device. Much better actually now in 2016. 

Nice write up. And please, this is in no way a "defense", Im happy people don't like it. Thats why I could get is so cheap

But a few thoughts as answers to why I, even though I knew everything Ebrahim says before buying it, still went ahead.

• All clips in my video are ISO +800 pushed. Doesn't look noisy to me.
• The number of stops depends on what you compare to. I have decided to rate the BMCC at 13. Which means the XC10 has 12. And the R1 has in my experience more than the Canon. I will do a side by side with the BMCC. But what Ive seen so far makes me guess 13. Anyway, will know tomorrow.
• Power isn't a problem for me. Its like any other camera to me and the way I shot.
• The codec is what finally made me buy it. I takes up almost no space/quality, is super easy to work with and I just like it.
• The fan is very quite. Feels nice compared to the noisy BMCC.
• ND, again, business as usua (ursa mini includedl.
• Regarding the URSA mini 4K, I didn't want it since its lower DR, not what I consider "filmic", twice as expensive, no red code and I just don't se it when a BMPC4K can be had for so much less. After the URSA 4.6K is out I suspect I can pick up a BMPC4K for just over 1K. And of course the no above iso400 zone.

And here is what it all as usual comes down to. Taste. I agree, the F35 has more mojo. But I definitely put the R1 in the top together with the f35, Bolex, Ikonoskop and... ... Don't really know any more.
To me the R1 is the most filmic of all Reds so far. The BMCC has its color/DR but the Moire and the "digitalish" sharpening thing that happens in debayer is often needed to be fought imo. The URSA mini 4K needs a difusion so bad its crazy.

To give an example. As I write this my girlfriend started watching my Bluray copy of "The Hurt Locker". Its shot on the same 16mm Fuji stock I have sitting n my freezer. This image is to me the absolute bench mark. It is what I consider "best". The super sharp NX1, BMPC4K, any of the Sonys, you name it, can't touch it. Its the utopia. Not even 35mm looks as good imo.
So you can imagine why the R1 is a better choice for me.

(only time I didn't like the image in Hurt Locker so far was the massive moire from the digital Phantom during the first high speed footage. Where up at the Sniper scene now. Intense stuff... Love the long canon zoom lenses they used also. Thats why I shoot long on the BMPCC. Drifting of topic here....)

Also reason number 1 in my top 5 list was simply that its "fun" and "cool"

Again not ment as a defense or argument, just my thoughts. Im well aware that Ebrahim only speaks for himself and know as well as I do that every single camera has flaws, deal brakers and major let downs... depending on who you ask.

A heavy camera to one is stable to another. A GoPro kicks the Alexas ass for diving but falls short for feature. Both of them gets smashed by the Phantom in the slow department. The list can go on forever.

/M

 

 

[Volker Schmidt]

I´am not a fan of the marketing thing of RED: The company logo, the military-productnames...etc.
But here, the image is simply: "big cinema"! -  for a low price! 
No need, to talk that bad:).

Definetly a camera to make a nice-looking feature film!

 

[Andrew Reid]

It is great for what it is.

Of course there are a few things that it isn't... for example it's not a lightweight solution to carry around a location or a quick to start up point / shoot / done kind of camera. It's the kind of camera to bring onto a set for hours, a labour of love, getting the lighting right and really taking time over it. It will be very rewarding! Same in post!

A slow camera but a great one.

[Volker Schmidt]

Absolute!:)

[Mattias Burling]

Yup, if only the perfect all in one could be invented soon. Maybe CES 2016

In the meantime, If anybody that haven't experienced Red Raw, here is a clip.
Its 4.5K in R28. So pretty big compared to the smaller HD files. And imo pretty cool for the highest compression.
You can use Resolve but if you have Final Cut I sugest installing the free plugin from Reds web page. Then you will find the raw settings under the info tab of the clip on your timeline.

I have so far used that for correcting or just switching the Raw to Log. The graded with what ever like Color Finalle, etc.

http://www.filedropper.com/a165c0190101j8rdc

[fuzzynormal]

Honestly, I think film cameras are easier to shoot with than with the RED.  

I've never been particularly enamored when using one, as it's a fussy thing.  That slow boot up is so frustrating.

But, at that price, I'd buy it if I was going to make a certain type of short narrative film or a feature.

Because the thing demands light, it does force one to be more considerate.  I mean, you really have a narrow range of ISO.  That can be a plus, depending on what you're trying to do. 

[Mattias Burling]

Its like the BMCC or BMPCC. I put it at ISO800 and stick to it. Cant think of any time I would change that. Its what Ive been doing the last years so when I get a camera that needs fiddling with the ISO it feels a bit strange.

Maybe thats why I enjoy film as well. The Iso is on the box, not much you can do about it

[Andrew Reid]

Nice to have one less thing to think about during a shoot. ISO? Ah don't care. Very liberating

It's why the FS5 is nicer to use than the A7S II. You just stick it in S-LOG at the base ISO of 3200 and 1/50, then use the variable ND filter for all your exposure adjustments. One control suits all.

[Mattias Burling]

Nice to have one less thing to think about during a shoot. ISO? Ah don't care. Very liberating

It's why the FS5 is nicer to use than the A7S II. You just stick it in S-LOG at the base ISO of 3200 and 1/50, then use the variable ND filter for all your exposure adjustments. One control suits all.

This guy knows what Im talking about

Also changing aperture or ND is either as quick of a move as focusing on the lens, or in your case the wheel.
We can set the cameras, ISO is static, fps is static, shutter stuck at 180 degrees.

Everything else is external, physical controls. Just like film.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Nice write up. And please, this is in no way a "defense", Im happy people don't like it. Thats why I could get is so cheap

This is no defense too. I would actually get the Red if I found one at that sb 4000$,just to own a RED in my company's image. So again I am just playing the counter-act in all the forum topics, to give perspective.

What's the modern equivalent to your recently acquired Red One for a similar cost and how do they compare? 

1- It has to be a camcorder/cinema shape design body vs DSLR/MILC

2- High 4K resolution 

3- High colour depth and RAW

4- Takes F-mount lenses 

5- ALL pro connections. Inputs & otputs.

 

 

Three modern cameras comply:

 

1- Blackmagic Ursa Mini 4K 

 

4K, 12 stops DR, RAW, 12bit, better mount (and uses IS/IRIS), 120p, smaller, internal touch 5" monitor, instantaneous power-on, hand grip, less power, ProRes XQ444 & all flavours, Compressed raw, 12g-sdi & 4k HDMI, internal sound, Da Vinci Resolve Studio, 3D LUTs, 

= 2995$, 4000$ for power and Cards. 

This one is really seeming like the spiritual successor, being a Raw basic-ISO cinema-style camera with all the professional connections and moddular approach, just modern. 

(or of course the 4995$ 4.6K 15 stops, 850 Base ISO model)

 

2- AJA CION:

if you like it. They squeeze a better DR and noise performance from the Ursa sensor (very clean pushable shadows) and output raw 120p, integrated shoulder pad, interchangeable mounts, ProRes XQ444, 3D LUTs

=4995$ 

Also seems like a spiritual successor. 

 

3- KineMini 4K 

-4K, 13 stops, S35, 120p, 240p, Internal 12bit RAW, compressed RAW, CineformRGB444 , 3K 4:3 anamorphic, S16 2K, active EF-mount (locking), 3D LUTs, Standard cheap SSDs, EVF, side grip, 800 base ISO up to 25600 ISO,

=4600$

Also same philosophy. Even looks like a RED Epic

 

***People buying a used RED ONE wanting a film/studio workhorse must take a deep look into these three cameras (new, with warranty) vs a used beaten RED ONE package/price (usually goes at 5000$-6000$). And if they have no ''need'' for raw and/or 4K, of course it opens up to a whole lot more 1DC, C100, C100II, FS5, LS300, C300, FS700, F3, F35, but lets keep it at raw 4k film cameras under 5000$. 
 

@Mattias Keep us updated on the Red one. I know the image, rich in light. So how the usability & ergonomics are after we've been using modern cameras is what interests me most. Do you keep in sticks, media/bettery time, ingestion, weight burden, and just one thing I curious about is dynamic range vs a known camera (XC10/BMCC/Pocket)

 

[Mattias Burling]

All three great cameras, just a bit pricy compared to the R1 (all more than twice the cost if bought new in Sweden, and no used once out yet).

And also I would probably never choose the Aja or Mini 4K over a dirt cheap fully rigged bmpc4k (same image). Which by the way will seriosly drop soon.

The Kinemini seems cool but I hear very mixed things, so one should as you say, look deep.

An me personally, if I had that kind of money, F35 all the way

[Emanuel]

F35 is a myth. 4.6K all the way.

It doesn't make sense except to those who don't care to spend their precious time (= money) to sell something they've learned to love.

[Mattias Burling]

Imo the f35 is the best digital look out there.

[Andrew Reid]

Of the alternatives Ebrahim selected the URSA Mini appeals the most as the 'complete' solution, but the power consumption will be mighty high compared to the FS5. It's great being able to run the FS5 off a camcorder battery and having it weight well under 1.5kg fully rigged out ready to shoot. The URSA Mini 4.6K will be at 2.3kg plus another 3kg for all the bits you will need to add to it - the V-lock battery is a big chunk of that.

I wish Blackmagic would do an URSA Super Mini 2.5K which would be the old BMCC updated to a nice form factor with less power hungry cooling etc. running off a small battery. I loved that image. Oh and should get 2.5K ProRes and full 4:3 scan for higher vertical res and anamorphic.

I find it a chore to carry a very heavy rig around on foot over wide distances in a city. It really slows down a shoot unless you have a crew.