Will taking lens change flare characteristics?

[danreddingvideo]

I'm shooting on a Kowa 8Z and am currently using a Helios 44-2 58 F2 as a taking lens.  I've found it surprisingly hard to get flares that resemble the classic anamorphic streaky look..  I've only really taken it out on one shoot, but I've had a play around with is quite a bit and a mate mentioned that the taking lenses will (obviously) influence the shot looks, but I wondered if changing the taking lens would change the flare characteristics substantially?   

Like I say, I've only taken it out once and I was pointing it right into the light most of the time (video below), although obviously not on the silly grade time lapses.  

I've been hunting around on ebay and am considering the following, but can anyone tell me how much difference they're going to make, or show me some footage from a similar set-up?  I'm not unhappy with the Helios, and perhaps it's not flaring because of LED lights in squares, instead of one focussed light source...

Potential Lenses:

Rokkor 58 1.2 or 1.4

Jupiter 9 85 F2

Carl Zeiss Jenna 80 F2.8

Reckon these are worth the investment, or will it make no difference?

[Rudolf]

I don't know the classic anamorphic streaky look. The Helios is great with the Kowa and the Jupiter 85mm is a perfect addition (they are very prone to flares). If you choose a modern multicoated lens there is much less flare. The thing is though that anamorphics were not invented to produce flares or oval bokeh. They determine the composition and you can shoot with longer lens and get more shallow depth. It is a matter of the subject if you go the anamorphic route or not. But nowadays nearly everything is shot/cropped in 2.40. Not sure if even L. Trier does it now instead of his dogmas (didn't he say they are obsolete?) 

[danreddingvideo]

I don't know the classic anamorphic streaky look. The Helios is great with the Kowa and the Jupiter 85mm is a perfect addition (they are very prone to flares). If you choose a modern multicoated lens there is much less flare. The thing is though that anamorphics were not invented to produce flares or oval bokeh. They determine the composition and you can shoot with longer lens and get more shallow depth. It is a matter of the subject if you go the anamorphic route or not. But nowadays nearly everything is shot/cropped in 2.40. Not sure if even L. Trier does it now instead of his dogmas (didn't he say they are obsolete?) 

So I just meant the cliche' long anamorphic flares, by "the streaky look".... Well, personally, I think the real thing looks a million times better than the short cropped digital thing, but maybe I'm just a bit keen as it's all new to me....  I guess it's obvious that the characteristics of the taking lens will show through in the work, but I just wondered how much and how different they are.  I'll buy a jupiter 9 and do a comparison... If nothing else, the different focal lengths would be handy.

[DanC1]

I recently compared the horizontal flare on the Helios to a Nikon 50mm f1.8 both with the Sankor 16c attached. I found the Helios gave a more subtle flare and the Nikon a stronger 'blue line' horizontal flare. 

[danreddingvideo]

I recently compared the horizontal flare on the Helios to a Nikon 50mm f1.8 both with the Sankor 16c attached. I found the Helios gave a more subtle flare and the Nikon a stronger 'blue line' horizontal flare.

Ah, thanks!  Good to know, and another lens to consider.  I was in need of justification to spend my not very hard earned money....  I shall go back to scouring ebay in the quest for another lens to try.   I'll look up the Nikon,,, might be a good shout as hopefully there's a better Nikon to Canon adapter than the M42 ones, which seem a bit loose...

[nahua]

@danreddingvideo You have all good old lenses there.  I have owned all of them and they all flare well.  In fact there's a ton of flaring in your video.  But you're looking for sharp long streaks, and if you want more then you need to look at other lenses.   The older lenses flare because of the old single-coating of the lenses.  But the drawback is that they have a more "smeared" effect and not the sharp lines you're looking for.  Those sharp lines occur more with double or more modern coating on lenses.  But that drawback is you need to have a very very bright lightsource, like the sun.  You can look at some old zooms, like the Tokina 28-80mm F2.8, Nikon 28-80mm F2.8, or something similar.  The more lens elements, the more flaring artifacts there is.  It's hard finding the right combination of taking lens with Anamorphic.

Here's an old test I did with my Kowa B&H 2x (Same as your Kowa 8z).  Strong lights will get the flares you're looking for.  

https://vimeo.com/108202883

[Hans Punk]

I'm shooting on a Kowa 8Z and am currently using a Helios 44-2 58 F2 as a taking lens.  I've found it surprisingly hard to get flares that resemble the classic anamorphic streaky look..  I've only really taken it out on one shoot, but I've had a play around with is quite a bit and a mate mentioned that the taking lenses will (obviously) influence the shot looks, but I wondered if changing the taking lens would change the flare characteristics substantially?   

I've been hunting around on ebay and am considering the following, but can anyone tell me how much difference they're going to make, or show me some footage from a similar set-up?  I'm not unhappy with the Helios, and perhaps it's not flaring because of LED lights in squares, instead of one focussed light source...

I might be completely wrong but it looks like the Helios you have might be the more 'modern' type - has more flare suppression coating on the optics. But it could also be completely due to the light source in the setup. Also if you are shooting smaller than s35 sensor, you will only be capturing part of the Helios' potential for flare - as some of the charm of older Helios models are the 'secondary' rings and rainbows that tend to fall at the edge of the frame. When coupled to anamorphic front, this can greatly add to the overall impact of the 'streak flare.' 

I would expect more flare from an older model such as the 'Zebra' or pre '2' model called simply the 'Helios 44' (simple golden coating) - or the KMZ Helios 44-2 with green and yellow distance markings (this model should compliment your kowa 8z's flare colour the best). These are the better lenses to achieve flares with, as they are the earlier models that have less refined coatings and are more prone to bouncing light inside the optic edges when wide at f2. Having an older model such as the KMZ Helios 44-2 will greatly increase flare when opened up.

Jupiter-9 is a good 85mm pairing to the Helios-44 58mm (again look for older model).Other lenses worth considering (not primarily for 'crazy' flares) are the Pentacon preset type, 14-15 blades ensure circular aperture throughout stops - resulting in constant oval bokeh when paired with your Kowa. The 135mm pentacon f2.8, Meyer Orestor 100mm 2.8 and TAIR-11A 135mm f2.8 are particularly good for anamorphic use. Older Nikkor's flare very nicely, but have fewer aperture blades - so they cut into the oval bokeh quite harshly.Older Olympus OM's are a very good choice too - as they are very sharp, flare is not so pronounced but can easily be acquired to make a nice matched shooting set. 

As for light source, the LED lights in squares will give a blocky diffused streak (as do fluorescent tubes/kino's), best to use a point source (such as the sun for exteriors) or for interiors - a single bright lamp such as a single chip LED desk lamp...or even better a tungsten/halogen light source. A very cheap light to use for some interior shoot's like your example video can be a 'pinspot' - a par-36 lamp that is very pokey and can be easily rigged on a stand or set on the floor to give a shaft of light that you can maneuver to lens in and out of : 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pinspot-PAR-36-30W-Black-Lantern-suitable-for-Mirrorball-Includes-Lamp-Stage-DJ-/181599693906?hash=item2a482f6c52:g:y1kAAOSwGWNUV7Wo

There are LED 'pinspot' versions out there that are also good - that have focusable spots, they are lighter to rig but can flicker at some shutter speeds. (but tungsten lamp tends to give a nicer/more natural look IMHO and almost immune to flicker at most shutter speeds).

[danreddingvideo]

I might be wrong but it looks like the Helios you have might be the more 'modern' type - has better flare suppression coating on the optics. But it could also be due to the light source. Also if you are shooting smaller than s35 sensor, you will only be capturing part of the Helios' potential for flare - as some of the charm of older Helios models are the 'secondary' rings and rainbows that tend to fall at the edge of the frame. When coupled to anamorphic front, this can greatly add to the overall impact of the 'streak flare.' 

I would expect more flare from an older model such as the 'Zebra' or pre '2' model called simply the 'Helios 44' (simple golden coating) - or the KMZ Helios 44-2 with green and yellow distance markings (this model should compliment your kowa 8z's flare colour the best). These are the better lenses to achieve flares with, as they are the earlier models that have less refined coatings and are more prone to bouncing light inside the optic edges when wide at f2. Having an older model such as the KMZ Helios 44-2 will greatly increase flare when opened up.

Other lenses worth considering (not primarily for 'crazy' flares) are the Pentacon preset type, 14-15 blades ensure circular aperture throughout stops - resulting in constant oval bokeh when paired with your Kowa. The 135mm pentacon f2.8, Meyer Orestor 100mm 2.8 and TAIR-11A 135mm f2.8 are particularly good for anamorphic use. 

As for light source, the LED lights in squares will give a blocky diffused streak (as do fluorescent tubes/kino's), best to use a point source (such as the sun for exteriors) or for interiors - a single bright lamp such as a single chip LED desk lamp...or even better a tungsten/halogen light source. A very cheap light to use for some interior shoot's like your example video can be a 'pinspot' - a par-36 lamp that is very pokey and can be easily rigged on a stand or set on the floor to give a shaft of light that you can maneuver to lens in and out of : 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pinspot-PAR-36-30W-Black-Lantern-suitable-for-Mirrorball-Includes-Lamp-Stage-DJ-/181599693906?hash=item2a482f6c52:g:y1kAAOSwGWNUV7Wo

There are LED 'pinspot' versions out there that are also good - that have focusable spots, they are lighter to rig but can flicker at some shutter speeds. (but tungsten lamp tends to give a nicer look IMHO and almost immune to flicker at most shutter speeds).

Thanks for the very comprehensive answer!!  I'm shooting on a GH4, but with the speed booster, so I think I'm cropping at 1.7 ish... I'm also in anamorphic 4:3 mode, so not sure if that effects things too?

I've attached some images of the Helios 44-2... Does the 1st two digits of the serial number reflect the date?  That a good one you reckon?

I'll look into all the lenses you mention!  The lighting advise is VERY useful too..   

 

 

[Hans Punk]

Yep - that is a '74 and should be all good. It must be the light source in the scene that is not pokey enough to flare. Makes sense if it is a LED brick light with multi points of light - especially if diffused. If you are ever looking for another Helios to try, I'd recommend the 'Zebra' Helios 44 with glossy black finish - it's a variation on the theme but can give some nice alternate flare artifacts. Sometimes even getting a cheaper/older Helios that is beaten up a little and has coating wear can actually increase the effects without affecting sharpness.

richg101 on this forum is the guy to talk to regarding all the flavors of Helios 44 and the nuances of every year and factory release.

In addition to recommending the 30w par-36 pinspot, if you want something less powerful yet really lightweight are portable - the Ikea Jansjo LED is a very handy light to rig to fire into the lens and get the results that you were after in your example video. 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00I9A2Z2Y/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0055IVM1I&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=1VJBC9JC5PDQJ7J8FTJ9

 

[Daniel P Redding]

Yep - that is a '74 and should be all good. It must be the light source in the scene that is not pokey enough to flare. Makes sense if it is a LED brick light with multi points of light - especially if diffused. If you are ever looking for another Helios to try, I'd recommend the 'Zebra' Helios 44 with glossy black finish - it's a variation on the theme but can give some nice alternate flare artifacts. Sometimes even getting a cheaper/older Helios that is beaten up a little and has coating wear can actually increase the effects without affecting sharpness.

richg101 on this forum is the guy to talk to regarding all the flavors of Helios 44 and the nuances of every year and factory release.

In addition to recommending the 30w par-36 pinspot, if you want something less powerful yet really lightweight are portable - the Ikea Jansjo LED is a very handy light to rig to fire into the lens and get the results that you were after in your example video. 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00I9A2Z2Y/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0055IVM1I&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=1VJBC9JC5PDQJ7J8FTJ9

 

Thanks again! I've just brought the pin shot par 36 and will do an experiment with it to see how it matches with my usual set up.  Not sure the colour temperature will match, but we will see.  When I get another lens I'll try and buy something else a bit older and more roughed up...  Looking forward to trying out that light, thanks for the advise! 

 

 

[richg101]

I'm shooting on a Kowa 8Z and am currently using a Helios 44-2 58 F2 as a taking lens.  I've found it surprisingly hard to get flares that resemble the classic anamorphic streaky look..  I've only really taken it out on one shoot, but I've had a play around with is quite a bit and a mate mentioned that the taking lenses will (obviously) influence the shot looks, but I wondered if changing the taking lens would change the flare characteristics substantially?   

Like I say, I've only taken it out once and I was pointing it right into the light most of the time (video below), although obviously not on the silly grade time lapses.  

I've been hunting around on ebay and am considering the following, but can anyone tell me how much difference they're going to make, or show me some footage from a similar set-up?  I'm not unhappy with the Helios, and perhaps it's not flaring because of LED lights in squares, instead of one focussed light source...

Potential Lenses:

Rokkor 58 1.2 or 1.4

Jupiter 9 85 F2

Carl Zeiss Jenna 80 F2.8

Reckon these are worth the investment, or will it make no difference?

From watching your video it appears that your taking lens might be flaring up too much and actually masking the effects from the Kowa.  I'd be tempted to suggest looking for a optically perfect helios 44-3. like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rare-MC-HELIOS-44-3-2-58-58mm-f-2-M42-Vintage-Soviet-SLR-USSR-Lens-s-n-9059248-/172052522469?hash=item280f2125e5:g:Jb4AAOSwLN5WiSiW 

these are multi coated.  most are green in their coatings but don't tend to show this in the flaring and the overall contrast from this version will compliment your kowa. and since it won;t flare up as much as your current helios 44-2 you'll seem more of what the kowa is adding to the party.  a pair of clean uv filters positioned up front as well as between the kowa and the taking lens will also help to promote more streaks from the kowa.

finally, be sure to clean your lenses thoroughly with some alcohol based lens cleaner.  the cleaner the optical faces the more obvious the flares will be from the kowa. 

 

 

[Daniel P Redding]

 

From watching your video it appears that your taking lens might be flaring up too much and actually masking the effects from the Kowa.  I'd be tempted to suggest looking for a optically perfect helios 44-3. like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rare-MC-HELIOS-44-3-2-58-58mm-f-2-M42-Vintage-Soviet-SLR-USSR-Lens-s-n-9059248-/172052522469?hash=item280f2125e5:g:Jb4AAOSwLN5WiSiW 

these are multi coated.  most are green in their coatings but don't tend to show this in the flaring and the overall contrast from this version will compliment your kowa. and since it won;t flare up as much as your current helios 44-2 you'll seem more of what the kowa is adding to the party.  a pair of clean uv filters positioned up front as well as between the kowa and the taking lens will also help to promote more streaks from the kowa.

finally, be sure to clean your lenses thoroughly with some alcohol based lens cleaner.  the cleaner the optical faces the more obvious the flares will be from the kowa. 

 

 

ok, I'll get some lens cleaner and add the 44-3 to the list!  If you have any suggestions for longer focal lengths (80 and 135 maybe)  then please let me know! 

[richg101]

definitely a late biometar 80mm/2.8 mc!

[liamlumiere]

 a pair of clean uv filters positioned up front as well as between the kowa and the taking lens will also help to promote more streaks from the kowa. 

Will a variable ND on the front have the same effect?

[Hans Punk]

 

Thanks again! I've just brought the pin shot par 36 and will do an experiment with it to see how it matches with my usual set up.  Not sure the colour temperature will match, but we will see.  When I get another lens I'll try and buy something else a bit older and more roughed up...  Looking forward to trying out that light, thanks for the advise! 

 

 

Par-36 pinspot is a good shout - if you need to match it colour-wise with your existing lights, this can be done cheaply with correction gels. But the tungsten lamp of the Par-36 gives a nice warm hue to the light if mixed with other colour temperature lights...and tends to look nice and natural.

Par-16 'birdie' are also great, a smaller version that accepts very common lamps: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PAR-16-black-spotlight-inc-barn-door-birdie-lighting-240v-window-display-spot-/171564102770?hash=item27f2047472:g:e98AAOSw9NxTsP8

I just did a little test with one of my other pin spot lights (10w LED version) - The one I have is a '4 in one' version (has 4 separate LED chips that can mix to create any colour) Pretty impressive for the price (full colour control,strobe,colour change,DMX control option) - but can be set to constant colour in manual mode too.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RGBW-10W-LED-Beam-Spot-Light-Party-DJ-Stage-Light-Pinspot-Lights-Effect-EU-Plug-/351592456773?hash=item51dc8b2245:g:HqQAAOSwwE5WXA9I

Because the 4 chips are focused by a snoot lens, the beam angle is very tight, and if used to flare the lens - creates different hues in the flare as you pass through it, due to the separate colours being blended (very unique effect). Since it is a very tight beam, one (or more) can be rigged in such a way to create pools of light that you can hunt for with your lens and control flare amount quite precisely. Because the focused light is so intense, you will not have a problem at all with getting streak flare from your Kowa using existing taking lens or even a heavy multi-coated modern lens.

I also noticed that when this intense coloured light hits my Kowa B&H (has golden streak flare in sunlight) - the flare characteristics take on the hue of the lightsource. So I can turn my normal 'gold' flares pretty much any colour blend I wish. Pretty wild results when moving through the beam - but can be tamed by simply choosing a lighter colour blend and/or only partially hitting the lens to pickup a more subtle flare.

('4 in one' LED 10w spotlight - Camera WB set to daylight on above pics)

Nasty highlight clipping in raw stills due to being 10 feet away from source - these things are intense! Sharpness in the streak flare is dependant on focus distance, relative to light source.

 

There is a white light only version of that LED pinspot that i've yet to try - I suspect that it will not have the colour shift through it's beam - since it's a single chip LED fixture.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eyourlife-10W-CREE-Led-Pinspot-Beam-DJ-White-Xmas-Home-Party-CLUB-Stage-Lighting-/121859773447?hash=item1c5f689407:g:zNUAAOSw7NNT9ayD

The Par-36/16 and 10w LED lights seem perfect for motivating lens flares in an interior situation similar to your example video, since they are spots that need not interfere with scenic lighting and can be bought very cheaply.

If streak flare is the aesthetic priority that you would like to achieve, i'd recommend experimenting with cheap spot lights before buying a specific lens - as with the intensity that these lights can produce, even a stopped down Canon L lens will get you a nice streak flare from your Kowa. If you want to introduce more flare (secondary) artifacts to the kowa's streak flare - the Helios you already have is pretty much king at creating all those lovely extra flare effects when wide open - or closed down with a sufficient light source.

 

 

[Bioskop.Inc]

You've got everything you need to make the Kowa flare (Helios is the King), but not with that square light (as Hans has stated) - you'd get better results with the light on your phone. The best light source to make your lens flare (like the ones in Star Trek), is to use a high powered torch.

A few pointers about flare:

ISO/ASA & F/T Stop can all play their role (some cameras produce better flares with High ISO & some with Low ISO - you shouldn't stop down too much on your taking lens).

You can actually focus on the flares (ie. make them sharper/stand out more) & you'll notice that there should be 2 sets of horizontal flares (one closer to your camera & one further away).

You don't have to have the lens pointing directly into the light source to create flares (so the light creating the flare doesn't have to be in shot).

Lastly, practice, experiment & get to know your lens set up.

Oh & if you do start buying other lenses, buy the ones with the Golden-ish tinted coatings for the best/craziest flares.

[Daniel P Redding]

 

thanks to everyone that contributed to this post. I went out and brought a Zeiss 1.8 pancolor and shot this with it last week.  Much happier with the flares I getting now, although I think I could probably find something a bit sharper.  Been looking at a few Nikon 50mm ai 1.4 lenses, but not sure my addiction to buying taking lenses will end there.  Thanks to everyone for their great advice! I want to shoot everything in anamorphic right now!